1133 réponses à ce sujet

[TMZuk]

maxernst wrote...

Being Gorion's ward meant that you had one specific childhood.  You will still be able to choose your class.  The only thing you won't be choosing is name and race.  How much difference do those things really make in the way BG plays out?

I think what makes a roleplaying game is having choices to make that reflect your character's views that affect the gameworld.  Planescape: Torment was wonderful because it actually had dialogue that forced you consider what your character really believed...that's way more important to me that what my character looks like.  There's a reason that virtually all games other than DA:O have you as an orphan, an amnesiac, an escaped prisoner, a shipwreck victim or something like that.  Having multiple origins that actually matter to what happens in the game requires an enormous amount of extra work. 

They make a lot of difference in my head. I can choose between all of Farun's nations, make up any story how the character ended in Candlekeep, who the mother were, and how she came to give birth to the bhaalspawn. And, I don't have a ******* actor presenting emotions and sensations that aren't mine in BG.

In DA2 I can choose between male and female. That's it. While I have three classes available, Hawke will still have the same voice, the same parents, the same sister, the same friend etc, etc. And, the same bloody name!

If that doesn't make a difference to you, then happy you. You might have a great game ahead. For me it makes all the difference between an RPG, and an adventure-game. I am pretty certain that I don't have a great game ahead.

Modifié par TMZuk, 12 août 2010 - 05:15 .

[Bryy_Miller]

Why does that mean you can't do the same roleplay as before, though?

[The Edge]

You could also look at it this way: If there is only one race to play as, then maybe Bioware can devote more time into other aspects that you define as a player (perhaps just being a rogue, warrior, or mage will be even more important to the story, or your beliefs on the Chantry and such can be even more defined by the player as the story progresses).



Even though Bioware is "taking away" a lot of the origin's options, that doesn't mean they won't fill in the gaps with other cool stuff.

[Sylvius the Mad]

the_one_54321 wrote...

That is just patently inaccurate. I can easily cite myself as a disproving example. I am an RPG fan, yes a fan even of what you define as an RPG, and I am perfectly fine with buying into a PC that is created by the developers/writers of the game.

Did you like Shepard?  Did you feel any ownership of Shepard?  Was Shepard your character?

Or was he just someone you watched?

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 12 août 2010 - 05:23 .

[maxernst]

TMZuk wrote...

maxernst wrote...

They make a lot of difference in my head. I can choose between all of Farun's nations, make up any story how the character ended in Candlekeep, who the mother were, and how she came to give birth to the bhaalspawn. And, I don't have a ******* actor presenting emotions and sensations that aren't mine in BG.

In DA2 I can choose between male and female. That's it. While I have three classes available, Hawke will still have the same voice, the same parents, the same sister, the same friend etc, etc. And, the same bloody name!

If that doesn't make a difference to you, then happy you. You might have a great game ahead. For me it makes all the difference between an RPG, and an adventure-game. I am pretty certain that I don't have a great game ahead.

And having a mother you never knew from a different country makes a difference to your character how, exactly?  How much is your character's actual life experiences that shaped him as a person really influenced by thisj?  And IIRC, BG does have a voice actor (you have a selection of several of them) who pipes up periodically, just not during the chosen dialogue.  All those words and emotions were yours?  You never had to choose dialogue in a conversation tree that felt wrong to you?  Really?

[maxernst]

The Edge wrote...

You could also look at it this way: If there is only one race to play as, then maybe Bioware can devote more time into other aspects that you define as a player (perhaps just being a rogue, warrior, or mage will be even more important to the story, or your beliefs on the Chantry and such can be even more defined by the player as the story progresses).

Even though Bioware is "taking away" a lot of the origin's options, that doesn't mean they won't fill in the gaps with other cool stuff.

This!  The more variation in background, the less you can have that variation actually matter.  Playing an elf in BG makes very little difference, playing an Elf in DA:O had a real impact on the game play, even beyond the origin story.

[the_one_54321]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
That is just patently inaccurate. I can easily cite myself as a disproving example. I am an RPG fan, yes a fan even of what you define as an RPG, and I am perfectly fine with buying into a PC that is created by the developers/writers of the game.

