1133 réponses à ce sujet

[maxernst]

Haexpane wrote...

filetemo wrote...

They say they want to push the rpg genre, but it's not true, what they want is to make interactive adventures.
 

A lot of the posters here, (NOT ME) want the same thing.  They just want an action game w/ a story w/ lots of "choices" so they can pretend they are in the story.  I can't quite understand why they want the GAME parts removed from a videogame.

Well, I'm not certain exactly who you're referring to, but  if you're referring to anybody who doesn't think DA2's design changes are horrific:  No, some of us just don't think that having to play a human with a particular voice and origin means removing roleplaying from the game.  In my experience, not all human beings from the same country are exactly alike.  And I certainly don't want an action game, if anything, I'd like less combat.  However, I'm resigned to the fact that Bioware's games (and most RPG's) always have far more repetitive, unavoidable combat than I would like.

Modifié par maxernst, 12 août 2010 - 07:23 .

[sanadawarrior]

Haexpane wrote...

sanadawarrior wrote...

Haexpane wrote...

filetemo wrote...

They say they want to push the rpg genre, but it's not true, what they want is to make interactive adventures.
 

A lot of the posters here, (NOT ME) want the same thing.  They just want an action game w/ a story w/ lots of "choices" so they can pretend they are in the story.  I can't quite understand why they want the GAME parts removed from a videogame.

If they want an action GAME, how is it that they want the GAME parts removed?

I should have said the RPG game mechanics.   Although many of the "I don't like numbers" crowd would probably like the "action" to be nothing but Bad/Good choices and then sit back and watch a Bearded BaddAss get all up in someone's face so they can pretend they are a BaddAss?

I really don't know what they are thinking, I've never understood why people play an RPG and then complain about all the RPG mechanics and demand they be removed.

We already have a Formerly known as an RPG Mass Effect 2.   Dragon Age is one of the last true party based WRPGs, if DA2 becomes Mass Effect with swords, the genre is officially dead (except for MMOs)

I'm painting a WORST CASE SCENARIO in the hope that I'm wrong and DA2 is more like DAO than ME2:whistle:

I've been playing RPGs since Baldur's Gate, and let me tell you Mass Effect 2 is not only my favorite game, but my favorite rpg of all time. Your worst case scenario is my best case scenario.

[AlanC9]

Tinxa wrote...
In BG you find Gorions letter when you return to Candlekeep. In it it says that your mother was Gorion's good friend who was seduced by Bhaal, died in childbirth and Gorion promised to look after you. But in ToB your mother is said to be an evil cultist and Gorion rescued you.

Those two things are not necessarily in conflict. Plenty of "good" Wardens romanced Morrigan, and she's not all that far from being an evil cultist herself. And plenty of good Bhaalspawn romanced Viconia, who is an evil cultist.

[GothmogII]

You know, I wonder if Planescape Torment falls under the OP's idea of an 'interactive adventure'. Because, really, that's exactly what it was. The Nameless one, while solidly defined as a character, still allowed the player enough freedom to make them feel like they were making important choices. But, despite the massive amount of text, even then having played the game enough times the chat trees still had their limits. There were only a certain amount of different variations you could pick.



But, because the game was so well written and engaging, the fact that you didn't get to make your own character didn't matter. In fact, I think this is something that BioWare realised coming on from Baldur's Gate, when you think of the PC, he's (or she) is fairly one-dimensional as a character, and that there's very little room to make him seem interesting rather than a manikin the player is controlling.



I guess this is fine if the writing is good, if the responses put in the PC's mouth are varied and interesting, however, what happens when it's done wrong, is that you end up with something like the dialogue in NWN or Jade Empire. Seriously, can anyone here remember even one memorable dialogue choice the PC in either of those games spoke? Anyone?

[sanadawarrior]

AlanC9 wrote...

