1133 réponses à ce sujet

[Tirigon]

Xena_Shepard wrote...

Clearly you have a stupid view of what roleplaying is then, because roleplaying means TO PLAY A ROLE, and in Halo you PLAY THE ROLE of masterchief, even if you don't choose what he says you choose what he DOES. Getting a little tired on the argument front? 'Cause everything you say is bull**** now.

Erm, no, you DON´T choose what he does. All important actions are done in cinematics. You´re just his aim-bot, so to speak.

Don´t misunderstand me, Halo is a great game, but you can´t play a role. You simply help the Master Chief aiming.

Even when it comes to movement you can only decide how long you wait until you take the only path to the next zone.

[Tirigon]

Xena_Shepard wrote...


You're right, I can't, because they never existed in the first place, clearly someone needs to learn the difference between "flying" and "hovering" maybe THEN we can have a real argument about it.

There are flying ones too. Like, with an engine like a jet.

[filetemo]

SirOccam wrote...

 I want to know why "RPG" has to be so strictly defined.

because it's like an exact science,physics are mathematics based, geometry is mathematics based, philosophy is NOT mathematics based, it has no numerical base.An rpg has a gameplay based on numerical variables defined by the player's choices.

So no, you can't say phylosophy is mathematics based even if you could come up with a way to somehow define phylosophycal tendencies with formulaic expressions.

The fact you can "roleplay" anything in your mind makes it not an rpg. An rpg is a mixture of roleplaying a character in your mind and translating your actions in numeric stats on a paper, you can think to do any action you want, but you will be able to do so if the numers on the paper tell you that your skill is high enough to do that, hence the importance of leveling up and increasing your power enormously.

At level 1 you can't move a mountain, no matter how much you tell the DM you want to do it. At level 20 you could even move a planet

[Xena_Shepard]

Tirigon wrote...

Xena_Shepard wrote...

Clearly you have a stupid view of what roleplaying is then, because roleplaying means TO PLAY A ROLE, and in Halo you PLAY THE ROLE of masterchief, even if you don't choose what he says you choose what he DOES. Getting a little tired on the argument front? 'Cause everything you say is bull**** now.

Erm, no, you DON´T choose what he does. All important actions are done in cinematics. You´re just his aim-bot, so to speak.

Don´t misunderstand me, Halo is a great game, but you can´t play a role. You simply help the Master Chief aiming.

Even when it comes to movement you can only decide how long you wait until you take the only path to the next zone.

Then this whole debate boils down to you not understanding what "playing a role" means, it doesn't matter if it happens in a cinematic, you still are PLAYING master chief, I guess you don't play Shepard in ME because a lot of critical stuff happens in cinematics you know.

[Frank the Running Bugzepel]

I did, basically you are stating that D&D = True RPG, which is not true. RPG is a broad family of games in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting, or through a process of structured decision-making or character development and that's from a book quoted from wikipedia.

[FlintlockJazz]

Xena_Shepard wrote...

Lady light doorbell wrote...

I can think of lots of RPG's that don't use D&D rules (and half of them are stated here), so that logic is invalid or are you stating that PS:T is not a RPG

I never said it had to follow the D&D 'rules' to the letter, they have to have many of the core TRAITS that D&D has, and if they don't then it's an ACTION/ADVENTURE game, or what have you.

A good example would be BioShock, sure it had a fantastic story, you play as an interesting guy, there's guns and a cool power system, but it's an action/adventure/shooter, NOT an RPG.

Um, there are other systems other than D&D you do realise?  GURPs, the storytelling system used in White Wolf games like Vampire the Masquerade, Shadowrun, Call of Cthulhu etc.  In fact, D&D is a very limited system and only really covers one style of roleplay, the action style.

[Frank the Running Bugzepel]

This guy has it!

[Tirigon]

filetemo wrote...

in real life cosplay roleplaying yes, in CRPGS no.

