114 réponses à ce sujet

[soteria]

Double post.

Modifié par soteria, 03 mai 2010 - 03:11 .

[soteria]

Not going to get too into it, but this is completely untrue -- the part about little to no unarmed fighting traditions in Medieval Europe. There are whole books devoted to it.

Sure. Grappling skills are pretty important for anyone who plans to engage in melee, but they still used weapons to kill people. A knife through the visor of a downed man-at-arms is effective, but beating them with your fists is not. What he said wasn't completely untrue, as you say, especially if you consider his point: the fighting styles that developed in Europe do not really resemble the archetypal monk.



I'm really not sure monks fit in the lore. Silent sisters... the one silent sister I saw in game fought with a 2h weapon. I'm all about adding weapon styles like staff or spear, though.

[CybAnt1]

BTW, I will reiterate, just because so far the civilizations of the continent of Thedas appear to mirror European cultures and societies (such as France, Spain, England, and Italy), does not mean the planet of Thedas could not have other continents with other cultures that mirror "our" Orient or Eastern civilizations. (Let alone African ones; no one seems to have yet answered whether Thedas has black people or not. Or is that a politically incorrect question to ask?)



I'm not into this new mindset where "W"RPGs have to segregate Oriental classes or weapons etc and I'm tired of the answer "if you like it go play Jade Empire". In Wizardry Samurais fought alongside Knights. NWN had plenty of Oriental weapons (katanas, kukris, kamas, and shuriken). And let's face it who doesn't love to play a ninja? The Shadow Rogues practically are one already.



We already have a specialization that can charge its weapons with armor-penetrating spirit energy... I would say unarmed fighter/monk could simply be a class/spec that charges its fists and feet with that energy instead of weapons.



And actually if you combined my two archetype ideas and made "monk"/unarmed fighter the healer/lore class in addition, it would make a very nice, well-rounded fourth class (imho).



I'm thinking a cool name for the class might be Spirit Sages.

[thegreateski]

Getting into a fight without a weapon is silly. Especially in the Dragon Age setting where you have to fight things like Golems and Dragons.

I suppose I COULD see a monk-like character using fist blades though.

Modifié par thegreateski, 03 mai 2010 - 04:26 .

[ArawnNox]

Doesn't fit with the lore? Then explain the Silent Sister in "The Calling" fighting hand to hand and with a "double flail" which was really a nunchaku. Heck, even her long braided hair was bringing up mental images of wuxia movies.

[Vicious]

It doesn't fit with the lore Because he wants to destroy Golems with his fists and punch dragons to death and get bonus to movement and armor, and to use KI ENERGY [smite] to punch people so hard they explode into chunky giblets.



It's just ridiculous DnD/cheesy movie stuff, best left in DnD and [you guessed it] Jade Empire.





Like the folks who want clerics. There's no divine power in this universe. No good deity and no evil deity besides what the organized religions [Chantry, Elves] crams down everyone's throats. It's all just magic and Lyrium, and fanciful stories about ancient individuals who had lots of magic and lyrium.



Yes, there are eastern influences to be found, mostly in the Qunari, but let's face it.. even Sten knows that your fist is going to hurt really bad if you punch that guy's shield, or trying to catch his axe in your hands will cost you a few fingers at least.

[CybAnt1]

It's just ridiculous DnD/cheesy movie stuff, best left in DnD and [you guessed it] Jade Empire.

Yep. How unrealistic, and movie-flick-like.

On the other hand, medieval swordsmen were able to push back their enemies by spraying their own blood at them. 

And those combat moves in Awakening for 2 handers - they scream realism! 

That's why I'm glad I'm playing Medieval Combat Simulator Dragon Age. Not like it's fantasy, or anything.

Well, anyhow, maybe some modder will get around to making this class. Nah, Arcane Warrior Plus isn't still exactly my idea of it. But a nifty concept. 

I'd play it. While I'm not a huge fan of the cleric class mod, it shows a class mod is doable. 

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

I'm still waiting for a rogue mage cross over class.



A monk would be fairly easy to mod I would think.

[Elhanan]

I have accidently placed my Warden into combat at various places w/o a weapon, and fared OK. The Rogue talents may not offer the most exotic names, but they do seem to be unarmed titles.