Tinxa wrote...
In BG you find Gorions letter when you return to Candlekeep. In it it says that your mother was Gorion's good friend who was seduced by Bhaal, died in childbirth and Gorion promised to look after you. But in ToB your mother is said to be an evil cultist and Gorion rescued you.

Those two things are not necessarily in conflict. Plenty of "good" Wardens romanced Morrigan, and she's not all that far from being an evil cultist herself. And plenty of good Bhaalspawn romanced Viconia, who is an evil cultist.

This is so true lol, I pretty much always romanced Viconia no matter my alignment.

[Ariella]

Haexpane wrote...

I should have said the RPG game mechanics.   Although many of the "I don't like numbers" crowd would probably like the "action" to be nothing but Bad/Good choices and then sit back and watch a Bearded BaddAss get all up in someone's face so they can pretend they are a BaddAss?

I really don't know what they are thinking, I've never understood why people play an RPG and then complain about all the RPG mechanics and demand they be removed.

We already have a Formerly known as an RPG Mass Effect 2.   Dragon Age is one of the last true party based WRPGs, if DA2 becomes Mass Effect with swords, the genre is officially dead (except for MMOs)

I'm painting a WORST CASE SCENARIO in the hope that I'm wrong and DA2 is more like DAO than ME2:whistle:

Mechanics are in the eye of the beholder. First when haven't been told that the basic mechanics (gaining xp, stats, et al) have been changed from DAO to DA2. Second, remember that while Table Top RPGs, the mother of all rpgs, were based on strategic games, but begame to evolved to move away from that. Look at the systems used in Shadowrun and World of Darkness: xp was given for achieving goals rather than how many one could slay. The systems reflected this move.

CRPGs have had to evolve as well. Look at what's happening with World of Warcraft in the next expansion. Many of the stats are going away, thier purpose either being folded into another stat or wholely done away with so people won't have to sit with a spread sheet at their elbow to determine which equimpment is better.

If people really want to freak, be glad they haven't gone as far as say Fable 3...

[AlanC9]

GothmogII wrote...
....what happens when it's done wrong, is that you end up with something like the dialogue in NWN or Jade Empire. Seriously, can anyone here remember even one memorable dialogue choice the PC in either of those games spoke? Anyone?

Does HotU count?

[Haexpane]

sanadawarrior wrote...
 
I've been playing RPGs since Baldur's Gate, and let me tell you Mass Effect 2 is not only my favorite game, but my favorite rpg of all time. Your worst case scenario is my best case scenario.

If ME2 is your favorite RPG of all time, then Gran Turismo is mine

[maxernst]

Ariella wrote...

Haexpane wrote...

I should have said the RPG game mechanics.   Although many of the "I don't like numbers" crowd would probably like the "action" to be nothing but Bad/Good choices and then sit back and watch a Bearded BaddAss get all up in someone's face so they can pretend they are a BaddAss?

I really don't know what they are thinking, I've never understood why people play an RPG and then complain about all the RPG mechanics and demand they be removed.

We already have a Formerly known as an RPG Mass Effect 2.   Dragon Age is one of the last true party based WRPGs, if DA2 becomes Mass Effect with swords, the genre is officially dead (except for MMOs)

I'm painting a WORST CASE SCENARIO in the hope that I'm wrong and DA2 is more like DAO than ME2:whistle:

Mechanics are in the eye of the beholder. First when haven't been told that the basic mechanics (gaining xp, stats, et al) have been changed from DAO to DA2. Second, remember that while Table Top RPGs, the mother of all rpgs, were based on strategic games, but begame to evolved to move away from that. Look at the systems used in Shadowrun and World of Darkness: xp was given for achieving goals rather than how many one could slay. The systems reflected this move.

CRPGs have had to evolve as well. Look at what's happening with World of Warcraft in the next expansion. Many of the stats are going away, thier purpose either being folded into another stat or wholely done away with so people won't have to sit with a spread sheet at their elbow to determine which equimpment is better.

If people really want to freak, be glad they haven't gone as far as say Fable 3...