Did you like Shepard?  Did you feel any ownership of Shepard?  Was Shepard your character?

Or was he just someone you watched?

I'll do one better for you. I loved Lightning in FFXIII. Her character started off being so irritating, but grew into someone with the kind of resolve and ideals that I admire. By the end of the game I was really rooting for her.
And I had no control over what that character said or did in any way at all.

[Sylvius the Mad]

maxernst wrote...

You never had to choose dialogue in a conversation tree that felt wrong to you?

It's extremely uncommon.

I real the NPC's line, and then I work out my character's reaction to it.  How does he feel about what he just heard?  What is his opinion of the speaker?  Everything that might matter, I determine that.

And then, I read the dialogue options and choose the one that is consistent with the reaction my PC just had.

[Sylvius the Mad]

the_one_54321 wrote...

I'll do one better for you. I loved Lightning in FFXIII. Her character started off being so irritating, but grew into someone with the kind of resolve and ideals that I admire. By the end of the game I was really rooting for her.
And I had no control over what that character said or did in any way at all.

But could you play her?  At the beginning of the game when she was irritating, why did she do the things she did?  Why was she irritating?

If you didn't know that, then you weren't able to roleplay her (not that you can ever roleplay in a JRPG).

[Mecha Tengu]

yea JRPGs are just movies where you sit back, and mash a few buttons when it comes time for combat

[the_one_54321]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
I'll do one better for you. I loved Lightning in FFXIII. Her character started off being so irritating, but grew into someone with the kind of resolve and ideals that I admire. By the end of the game I was really rooting for her.
And I had no control over what that character said or did in any way at all.

But could you play her?  At the beginning of the game when she was irritating, why did she do the things she did?  Why was she irritating?

If you didn't know that, then you weren't able to roleplay her (not that you can ever roleplay in a JRPG).

Not the point. The point is that I am a fan of games that you would term RPGs. And I am quite willing, eager at times even, to buy into characters that offer me little or no control.

[Sylvius the Mad]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Not the point. The point is that I am a fan of games that you would term RPGs. And I am quite willing, eager at times even, to buy into characters that offer me little or no control.

Then you fail to be the RPG-fan I described.  You're not a fan of RPGs.  You're a fan of games, some of which happen to be RPGs.

That's a different thing.

[the_one_54321]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
Not the point. The point is that I am a fan of games that you would term RPGs. And I am quite willing, eager at times even, to buy into characters that offer me little or no control.

Then you fail to be the RPG-fan I described.  You're not a fan of RPGs.  You're a fan of games, some of which happen to be RPGs.

That's a different thing.

Now you're arbitrarily defining terms to change the meaning of the statement you made. I am very much a fan of RPGs, even as you define them. I am just not exclusively a fan of RPGs as you define them.

[Sidney]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Did you like Shepard?  Did you feel any ownership of Shepard?  Was Shepard your character?

Or was he just someone you watched?

Shep was all mine. I felt I owned him in a way I didn't own most other RPG characters - I mean a lot more than anything in BG2 or KoTOR for example where there was a massive incetive to play all or nothing good vs evil and the greys weren't all that interesting. I never had the array of choices and methods to interact with others. The closest thing to Shep was my old FO and FO2 characters in terms of texture.

[Mecha Tengu]

Sidney wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Did you like Shepard?  Did you feel any ownership of Shepard?  Was Shepard your character?

Or was he just someone you watched?

Shep was all mine. I felt I owned him in a way I didn't own most other RPG characters - I mean a lot more than anything in BG2 or KoTOR for example where there was a massive incetive to play all or nothing good vs evil and the greys weren't all that interesting. I never had the array of choices and methods to interact with others. The closest thing to Shep was my old FO and FO2 characters in terms of texture.

But shepard isnt really yours

your just renting him off Bioware

[Sylvius the Mad]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Now you're arbitrarily defining terms to change the meaning of the statement you made. I am very much a fan of RPGs, even as you define them. I am just not exclusively a fan of RPGs as you define them.

But you don't like them for being RPGs.  You like them as games, yes, but not because they are RPGs.

