1133 réponses à ce sujet

[Xena_Shepard]

Tirigon wrote...

filetemo wrote...

pen and paper rules ARE rpgs. it's like saying "having sex is still having sex even if there's no other person than you involved" or "sticking your dick on your own ass is still sex"

NO.

Thing is, masturbating ( = having sex with noone else involved, as you call it) IS in fact a kind of sex........

Wow we're really going to go there? Actually masturbation is NOT a type of sex in any form of the word, because "sex" is just slang for "coitus" and "coitus" is intercourse between two people.

[Tirigon]

Xena_Shepard wrote...


Ok, then by your bull**** logic, EVERY game is an RPG, because you play a role in EVERY single game in EXISTENCE. Period.

Tell me a game and I´ll explain why you don´t roleplay there.

First example:
                                                                Halo.
You don´t choose a single line the Master Chief says, you cannot make a single decision etc...
The only choice you have is following the story or stop playing. So, no roleplaying.

[SirOccam]

Xena_Shepard wrote...

I love how you say I proved my own stupidity and in the same breath you prove what an idiot you are, not even prototypes of "flying cars" exist, now HOVER vehicles, yes, prototypes of those exist, they simply use a fan system to propel themselves a few feet off the ground, thanks for playing.

Yes, we can sit around all day and point at things and say what we think they are called.

I think we've all managed to point out how intellectually useless such an activity is. In fact that's probably the only thing we've managed to do.

[Clover Rider]

I like bikes better

[TMZuk]

FedericoV wrote...

TMZuk wrote...


cRPG's are limited in that sense, because you can only program so many choises and options. However, while the hardware and the programming tools gets better and better, it would seem that Bioware is insisting on creating streamlined action-adventures, where you are rail-roaded along. You meet fascinating characters, and time and time again you are in to your knees in gore, but the actual choises you have, are becoming ever more limited. It's a mad rollercoaster-ride, but like all roller-coaster rides, there can be no deviation.

ME2 had moved so far from the RPG definition, that it no longer could be called an RPG, IMO. I'm pretty certain that is where DA2 is headed as well.

Baldur's Gate has less choices and consequences than ME2. So BG was not an RPG?

What are you talking about? BG and especially BG2 was much much larger games than ME2. There was so much to explore, so much to interact with, and on so many different levels. You could talk your way out of situations, cheat, lie and I know not what. You could utterly ignore the main quest, because there was plenty to do anyway.

Like in ME2, there was a lot of combat as well, but all the quests you came across were much more varied, and many of them did not involve combat.

All this in two games made in -98 and 2000.

Modifié par TMZuk, 14 août 2010 - 02:04 .

[Tirigon]

Xena_Shepard wrote...


I love how you say I proved my own stupidity and in the same breath you prove what an idiot you are, not even prototypes of "flying cars" exist, now HOVER vehicles, yes, prototypes of those exist, they simply use a fan system to propel themselves a few feet off the ground, thanks for playing.

No matter how often you repeat it, you cannot make prototypes of flying cars unexistant.

[filetemo]

SirOccam wrote...

filetemo wrote...

Tirigon wrote...
Wrong. Flying cars are still cars.

And RPGs that don´t follow pen´n´paper-rules are still RPGs if there is roleplaying.

cars have four wheels and don't fly, if they fly, they're not cars.

Why do they have to have four wheels? Just because they normally do?

And although you have declared the three-wheeled variety not to be real cars, it seems plenty of other people do.

I can provide you plenty of links of people sticking dicks on their own asses, and it's still not sex.

And the links are from "sex" websites

[Xena_Shepard]

Tirigon wrote...

Xena_Shepard wrote...


Ok, then by your bull**** logic, EVERY game is an RPG, because you play a role in EVERY single game in EXISTENCE. Period.

Tell me a game and I´ll explain why you don´t roleplay there.

First example:
                                                                Halo.
You don´t choose a single line the Master Chief says, you cannot make a single decision etc...
The only choice you have is following the story or stop playing. So, no roleplaying.

Clearly you have a stupid view of what roleplaying is then, because roleplaying means TO PLAY A ROLE, and in Halo you PLAY THE ROLE of masterchief, even if you don't choose what he says you choose what he DOES. Getting a little tired on the argument front? 'Cause everything you say is bull**** now.

[Xena_Shepard]

Tirigon wrote...

Xena_Shepard wrote...


I love how you say I proved my own stupidity and in the same breath you prove what an idiot you are, not even prototypes of "flying cars" exist, now HOVER vehicles, yes, prototypes of those exist, they simply use a fan system to propel themselves a few feet off the ground, thanks for playing.

No matter how often you repeat it, you cannot make prototypes of flying cars unexistant.

You're right, I can't, because they never existed in the first place, clearly someone needs to learn the difference between "flying" and "hovering" maybe THEN we can have a real argument about it.