This is an excellent point.  As I matured, my taste in activities in tabletop RPG's changed and combat became less important.  In the RM campaign I was running, I went to the trouble of making a whole bunch of custom character classes for a weak-magic world and began to play the game.  And I began to think...what on earth posessed me to bother with such a complex character development and combat system for a game in which the players actually fought maybe once every five or six sessions?  The rest of the time it was the odd perception or persuasion check.  Really, the stats were almost completely beside the point.  I don't think spreadsheet manipulation is the essence of roleplaying, though I'm certainly not afraid of it.  The reason I don't really think of Diablo as an RPG is not because it's character development system is too simple but because the character's interaction with the world is too limited.

[TMZuk]

GothmogII wrote...
I guess this is fine if the writing is good, if the responses put in the PC's mouth are varied and interesting, however, what happens when it's done wrong, is that you end up with something like the dialogue in NWN or Jade Empire. Seriously, can anyone here remember even one memorable dialogue choice the PC in either of those games spoke? Anyone?

I never played Jade Empire, but I do remember coming from BG2, buying NWN, installing it, trembling with excitement, and what a disastrous failure it was, IMO. A flat, un-engaging campaign, utterly and totally predictable, boring dialogue, boring NPC's, boring boring boring. It took me years even finishing it.

The saving grace of NWN was  the many persistant worlds that quickly started to emerge, some of them incredibly well made. That kept the game alive to this day, and that is btw the only sort of online RPG that has ever got hold of me big time.

[maxernst]

TMZuk wrote...

GothmogII wrote...
I guess this is fine if the writing is good, if the responses put in the PC's mouth are varied and interesting, however, what happens when it's done wrong, is that you end up with something like the dialogue in NWN or Jade Empire. Seriously, can anyone here remember even one memorable dialogue choice the PC in either of those games spoke? Anyone?

I never played Jade Empire, but I do remember coming from BG2, buying NWN, installing it, trembling with excitement, and what a disastrous failure it was, IMO. A flat, un-engaging campaign, utterly and totally predictable, boring dialogue, boring NPC's, boring boring boring. It took me years even finishing it.

The saving grace of NWN was  the many persistant worlds that quickly started to emerge, some of them incredibly well made. That kept the game alive to this day, and that is btw the only sort of online RPG that has ever got hold of me big time.

Well, the OC for NWN was pretty much a tech demo.  The online aspect was really what it was made for.

[TMZuk]

Ariella wrote...

CRPGs have had to evolve as well. Look at what's happening with World of Warcraft in the next expansion. Many of the stats are going away, thier purpose either being folded into another stat or wholely done away with so people won't have to sit with a spread sheet at their elbow to determine which equimpment is better.

If people really want to freak, be glad they haven't gone as far as say Fable 3...

Since when was WoW an RPG?

Not that I mind simplifying of stats. Stats isn't what makes an RPG IMO. Choices, creativity, story, good NPC's and freedom, both in character development, and in gameplay is what makes a good RPG.

[Khavos]

Narreneth wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

If they hadn't been focused on bringing in a different market, but on getting similar or slightly higher numbers as they got with DA:O--very good numbers, they would have been in a position to save a lot of time/money on the development of DA:2. They wouldn't have had to remake the graphics, spend time and money voicing the protagonist, creating the the 'improved' interface (heavy sacrcasm), or on making extensive and unnecessary 'cinematics.' They could have just forged ahead, spending that time on extending the world and implementing their new story.

*facepalm*
Again, why do people feel like they know things like this?

Because they're pretentious ass clowns.

It's generally a bad idea to assume that everyone is just as ignorant as you.

[UltimoCrofto]

Agree with the OP.



Blatantly obvious BioWare are trying to move away from the traditional RPG genre and to embrace casual gamers better for more sales. No different than an underground band going "mainstream" or whatever. Most people in business will sell themselves out for more moneyz, it's just how it works.



