1133 réponses à ce sujet

[Bryy_Miller]

Haexpane wrote...

Dragon Age Origins was all I had left.   It's sad to watch a genre die, a genre IMO that produced some of the greatest games I've ever played.

This is all your subjective opinion, though.

[maxernst]

Haexpane wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

But why should anyone care if a game is an RPG or not?
 

It's not the label, it's the gameplay.

Example

Morrowind vs. Oblivion

Oblivion was casualized, and stripped down to make it more "accessible/visceral"  which resulted in it being "less RPG" and for many of us much worse than Morrowind.

Oblivion is also a great example of listening to fans for some things (much better quest system/log) and then ignoring fans for other things which resulted in a broken messy game (level scaling)

NFL Madden is another great example.  Fans asked for it to be more realistic?  The result?  EA added in MORE COMMERCIALS and IN game adverts instead.

They also dumbed down the gameplay, you can LITERALLY HOLD THE X BUTTON TO WIN!  WHen you play the demo, a message pops up on defense specifically telling you "Hold the X button for the CPU to make plays for you" 

Do we really want to see Dragon Age, the spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate 2 become "Hold X to WIN!"

Although I do think Morrowind was a better game than Oblivion, I didn't think their gameplay was that much different.  The reason Oblivion was not as good was that the world/lore was boring and it had the absolute worst main plotline quest I've ever played. Talk about tedious!  And you're right about the broken level-scaling of course, but I've never felt the whole get better by doing mechanic in the ES games worked very well.

[Haexpane]

The Edge wrote...

Haexpane wrote...

SirOccam wrote...

 
I think I've seen movies like the Lord of the Rings trilogy, the Truman Show, and several of my other favorites may more times than 20.

 

Whoah, whoah, hold on just a second.

Did you really just say Truman Show is one of your favorite movies and you've watched it 20 times? 

I for one thought the Truman Show was a great movie 

Well I give it props for predicting Reality TV, and it's not like it was unwatchable or anything, heck I don't even mind Jim Carrey, in fact I loved Ace Ventura but I'm shocked anyone even remembers this movie let alone considers it a favorite.

But I'm no coward.  I will freely admit to my favorite movies and expect everyone to tell me they are boring.

Dead Man - by Jim Jarmusch  IMO one of the most gritty and realisty takes on "wild west" ever told

Blade Runner

There Will be Blood

I'm more of a TV series guy tho, like Star Trek DS9, BSG seasons 1-3,  Deadwood,  HBO's ROme etc...

[Solid N7]

filetemo wrote...

SirOccam wrote...

Faz432 wrote...

To be fair people can go on what's happened before in recent history to get an idea of what will happen in the future, and when you look at the direction Bioware went with ME1 to ME2 then the assumption that they are pushing their games away from RPG to action/adventure is valid.

Only if you have a really rigid, strict, immutable definition of what makes an RPG.

If you don't, then you may not even agree that ME2 was less of an RPG than ME1 was. And in that case, the point doesn't even apply.

I love RPGs, but that doesn't mean they can never be modernized or updated. Not everything that is traditionally part of an RPG has to be in an RPG in order for it to be considered an RPG. Just gotta keep an open mind.

soccer is soccer, rules have been adapting and changing for over 100 years, but if one day you make players play the ball with their hands, it's not soccer anymore. You can (and must) improve rules but the pillars must remain untouchable

"Football is Football " not soccer.

[Collider]

Agreed, Bioware hates RPGs and wants to rid of them forever. Only then will we have world peace.

[jonluke93]

I thought The Truman Show was a great movie definitely the best Carrey has done, Although I guess that isn't really saying much.

[maxernst]

Haexpane wrote...

Jonathan Seagull wrote...

 

Haexpane wrote...

Dragon Age is one of the last true party based WRPGs, if DA2 becomes Mass Effect with swords, the genre is officially dead (except for MMOs)

I'm painting a WORST CASE SCENARIO in the hope that I'm wrong and DA2 is more like DAO than ME2:whistle:

Emphasis mine.  While I appreciate that last sentiment, I have an issue with statements like these (you are not the only one I've seen make them).  It makes it sound as though Dragon Age came out 10 years ago, and it's been a long, cold, sunless winter since then.  The game came out less than a year ago.  It's a bit soon to be declaring it to be the last of a dead genre, no matter how DA2 shapes up.

What was the last party based WRPG before Dragon Age?   NWN, KOTOR.  Outside of Bioware?

NWN2 which put out its last expansion in 2008, not that long ago, at all.  Hell, Arcanum is more recent than Summoner. 

[Clover Rider]

Collider wrote...

Agreed, Bioware hates RPGs and wants to rid of them forever. Only then will we have world peace.