[maxernst]

Xena_Shepard wrote...

FedericoV wrote...

Xena_Shepard wrote...


Look up RPG in the dictionary and you get the D&D logo, D&D isn't just the definition of an RPG it's what CREATED the RPG, if it doesn't follow the D&D model (even DAO followed the D&D model it just had its own system instead of the D20 system, D20 system and D&D are two different things) then it can't be classified in the RPG game genre.

D&D was not the first RPG in the history of gaming. D&D was the most successfull RPG for some years, yes, but it has changed many times during its history, considering that there have been 4 editions so far. There are many RPGs without levels, classes, powers and so on. There are even diceless RPGs. RPGs that do not have any focus on items and inventory. Saying that games like Amber, Vampire The Masquerade, Legend of The Five Rings, Basic, Gurps or Call of Ctuluh are not RPG because they do not duplicate the D&D formula, is bull**** honestly.

D&D was created as an expansion of a war game named Chainmail. Over the years it has kept that focus on wargame features. Wich is good for D&D's sake but it's not the only way to roleplay. RPGs have evolved so much during the last 30 years. Fortunately there are different styles of roleplay for different players. I don't know what's the best definition of RPGs. Even Arneson and Gygax (the creators of D&D) has different opinion about that.

Talking about DA2, there is no way to say that the game won't be an RPG because it has/misses feature x or y. Personally I would only like to understand what kind of game will be in terms of gameplay, because while I'm pretty confident about BW storytelling skill (that has improved so much over the years and that get better and better) I really do not understand how the game will look like in terms of gameplay.

As I said, you can label those games "RPG"s all you want, but unless they have the core traits of D&D they aren't RPGs are defined by the game genre, they're action/adventure.

Even ME2 was more shooter/action/adventure with some RPG tacked on somewhere along the line. People seem to think "Oh it has a story it MUST be an RPG because it has a story!!" what kind of bull**** logic is that eh? Halo has a story yet last time I checked it's nothing like an RPG.

You really don't understand what the core innovation of D&D was, and why it was such a revolution in gaming do you?  It wasn't experience point grinding and loot gathering that made it novel.  What was unique about it was that it was a cooperative (usually) rather than competitive game with no set victory conditions and the whole concept of a dungeon master who played the opposition but was not an opponent.  Yes, probably in large part because D&D evolved from Chainmail, the early RPG's were designed with an intent toward heavy combat and medieval settings, but the concept could be applied to literally any setting and situation.  I remember there was a cartoon in the Dragon once showing a group of archetypal D&D characters--wizard with pointy hat, fighter in plate mail etc.--sitting around a table rolling dice and playing "Papers and Paychecks".  Which would be a perfectly valid roleplaying game, although not a very interesting one for us, of course...but maybe if you spent your time fighting monsters, escaping to this strange 20th century world would be exotic and fun.

To my mind, stretching the RPG definition to include ANY single player game is a far bigger stretch than stretching it to encompass things without a particular D&D mechanic like experience points.

[Frank the Running Bugzepel]

Why do people think of RPG they immediately think of D&D? The logic behind that is truly fascinating and beyond me

[Xena_Shepard]

Lady light doorbell wrote...

Why do people think of RPG they immediately think of D&D? The logic behind that is truly fascinating and beyond me

Because D&D defines the RPG genre, that's why, anything else is action/adventure.

[Lomopingseph]

If left to its own devices, every thread on this board will turn into a "true RPG" debate.

[FedericoV]

Xena_Shepard wrote...

Well since D&D invented the RPG game genre...Anything not following the model of inventory systems, attribute points, skills, feats, and being able to customize your character is NOT an RPG, it's an ACTION/ADVENTURE game, pure and simple.

But that's not true. There were other RPGs published before D&D 1st edition. And even if D&D was the first (wich is not true), you can't say that if a game do not duplicate D&D formula is not an RPG because that's plain bull****. You can roleplay without levels, classes and even without skills or dices.

[Frank the Running Bugzepel]

I can think of lots of RPG's that don't use D&D rules (and half of them are stated here), so that logic is invalid or are you stating that PS:T is not a RPG

[Xena_Shepard]

FedericoV wrote...

Xena_Shepard wrote...

Well since D&D invented the RPG game genre...Anything not following the model of inventory systems, attribute points, skills, feats, and being able to customize your character is NOT an RPG, it's an ACTION/ADVENTURE game, pure and simple.

But that's not true. There were other RPGs published before D&D 1st edition. And even if D&D was the first (wich is not true), you can't say that if a game do not duplicate D&D formula is not an RPG because that's plain bull****. You can roleplay without levels, classes and even without skills or dices.