If you need D´n´D rules to roleplay, you just suck.
An RPG stays an RPG even if you´re a noob, just like a shooter stays a shooter if you´re too bad to ever hit a target...

[Xena_Shepard]

Tirigon wrote...

Xena_Shepard wrote...


You're right, I can't, because they never existed in the first place, clearly someone needs to learn the difference between "flying" and "hovering" maybe THEN we can have a real argument about it.

There are flying ones too. Like, with an engine like a jet.

Yeah they're called "air planes" a "flying car" is a car that is able to drive on four wheels then somehow get into the air at the flip of a switch, and not even prototypes of those exist, because it's not possible, the only way to MAKE that possible is with anti-gravity technology which will never exist.

[SirOccam]

TMZuk wrote...

SirOccam wrote...

Oh yeah, meant to ask...do you consider DAO an RPG? Because combat isn't turn-based.

I do consider DA:O an RPG, albeit a very restricted one.

I don't care if combat is turnbased or not. I care about that it is my characters skill that counts, as in DA:O, and not my skill, as in ME2.

So why is it okay for it not to be turn-based? Why can that to be removed but nothing else? Is there any reason beyond personal preference?

Besides, I have to say that as much as I like the idea of "character's skill, not player's" as a way to describe RPG combat, player skill is always going to be a part of it. That's why some players can complete solo Nightmare runs and others (like me) can't. Even in PnP it's not like that...it's still smarter to take out heavy damage-dealers or healers first, for example.

If it were truly based 100% on character skill, there should be no advantage or disadvantage to be had by the order in which you engage the enemy or the skills with which you choose to fight them. Sounds exceedingly boring to me.

[Frank the Running Bugzepel]

This reminds me of a question; when does a hill become a mountain?

[Tirigon]

Xena_Shepard wrote...


Then this whole debate boils down to you not understanding what "playing a role" means, it doesn't matter if it happens in a cinematic, you still are PLAYING master chief, I guess you don't play Shepard in ME because a lot of critical stuff happens in cinematics you know.

Maybe I was unclear.

I should have said an RPG is only an RPG if you can DECIDE WHICH ROLE TO PLAY AND HOW. (And no, by "how" I DON´T mean deciding whether you kill that elite with a sniper rifle or a plasma gun).

[filetemo]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Xena_Shepard wrote...

Lady light doorbell wrote...

I can think of lots of RPG's that don't use D&D rules (and half of them are stated here), so that logic is invalid or are you stating that PS:T is not a RPG

I never said it had to follow the D&D 'rules' to the letter, they have to have many of the core TRAITS that D&D has, and if they don't then it's an ACTION/ADVENTURE game, or what have you.

A good example would be BioShock, sure it had a fantastic story, you play as an interesting guy, there's guns and a cool power system, but it's an action/adventure/shooter, NOT an RPG.

Um, there are other systems other than D&D you do realise?  GURPs, the storytelling system used in White Wolf games like Vampire the Masquerade, Shadowrun, Call of Cthulhu etc.  In fact, D&D is a very limited system and only really covers one style of roleplay, the action style.

the point is somebody said pnp rpgs are "accepted" as "possibly valid" definitions of an rpg. pnp rpgs are the one and only valid standard where a computer game can be considered an rpg

[Tirigon]

Xena_Shepard wrote...

Yeah they're called "air planes" a "flying car" is a car that is able to drive on four wheels then somehow get into the air at the flip of a switch, and not even prototypes of those exist, because it's not possible, the only way to MAKE that possible is with anti-gravity technology which will never exist.

EXACTLY the things you described exist. In prototypes only, but I never said anything else. And they use the same technique an airplane uses, only on a smaller scale and modified.

[Xena_Shepard]

Lady light doorbell wrote...

I did, basically you are stating that D&D = True RPG, which is not true. RPG is a broad family of games in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting, or through a process of structured decision-making or character development and that's from a book quoted from wikipedia.