[CybAnt1]

Ryllen Laerth Kriel wrote...

I'm still waiting for a rogue mage cross over class.

BTW, what would be cool for such a class/crossover concept/archetype is a school of illusion magic, focusing on deception and trickery. 

They could have spells like disguise, mirror image, displacement, blur, illusionary monsters, confusion, etc. 

[soteria]

ArawnNox wrote...

Doesn't fit with the lore? Then explain the Silent Sister in "The Calling" fighting hand to hand and with a "double flail" which was really a nunchaku. Heck, even her long braided hair was bringing up mental images of wuxia movies.

Never read it, so I can't really comment on the context or the situation.  Try providing an example of lore in the game, please.  The only Silent Sister we see fighting in the game is using a 2h weapon.  If fighting bare-handed was the norm for that order as people seem to say, then why is she using a weapon?

[Vicious]

And those combat moves in Awakening for 2 handers - they scream realism!

You are coming off as a sarcastic ignoramus.

It isn't about what is realistic. I never said it was about what was realistic. Punching stuff to death with Ki energy has no place in this setting, like conventional DnD-style clerics.

Unarmed fighting, I can buy, there is a precedent -- but they still wear armor, and there's no energy from within that powers their attacks.

If the fact that a fantasy setting created by someone else can't accomodate all the stuff you want, go elsewhere.

Modifié par Vicious, 03 mai 2010 - 05:32 .

[Donkeycow]

i dont like how monks fit into fantasy games. no matter how good you are at martial arts, a dude in full armour with a shield and a meaty sword would kill a monk without much effort.

[Chris H. Fleming]

Here in the real world, weaponless prizefighting predates written history. Boxing and wrestling are the oldest martial arts. Both, along with Pankration, were in the first Olympics. A gladiator/prizefighter who could fight with and without weapons (though not equally well) would be a very realistic class.



The idea of a weaponless monk in D&D probably derives from Okinawan Te (which became Karate). Weapons and martial arts were outlawed, so they secretly trained with farming tools. I could see the Dalish doing this. They were outlawed from bearing arms in the capital right?

[thegreateski]

I punch the Golem as hard as I can.



My fingers break.

[alickar]

if u can do a spinning roundhouse kick id go for monk all the way

[Tirigon]

I don´t like the idea of fighting bare-handed against dragons, Golems etc... because it seems ridiculous.

[Sago_mulch]

Tirigon wrote...

I don´t like the idea of fighting bare-handed against dragons, Golems etc... because it seems ridiculous.

I ONCE SAW THIS GUY SMASH A WALL WITH HIS BARE HANDS IN A MOVIE ONCE

[Tirigon]

Sago_mulch wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

I don´t like the idea of fighting bare-handed against dragons, Golems etc... because it seems ridiculous.

I ONCE SAW THIS GUY SMASH A WALL WITH HIS BARE HANDS IN A MOVIE ONCE

Sago stop getting on my nerves with your caps lock and the broad letters........

It is so annoying.

[kght22]

please stop this stupid realism argument, this is a thought about the GAME, and magic is deffinately not real, i am just hoping that in the future they create (in da2 or a further downloadable/expansion) a unarmed rogue sub class of whatever they decide to WRITE it for, silent sisters are writen into this world, they are non magical hand to hand fighters. they to me look like a subclass to rogues, highly dexterous, and very strong, but by all appearances, not very cunning. I think that silent sisters could be the start of a sub class if they write a male equivelent, until both male and female chars can have by story line these abilities though, it wont work.

[thegreateski]

The silent sisters fight Darkspawn primarily. Darkspawn are not very big (except Ogres).





In any case . . . it's not about realism, It's about practicality.

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

Hand to hand vs. unarmed and unarmored opponents makes sense. I kind of wish they had more unarmed fighting availible. But I also wish our characters could jump, climb and swim. But...I doubt Dragon Age would of survived the 7+ year development cycle for that.



And no, punching and kicking dragons would make no sense. Monks would be cool but their attacks would have to be useless against large or heavily armored opponents. But...that's when they could pull out a spear or sword!

[Amonithil]

soteria wrote...