They need this guy to help if it has to do with the world  :happy:.

[Ariella]

TMZuk wrote...

Ariella wrote...

CRPGs have had to evolve as well. Look at what's happening with World of Warcraft in the next expansion. Many of the stats are going away, thier purpose either being folded into another stat or wholely done away with so people won't have to sit with a spread sheet at their elbow to determine which equimpment is better.

If people really want to freak, be glad they haven't gone as far as say Fable 3...

Since when was WoW an RPG?

Not that I mind simplifying of stats. Stats isn't what makes an RPG IMO. Choices, creativity, story, good NPC's and freedom, both in character development, and in gameplay is what makes a good RPG.

Which is exactly the point I'm trying to make. Maybe WoW was a bad example except for the fact it is, at the moment, extremely stat based, which makes it difficult for the majority to even experience big parts of the game. Yet the complaint is it's being "causalized" .

Games in general should be fun. I tend toward RPGs more than any other kind of game because I like the idea of a party cooperating to get a goal done, For me, that's the essense of an RPG.

[Haexpane]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Haexpane wrote...

Dragon Age Origins was all I had left.   It's sad to watch a genre die, a genre IMO that produced some of the greatest games I've ever played.

This is all your subjective opinion, though.

No its not, name another party based WRPG coming out or recently released.  There is no opinion about it, it's simply counting the number of games in a certain genre.

[Haexpane]

maxernst wrote...

 

Although I do think Morrowind was a better game than Oblivion, I didn't think their gameplay was that much different.  The reason Oblivion was not as good was that the world/lore was boring and it had the absolute worst main plotline quest I've ever played. Talk about tedious!  And you're right about the broken level-scaling of course, but I've never felt the whole get better by doing mechanic in the ES games worked very well.

We are agreeing a lot about Morrowind/Oblivion.  TES are not great "combat" games to begin with, so yeah Oblivion's combat isn't that much different, and in fact casting spells is easier on the XBOX version than Morrowind.

"Close dem darn gates" was indeed one of the worst main quests ever, 2nd only to Mass Effect 2's "get some brah dogs and posse on up for da baddassbigfight!"

My biggest complaint about Oblivion is it simply did not feel like an RPG , it felt like an open world action game.

[SirOccam]

Haexpane wrote...

Whoah, whoah, hold on just a second.

Did you really just say Truman Show is one of your favorite movies and you've watched it 20 times? 

No, not at all.

I said many more times than 20.

Seriously though, I loved the premise. As you said, it was an interesting peek at what was to come with reality TV becoming prevalent. You don't see many high concept movies done well, but that was one of them.

I thought the acting was great, and it made me a fan of Laura Linney. It was also the first time I saw Jim Carrey really act, and holy crap, he was actually good! But his silly, funny side was still there, which I appreciated. Then of course Ed Harris was amazing as Christof (I love the part where he's orchestrating Truman's reunion with his dad, and also how intense he gets when he's ordering the guy to increase the severity of the storm).

And then there's the music. Philip Glass is honestly hit-or-miss for me, but when it's a hit, it floors me. See also The Hours.

Anyway, yes. I love that movie.

[Haexpane]

Collider wrote...

Agreed, Bioware hates RPGs and wants to rid of them forever. Only then will we have world peace.

Nope, Bioware LOVES MONEY and they don't care if their game is an RPG or a Japanese dating simulator.

They could not care less about any GENRE.

It's like artists, they usually detest being categorized, and hate their own fans.  Bioware is a "tortured artist" who just wants to create, (and make bank) and their most diehard fans are also their biggest headache.

Ain't my fault.    Bioware made Baldur's Gate 2 and it's the greatest game ever.   I'm sorry for loving it?

[Sylvius the Mad]

AlanC9 wrote...

I actually think that Bio's designers just don't particularly like traditional RPG gameplay that much anymore. When they said ME2 was better than ME1, they really meant it.

The weird thing is, I agree with them.  I do think ME2 is, on balance, a better game than ME.

But why I think it's better is probabaly not why BioWare thinks it's better.

[Bryy_Miller]

Haexpane wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Haexpane wrote...

Dragon Age Origins was all I had left.   It's sad to watch a genre die, a genre IMO that produced some of the greatest games I've ever played.

This is all your subjective opinion, though.

No its not, name another party based WRPG coming out or recently released.  There is no opinion about it, it's simply counting the number of games in a certain genre.

You misunderstand me. It's in your opinion that WRPGs are both a genre, and are a specific thing.

[Haexpane]

SirOccam wrote...

Haexpane wrote...

Whoah, whoah, hold on just a second.

Did you really just say Truman Show is one of your favorite movies and you've watched it 20 times? 

No, not at all.

I said many more times than 20.