Then why bother with genres at all if everything is just "open to definition" what you say is so unbelieveably STUPID it's beyond comprehension that you want to say "well it can mean a lot of things..." no it CAN'T that's why we HAVE genres so you can PINPOINT whats in a game.

If ya wanna be like that, hell, The Sims is an RPG/Action/Adventure game! Y'know why? Because by your logic, you play a role as the Sim you create, and you do "actions" and you have "adventures" because "action" "adventure" and pretty much any label is defined by how everybody sees it, and when you say RPG the first thing that pops into ANYBODYS head is "D&D" just like if you say "shooter" you think "Halo" or "Modern Warfare"

[filetemo]

SirOccam wrote...

If it were truly based 100% on character skill, there should be no advantage or disadvantage to be had by the order in which you engage the enemy or the skills with which you choose to fight them. Sounds exceedingly boring to me.

rpgs must use mental skills as intelligence. Not physical skills as reflexes or ability to pull combos

In pnp you use intelligence, creativity and knowledge of the rules. There's no physical attitude invloved (and thank god, since most pnp players lack a lot on the physical department)

sometimes you make the bard sing his valour song to ****** him off and get a good laugh , but that's about it.:happy:

[Mydalis]

filetemo wrote...

a FPS is a FPS, if the camera is on the characters ear, it's not a FPS, it's thirdpersonshooter with close to the ear camera.

the definition of an rpg is as monolythic as a fps. it is, or it is not, there's no grey zone.

Sure there is. Science is a bad example. Games are entertainment. Books can mix genre. Movies can mix genre. Why say that video games can not(other than the fact you simply don't like it)? For what it's worth I don't want DA2's combat to be more like ME2 even though I enjoyed that game. But I think the argument is silly.

Yes moving the camera from a first person view disqualifies a game from being an FPS. But what about a game like Portal? Is it an FPS, a platformer, a puzzle game? Can't it be more than one?

The only way your argument works is if combat, or skills, or levels, or whatever arbitraty point you pick is the defining feature of an rpg. I don't think they are, but I suspect we'll never agree on that. You may have concrete definition of what an rpg is to you but judging by the length of this thread- it's open to debate

[Il Divo]

filetemo wrote...

rpgs must use mental skills as intelligence. Not physical skills as reflexes or ability to pull combos

In pnp you use intelligence, creativity and knowledge of the rules. There's no physical attitude invloved (and thank god, since most pnp players lack a lot on the physical department)

Which of course can result in a contradiction. If I attempt to role-play an intelligent wizard or a creative bard, but I myself am not particularly intelligent or creative, I would definitely say that this is an instance of player ability impacting character ability whether physical or mental.

[Frank the Running Bugzepel]

Then why are we having this discussion? You obviously have to force your opinion towards the rest of the members when it comes to this when other pointed to the contrary. Then by your logic about my reasoning, yes every single game is an RPG because we are role playing them, that's the whole point. And I can guess by your definition of RPGs, cowboys and Indians are not considered to be RPG then

[FedericoV]

Xena_Shepard wrote...
So as you and many other people who don't understand what they're talking about are trying to say is that EVERY  game in existence is an RPG, because you PLAY A ROLE in every game, no matter how unimportant or bland that role is.

First of all, I've got a question for you: have you ever played anything except D&D? If your answer is no, then you are the person who do not really know what he's talking about. RPGs have allways been about many different things and are difficult to define strictly: storytelling, roleplaying a charachter, interaction with the gaming environment with choices and consequences that affects the storytelling, rules to settle those interaction with the environment, etc. etc.-etc. That's are all bulk features of what is defined an RPG. Rules could be fie hundred pages long or contained in one page and the game could be still an RPG.

Modifié par FedericoV, 14 août 2010 - 02:26 .

[Clover Rider]

It's like I said Super Sentai of today is not like the old shows but it has spandex and good plots that is all i need and DA2 just needs to be fun.