Never read it, so I can't really comment on the context or the situation.  Try providing an example of lore in the game, please.  The only Silent Sister we see fighting in the game is using a 2h weapon.  If fighting bare-handed was the norm for that order as people seem to say, then why is she using a weapon?

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure it was mentioned by a dev to be an engine limitation, just as said silent sister was also meant to be bald in the game, but it was not be supported by the engine. This meant they gave her a two handed weapon as there was no animation available for unarmed fighting, if you chose to fight her. I'm not going to look for a quote by the devs, but I think that was the reason given.

Amon

Modifié par Amonithil, 04 mai 2010 - 11:00 .

[CybAnt1]

If the fact that a fantasy setting created by someone else can't accomodate all the stuff you want, go elsewhere.

Here's the cool thing, friend.... in a moddable game, sometimes if the devs. don't think it fits in their gameworld, a modder does. I might not have played this one if it weren't moddable. I'm starting to view that as an essential feature for a good CRPG. Mainly because it means I don't have to be FORCED to accept design aspects or elements I don't like. 

And to be honest, I'm not positive they don't see that it fits just because players like you don't. Sure, there are times when I get upset at the devs. when they say they won't do something (like a combat log). But I find it amazing when I start a thread saying they should do a new class and people say they won't. Well, maybe those players don't want one, but I see a lot of room on the character creation screen for new classes, and no statements from developers so far that the won't do more besides the three existing ones. I sure hope they will! 

Now I agree a cleric class doesn't fit lore. They've said so. Religion is not an "active" force in this world, you can't pray to a god and have it smite your enemies with fire. That doesn't mean there can't be a character archetype that resembles it but is divorced from religion, an idea I've suggested before. Call it the Healer or the Spirit Sage, separate it from religion per se. But foci could be healing, group buffing, lore, contending with dark forces. 

I find it weird to say people say X or Y doesn't fit the lore of the world, because AFAICT there's plenty of Thedas (the world) we haven't seen, let alone plenty of Thedas (the continent) we haven't visited. 

An unarmed fighter doesn't necessarily lack a "fit" for this world. I agree, physics being what they are, punching an armored ogre should break your hand. Yeah, I've seen guys break a cement block at karate demonstrations, but whatever, my argument's not about what does or does not work in the real world. But we already have a class specialization (spirit warrior) that can charge weapons with spirit energy that bypasses armor. And it's not a mage, so there goes the "only mages do magic" claim. 

Seems to me there's a gamelore basis for a class -- or just a specialization, if need be -- that does the same thing to their fists and feet. And maybe, not unlike the arcane warrior, strengthens their body with magical energy, protecting against physical attack, even though they don't wear any armor .... 

And incidentally, as other people have pointed out, your characters will go up and punch stuff already if you don't have a weapon, and yes activating some rogue abilities will give bonuses to your fists, so we're almost there. Throw in a few flying kicks, open hand spear breaking, and the drunken monkey battle stance, and I'm close to satisfied.

And yeah, if Bio's not going to do it, then I want a modder to. 

I also have lately thought that they could make this unarmed fighter class concept/archetype, combine it with my other healer/spirit sage concept/archetype, and make a very cool fourth class that would very well round out the other three existing ones. But yeah, maybe I'm just stuck dreaming in the Fade again. 

[CybAnt1]

But...that's when they could pull out a spear or sword!

My D & D monks fought plenty with weapons, like nunchaku, shuriken, bo staves, and naginata. (I also played ninjas, kensai, and samurais in D & D that used katanas, wazakashi, sais, and ninja-tos. And that was BEFORE the Oriental Adventures sourcebook came out.)

I also like the fist weapons/blades idea, they exist in WoW (but are super rare), in NWN2 it seemed you mostly equipped various gloves and bracers that added elemental damage to your fist strikes. 

We don't know if this gameworld has an "Orient" yet (or its parallel), but if it does, I would link this class concept/archetype to it, as well as use of weapons from it. 

So what we're calling "monk/unarmed fighter" I would hope be a class that does eschew armor, but might fight effectively with either weapons or without, however I'd prefer the weapons to have Oriental flavor. 

And again to be clear, if this strikes no chord with the developers, I hope there's a modder with interest paying attention. I don't have the skills to make a class, but someone with the skills to, I hope might try.