Seriously though, I loved the premise. As you said, it was an interesting peek at what was to come with reality TV becoming prevalent. You don't see many high concept movies done well, but that was one of them.

I thought the acting was great, and it made me a fan of Laura Linney. It was also the first time I saw Jim Carrey really act, and holy crap, he was actually good! But his silly, funny side was still there, which I appreciated. Then of course Ed Harris was amazing as Christof (I love the part where he's orchestrating Truman's reunion with his dad, and also how intense he gets when he's ordering the guy to increase the severity of the storm).

And then there's the music. Philip Glass is honestly hit-or-miss for me, but when it's a hit, it floors me. See also The Hours.

Anyway, yes. I love that movie.

Linney was amazing in HBO's John Adams

[maxernst]

Haexpane wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Haexpane wrote...

Dragon Age Origins was all I had left.   It's sad to watch a genre die, a genre IMO that produced some of the greatest games I've ever played.

This is all your subjective opinion, though.

No its not, name another party based WRPG coming out or recently released.  There is no opinion about it, it's simply counting the number of games in a certain genre.

What constitutes a genre is a subjective opinion.  I would not consider Oblivion in a separate genre than DA:O personally, it's just Bethesda's house style as opposed to Biowares.  And as I noted above, you've apparently forgotten NWN2, which is about the closest thing to DA:O there has ever been and isn't that old.   There's also been some speculation about a new Might & Magic game, but it may be Heroes VI.  The Might & Magic games have always been squad-based (though never tactical unless IX was).

[Sylvius the Mad]

IX was not.

Haexpane did, however, specify "party based", something Oblivion clearly is not. BioWare has made exactly three party based RPGs: BG, BG2, and DAO.

[maxernst]

But all the M&M games were party based, unless IX wasn't.  In any event, my point was that it's a question of whether you choose to use party-based as a criterion for what constitutes a particular genre.  I don't.  You can slice up genres any way you want.  Want to distinguish Arcanum from Fallout?  Make science-fiction games and fantasy games different genres.  Want to separate Arcanum from Baldur's Gate?  Make turn-based and real time different genres.  Want to separate Baldur's Gate from Dragon Age?  Make 3-D and Isometric perspective games separate genres.  Etc.  You can slice up gaming genres in lots of different ways to make it look like a genre is dying or thriving.

Modifié par maxernst, 13 août 2010 - 12:48 .

[Riona45]

Haexpane wrote...

Nope, Bioware LOVES MONEY and they don't care if their game is an RPG or a Japanese dating simulator.

They could not care less about any GENRE.

It's like artists, they usually detest being categorized, and hate their own fans.  Bioware is a "tortured artist" who just wants to create, (and make bank) and their most diehard fans are also their biggest headache.

...What a bunch of baloney that is based on nothing.

[Sylvius the Mad]

maxernst wrote...

But all the M&M games were party based, unless IX wasn't.

It was.

[Hayllee]

I haven't really replied to any of these threads, but I think I will now. When developers reply to threads (and I know of no other game forum that does this) they don't seem to be telling us to suck it up, because, you know, we don't matter. They're putting facts out about the game and trying to calm people down. I don't think the developers would sacrifice their baby for money. They're trying something different, something they want to do. And they did create the first game, so it's their right, really. There are some things I don't like already, but I can deal with it. There's only one thing that comes to mind that I thought was slightly pointless in Origins in the story, but I dealt with it because that's how they want the game.



On a random note, Sir Occam, my teacher has a banner that has the same thing written in your signature on it. It's freagin' awesome.

[Bryy_Miller]

Haylee, every time I see your avatar, I think they are bald.

[PSUHammer]

Davasar wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Davasar wrote...

Narreneth wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

If they hadn't been focused on bringing in a different market, but on getting similar or slightly higher numbers as they got with DA:O--very good numbers, they would have been in a position to save a lot of time/money on the development of DA:2. They wouldn't have had to remake the graphics, spend time and money voicing the protagonist, creating the the 'improved' interface (heavy sacrcasm), or on making extensive and unnecessary 'cinematics.' They could have just forged ahead, spending that time on extending the world and implementing their new story.

*facepalm*
Again, why do people feel like they know things like this?

Because they're pretentious ass clowns.

Ad homenim attack in attempt to invalidate good points. 

Fail.

I'm confused as to who you are calling the AD HOM attacker, since Nar is responding to me directly, not adding on to my response. If anything, Knight's post could be considered an Ad Hom attack on BioWare. 

Calling someone "an assclown" in order to discredit their opinion?  Thats text book AD HOM right there. 

And the particular poster did not AD HOM attack Bioware.  They stated what Bioware should have done.

Well, to be fair, he did call them "Pretentious ass clowns" so he did kind of justify it.  Just saying.