[filetemo]

Il Divo wrote...

filetemo wrote...

rpgs must use mental skills as intelligence. Not physical skills as reflexes or ability to pull combos

In pnp you use intelligence, creativity and knowledge of the rules. There's no physical attitude invloved (and thank god, since most pnp players lack a lot on the physical department)

Which of course can result in a contradiction. If I attempt to role-play an intelligent wizard or a creative bard, but I myself am not particularly intelligent or creative, I would definitely say that this is an instance of player ability impacting character ability whether physical or mental.

it's called metagaming. DM strongly avoid this or directly do not allow this. If you know something your character doesn't, you can't use that in-game.If you wanna play a creative bard but yourself are not very creative, the right way is to ask the DM "I do have a stat of 45 in charisma, can I come up with a song that motivates the soldiers?

And the DM says "Indeed, you compose an inspiring song that gives them +6 hitpoints"

You do not need to create the song. If you can't come up with something funny, the DM will declare you did it in game.

[SirOccam]

filetemo wrote...

SirOccam wrote...

 I want to know why "RPG" has to be so strictly defined.

because it's like an exact science,physics are mathematics based, geometry is mathematics based, philosophy is NOT mathematics based, it has no numerical base.An rpg has a gameplay based on numerical variables defined by the player's choices.

I'm sorry, but this is just wrong. Applying genre labels is NOT, by ANY means whatsoever, an exact science. It's not a science at all. The fact that these games use numbers does not make them science. And even if it did, even labeling scientific areas of study is not itself a science. Some things blur the line between astrophysics and quantum mechanics, for example. Sometimes things belong to more than one area, sometimes no known area, at which point a new term is formed. The entire concept of naming things is subjectively-based, by definition.

The closest science comes is probably the taxonomy and nomenclature found in Biology. There are strict rules about what is or is not a bird, for example, and any scientist who goes "look, it has wings, so it's a bird and that is that" would be a laughingstock. So would one who insists that penguins aren't birds because they can't fly and their "idea" of what a bird is is something that flies.

The fact you can "roleplay" anything in your mind makes it not an rpg. An rpg is a mixture of roleplaying a character in your mind and translating your actions in numeric stats on a paper, you can think to do any action you want, but you will be able to do so if the numers on the paper tell you that your skill is high enough to do that, hence the importance of leveling up and increasing your power enormously.

I never said that any time you can RP in your mind, that makes something an RPG. I don't think Halo is an RPG even though there's nothing stopping from me imagining a huge backstory or alternative motivations for Master Chief. I don't have such a strict definition at all.

My definition is something like "an RPG is a game in which you take on the persona of a character you've created, and you make their decisions interpersonally as well as regarding the development of their strengths and weaknesses." That's probably not even a good one.

The important parts are choice and story. If I dont feel like I have adequate control of a character, it won't feel like an RPG to me. Also if I have tons of control but there's no story that my character affects and influences, then it's more like a sim.

If I ever come across a game that feels like an RPG but doesn't fit this description, I'll revise it accordingly. The application of labels is a descriptive act, not a prescriptive one. In other words, the label describes, it doesn't control or influence.

Modifié par SirOccam, 14 août 2010 - 02:30 .

[Bryy_Miller]

filetemo wrote...

SirOccam wrote...

If it were truly based 100% on character skill, there should be no advantage or disadvantage to be had by the order in which you engage the enemy or the skills with which you choose to fight them. Sounds exceedingly boring to me.

rpgs must use mental skills as intelligence. Not physical skills as reflexes or ability to pull combos

In pnp you use intelligence, creativity and knowledge of the rules. There's no physical attitude invloved (and thank god, since most pnp players lack a lot on the physical department)

sometimes you make the bard sing his valour song to ****** him off and get a good laugh , but that's about it.:happy:

You should most likely move on to a new concept, since playing a game requires intelligence.

[SirOccam]

filetemo wrote...

the point is somebody said pnp rpgs are "accepted" as "possibly valid" definitions of an rpg. pnp rpgs are the one and only valid standard where a computer game can be considered an rpg

...in your opinion.