I like RPGs because they are RPGs.  Roleplaying is all I ever want in a game.

[Mydalis]

TMZuk wrote...

maxernst wrote...

Being Gorion's ward meant that you had one specific childhood.  You will still be able to choose your class.  The only thing you won't be choosing is name and race.  How much difference do those things really make in the way BG plays out?

I think what makes a roleplaying game is having choices to make that reflect your character's views that affect the gameworld.  Planescape: Torment was wonderful because it actually had dialogue that forced you consider what your character really believed...that's way more important to me that what my character looks like.  There's a reason that virtually all games other than DA:O have you as an orphan, an amnesiac, an escaped prisoner, a shipwreck victim or something like that.  Having multiple origins that actually matter to what happens in the game requires an enormous amount of extra work. 

They make a lot of difference in my head. I can choose between all of Farun's nations, make up any story how the character ended in Candlekeep, who the mother were, and how she came to give birth to the bhaalspawn. And, I don't have a ******* actor presenting emotions and sensations that aren't mine in BG.

In DA2 I can choose between male and female. That's it. While I have three classes available, Hawke will still have the same voice, the same parents, the same sister, the same friend etc, etc. And, the same bloody name!

If that doesn't make a difference to you, then happy you. You might have a great game ahead. For me it makes all the difference between an RPG, and an adventure-game. I am pretty certain that I don't have a great game ahead.

I thought that it was revealed in one of the games that your mother was some sort of cultist and Gorion rescued you as a child, then you grew up alongside Imoen in Candlekeep as Gorion's ward regardless of what you chose. Then again maybe I'm just imagining that being in there...been a long time since I played the BG games. Anyone else remember?

[Sidney]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I real the NPC's line, and then I work out my character's reaction to it.  How does he feel about what he just heard?  What is his opinion of the speaker?  Everything that might matter, I determine that.

And then, I read the dialogue options and choose the one that is consistent with the reaction my PC just had.

Wow, you make it sound like what you are doing is actually anything other than what every human, and several other primates, do when playing the game. Seriously, the funny thing is you actually think what you juzt said does make you different and even more unfathomable is that you think how you pick that line of dialog matters.

[the_one_54321]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
But you don't like them for being RPGs.  You like them as games, yes, but not because they are RPGs.

Non sequitor. I don't want BioWare to deviate from what DA:O has been, the same as I wouldn't want Square to deviate from the writing they do in FF. Different is good. I specifically like both games for what each game is specfiically.

[Sidney]

Mydalis wrote...
I thought that it was revealed in one of the games that your mother was some sort of cultist and Gorion rescued you as a child, then you grew up alongside Imoen in Candlekeep as Gorion's ward regardless of what you chose. Then again maybe I'm just imagining that being in there...been a long time since I played the BG games. Anyone else remember?

People forget that like they forget they've chosen a voice in every Bioware game going back to BG1 when they whine about ME or DA2.

[AlanC9]

TMZuk wrote...
They make a lot of difference in my head. I can choose between all of Farun's nations, make up any story how the character ended in Candlekeep, who the mother were, and how she came to give birth to the bhaalspawn.

Only as long as you don't play ToB. Mydalis is correct. If you play ToB you find out exactly who and what your mother was.

And in what sense is it meaningful role-playing for you to decide things that your character does not know?

Modifié par AlanC9, 12 août 2010 - 05:44 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Sidney wrote...

People forget that like they forget they've chosen a voice in every Bioware game going back to BG1 when they whine about ME or DA2.

What your voice sounds like isn't the issue.  How you deliver lines is the issue.

[Sidney]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
What your voice sounds like isn't the issue.  How you deliver lines is the issue.

It is, that's why I get pissed off everytime a line of written dialog isn't what I want to say. Seriously, anytime someone else "delivers" the line rather they speak it or write it won't be "yours" 100% of the time. Shep matched my intent as often as the written DAO lines.

[Sylvius the Mad]

How did you choose lines? Did you work out what you wanted to say and then were disappointed that it wasn't an available option?

This is usually how people play when they say they don't get to say what they want. This is why I described the process by which I select lines above. My way doesn't cause this problem.