So as you and many other people who don't understand what they're talking about are trying to say is that EVERY  game in existence is an RPG, because you PLAY A ROLE in every game, no matter how unimportant or bland that role is.

[SirOccam]

filetemo wrote...

SirOccam wrote...

filetemo wrote...

Tirigon wrote...
Wrong. Flying cars are still cars.

And RPGs that don´t follow pen´n´paper-rules are still RPGs if there is roleplaying.

cars have four wheels and don't fly, if they fly, they're not cars.

Why do they have to have four wheels? Just because they normally do?

And although you have declared the three-wheeled variety not to be real cars, it seems plenty of other people do.

I can provide you plenty of links of people sticking dicks on their own asses, and it's still not sex.

And the links are from "sex" websites

Wow, that totally has nothing to do with it. That link wasn't a picture of a three-wheeled car. It was a link to an article about three-wheeled cars, the mere existence of which implies that such a thing exists. It begins with the sentence: "A three wheeled car, also known as a tricar or tri-car, is an automobile having either one wheel in the front for steering and two at the rear for power, two in the front for steering and one in the rear for power, or any other combination of layouts."

It also has an interesting thing about how they are classified as motorcycles in the US, but as cars in other places like British Columbia, Canada.

Thank you for sharing your idea about what sex is, but it's really beside the point. Just like whether you agree something is a car, hammer, or RPG. You can say one thing and I can say another all day.

The underlying questions are:
What differences are significant enough to warrant re-classification?
Who decides what those differences are?

The parallel to the topic at hand is that some variations are apparently allowed, and some are not. You have an extremely narrow definition of what makes RPG, while I do not. Paradoxically, you have a relatively loose definition of what defines a car ("four wheels and a steering wheel"). I want to know why "RPG" has to be so strictly defined.

[filetemo]

FedericoV wrote...
 You can roleplay without levels, classes and even without skills or dices.

in real life cosplay roleplaying yes, in CRPGS no.

Modifié par filetemo, 14 août 2010 - 02:01 .

[TMZuk]

SirOccam wrote...

Oh yeah, meant to ask...do you consider DAO an RPG? Because combat isn't turn-based.

I do consider DA:O an RPG, albeit a very restricted one.

I don't care if combat is turnbased or not. I care about that it is my characters skill that counts, as in DA:O, and not my skill, as in ME2.

In effect DA's -is- turnbased, btw, only there are no stops betwen turns. But I am certain the computer goes through loops, calculating, and doing things in some sort of order.

[Xena_Shepard]

Lady light doorbell wrote...

I can think of lots of RPG's that don't use D&D rules (and half of them are stated here), so that logic is invalid or are you stating that PS:T is not a RPG

I never said it had to follow the D&D 'rules' to the letter, they have to have many of the core TRAITS that D&D has, and if they don't then it's an ACTION/ADVENTURE game, or what have you.

A good example would be BioShock, sure it had a fantastic story, you play as an interesting guy, there's guns and a cool power system, but it's an action/adventure/shooter, NOT an RPG.

[Bryy_Miller]

filetemo wrote...

FedericoV wrote...
 You can roleplay without levels, classes and even without skills or dices.

in real life cosplay roleplaying yes, in CRPGS no.

Saying that the point of cosplay is to roleplay is erroneous at best. People don't dress up to go to cons to roleplay. They dress up and go to cons because they want to show that they love the character, and they want attention.

[Xena_Shepard]

TMZuk wrote...

SirOccam wrote...

Oh yeah, meant to ask...do you consider DAO an RPG? Because combat isn't turn-based.

I do consider DA:O an RPG, albeit a very restricted one.

I don't care if combat is turnbased or not. I care about that it is my characters skill that counts, as in DA:O, and not my skill, as in ME2.

In effect DA's -is- turnbased, btw, only there are no stops betwen turns. But I am certain the computer goes through loops, calculating, and doing things in some sort of order.

Yeah DAO is turn-based it's just "behind the scenes" kind of thing, but it IS turn-based, however a game doesn't HAVE to be turn-based to be an RPG.

[maxernst]

filetemo wrote...

FedericoV wrote...
 You can roleplay without levels, classes and even without skills or dices.

in real life cosplay roleplaying yes, in CRPGS no.

The word have god has spoken.  It is so.

[Frank the Running Bugzepel]

Yet it has many of the features that DA2 has, so is DA2 less than RPG than Torment or your definition of RPG only applies to D&D?

[Xena_Shepard]

Lady light doorbell wrote...

Yet it has many of the features that DA2 has, so is DA2 less than RPG than Torment or your definition of RPG only applies to D&D?

First off, get a clue about what I'm talking about, and second this whole thread revolves around the feel that BioWare may take out many of those key features, not that they HAVED or ARE GOING TO, that they MAY, and that them doing so would ruin DA2 and turn it into an action/adventure game rather than an RPG.