Dragon Age Origins is basically BioWare's one last gift to people who put them where they are now, but from here on it's gonna be console-driven games with minor, if any, RPG elements aside from dialogue choices.



Bethesda are the same. It happens.

[Mecha Tengu]

UltimoCrofto wrote...

Bethesda are the same. It happens.

hey, fallout 3 was a great RPG!

[burrito]

For all the DA2 haters. Atleast you'll always have WoW.

[Clover Rider]

RPG this RPG that if a game is good who cares what it is.

[Khavos]

Mecha Tengu wrote...

UltimoCrofto wrote...

Bethesda are the same. It happens.

hey, fallout 3 was a great RPG!

It was a good RPG, and they actually did try to make a shooter combat system and an RPG combat system work together, and actually function well.  ME2 just decided to make a shooter combat system and give it useless RPG gloss.  I don't think I could have completed FO3 on its hardest difficulty without ever spending a point; Insanity runs in ME2 without ever touching talent points don't make the game any harder.  ME2 was a shoddy, shoddy excuse for an RPG, and with all the button-mashing action game crap you'll be enjoying in DA2, it's clearly going the same route.

Think we'll still have an inventory?

[filetemo]

UltimoCrofto wrote...

Agree with the OP.

Blatantly obvious BioWare are trying to move away from the traditional RPG genre and to embrace casual gamers better for more sales. No different than an underground band going "mainstream" or whatever. Most people in business will sell themselves out for more moneyz, it's just how it works.

Dragon Age Origins is basically BioWare's one last gift to people who put them where they are now, but from here on it's gonna be console-driven games with minor, if any, RPG elements aside from dialogue choices.

Bethesda are the same. It happens.

lots of people have trouble acknowledging this so they stick to badly written sarcastic posts and "don't like it don't buy it"

[SirOccam]

UltimoCrofto wrote...

Blatantly obvious BioWare are trying to move away from the traditional RPG genre and to embrace casual gamers better for more sales.

I think a major part of the issue is that what you view as "moving away" from the genre, a lot of us view as "innovating" or "pushing the boundaries" of the genre. I, for one, don't like the idea that they should be bound by what's "traditional," because "traditional" isn't the same things as "correct."

Modifié par SirOccam, 12 août 2010 - 09:54 .

[BigGuy28]

burrito wrote...

For all the DA2 haters. Atleast you'll always have WoW.

What does this even mean? Stop licking windows and think before you post.

[In Exile]

maxernst wrote...

Well, I'm not certain exactly who you're referring to, but  if you're referring to anybody who doesn't think DA2's design changes are horrific:  No, some of us just don't think that having to play a human with a particular voice and origin means removing roleplaying from the game.  In my experience, not all human beings from the same country are exactly alike.  And I certainly don't want an action game, if anything, I'd like less combat.  However, I'm resigned to the fact that Bioware's games (and most RPG's) always have far more repetitive, unavoidable combat than I would like.

Right. I'm on the same page. I happen to like the statistic driven isometric combat. I don't feel wedded to it, so if they swap that for another system I also find fun, I'm cool with that re: the game. My bigger concern is developers that stop making a gameplay style I like in conjuction with the story and interactivity I like, because the story and interactivity is the make or break for me.

[BattlerDunbine]

Browsing this thread is 20 minutes of my life I'll never get back...

[Khavos]

SirOccam wrote...

UltimoCrofto wrote...

Blatantly obvious BioWare are trying to move away from the traditional RPG genre and to embrace casual gamers better for more sales.

I think a major part of the issue is that what you view as "moving away" from the genre, a lot of us view as "innovating" or "pushing the boundaries" of the genre. I, for one, don't like the idea that they should bound by what's "traditional," because "traditional" isn't the same things as "correct."

Yeah.  They innovated their way right into Gears of War with ME2, and it sounds like DA2 is going to push the boundaries in terms of how much they can copy God of War without actually having the game's code in front of them.