1133 réponses à ce sujet

[Nozybidaj]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Ensgnblack wrote...

I just caught up to reading the whole thread, and Stanely, I agree with everything you said there. COnsumers are not the ones creating the game. Let the designers design and purchase it if you endorse their product.

True. And let me reiterate that there's nothing wrong with loving a product, character, or setting so much that you don't want it to change, or so much that it becomes a part of you. Nothing wrong with that, despite my aversion to some of the fanfic and fan art out there. but stamping one's feet and saying "no, it can't change" and holding one's breath as if to stop creators from doing  their job is a little nonsensical.

Where would some of our most beloved characters and settings be without some kind of change or addition? i already used Batman as an example. Look at how much more popular the Lord of the Rings became after the movies came out. And the movies changed things, and purists were outraged! didn't stop the movies from being good and enjoyable and spawning many different board game products and RPGs and action figures and things.

i may be biased, but I don't think Dragon Age 2 is going to be the "death of all RPGs" or "killing of my favourite puppy" that some folks fear it will be. It certainly won't be quite the same as DAO, but we think it'll have more than enough "Dragon Age-ness" in it to keep folks satisfied. And even if you don't agree, that's just us having a difference of opinion rather than us deliberately ruining your favourite game and your favourite genre and the industry as a whole for no reason other than money money money money money bwahahahaha. it's a big difference.

People aren't necessarily averse to change.  People do however tend to rage at nonsensical or just outright stupid change.  In your LotR movie example if we came in at Two Towers and Frodo was suddenly a zombie-cyborg or Theramir had horns and weird body paintings  I don't think folks would have considered that "change for the better". 

I do agree that, hey its your game, do what you want with it.  We are not however "passive" consumers.  We actively choose which games we do and don't buy.  At least I certainly will be.

[TheMadCat]

Wow, I've seen debates on the meaning of life be less heated then this. Not sure why people are looking at one aspect as the thing that defines an RPG. An items genre is defined by the majority of elements it contains and what category they traditionally fall under. Traditional elements of an RPG are usually seen as...



Character customization (From a stat perspective), Character progression, A single character perspective, story and dialogue choice, a loot system, an economy (Can be as simple as buy/sell or more complex like some Oblivion mods), an inventory system, and a party system.



If a game contains most if not all of these elements then it can be classes as some sort of RPG, be it true or a hybrid (IE. STALKER being an FPS/RPG hyprid). Choice along doesn't make an RPG, every game relies on player input. Stats alone don't make an RPG, almost every game relies on stats be it hidden and minute or obvious and crucial. People make this way more complicated then it should be.

[thebrah]

TheMadCat wrote...

Wow, I've seen debates on the meaning of life be less heated then this. Not sure why people are looking at one aspect as the thing that defines an RPG. An items genre is defined by the majority of elements it contains and what category they traditionally fall under. Traditional elements of an RPG are usually seen as...

Character customization (From a stat perspective), Character progression, A single character perspective, story and dialogue choice, a loot system, an economy (Can be as simple as buy/sell or more complex like some Oblivion mods), an inventory system, and a party system.

If a game contains most if not all of these elements then it can be classes as some sort of RPG, be it true or a hybrid (IE. STALKER being an FPS/RPG hyprid). Choice along doesn't make an RPG, every game relies on player input. Stats alone don't make an RPG, almost every game relies on stats be it hidden and minute or obvious and crucial. People make this way more complicated then it should be.

yes that's why gears of war 2 won rpg of the year.

[asaiasai]

I think some of it is that game design is art, and art has this ability if done well to evoke an emotional response. That response is not just from the viewer but the creator as well. I think the issue is a communication one where as the patron is asking for a idillic meadow scene and the artist is envisioning some post apocolypse meadow scene. Art can not survive with out patrons, but art can not survive if you do not allow the artist to grow. The magic is in the balance, as the artist needs to provide just enough of what the patron asked for, while the patron needs to understand that the artist has to be free from restraint to create. In ME we got a full oil on canvas in ME2 we got a pencil sketch, and to have the concern that DA2 will be similar in outcome is valid because the artist has already done it once. True enough that the artist has the right to go in the direction thier feelings take them, so while the patron asks for oils, all the artist feels like is charcoal or pencil, which means that the patron may have to go to another gallery for oils, i am just saying that in that situation both loose.



Asai

[thebrah]

asaiasai wrote...

I think some of it is that game design is art, and art has this ability if done well to evoke an emotional response. That response is not just from the viewer but the creator as well. I think the issue is a communication one where as the patron is asking for a idillic meadow scene and the artist is envisioning some post apocolypse meadow scene. Art can not survive with out patrons, but art can not survive if you do not allow the artist to grow. The magic is in the balance, as the artist needs to provide just enough of what the patron asked for, while the patron needs to understand that the artist has to be free from restraint to create. In ME we got a full oil on canvas in ME2 we got a pencil sketch, and to have the concern that DA2 will be similar in outcome is valid because the artist has already done it once. True enough that the artist has the right to go in the direction thier feelings take them, so while the patron asks for oils, all the artist feels like is charcoal or pencil, which means that the patron may have to go to another gallery for oils, i am just saying that in that situation both loose.

Asai

game design is not art. never has been.

[TheMadCat]

thebrah wrote...

TheMadCat wrote...

Wow, I've seen debates on the meaning of life be less heated then this. Not sure why people are looking at one aspect as the thing that defines an RPG. An items genre is defined by the majority of elements it contains and what category they traditionally fall under. Traditional elements of an RPG are usually seen as...

Character customization (From a stat perspective), Character progression, A single character perspective, story and dialogue choice, a loot system, an economy (Can be as simple as buy/sell or more complex like some Oblivion mods), an inventory system, and a party system.

If a game contains most if not all of these elements then it can be classes as some sort of RPG, be it true or a hybrid (IE. STALKER being an FPS/RPG hyprid). Choice along doesn't make an RPG, every game relies on player input. Stats alone don't make an RPG, almost every game relies on stats be it hidden and minute or obvious and crucial. People make this way more complicated then it should be.

yes that's why gears of war 2 won rpg of the year.

I'll help you out since everything just blew past you there. The biggest element in defining a game is still the combat style and camera and/or character movement. You see where I talked about STALKER and hybrids? STALKER contains a fairshare of RPG elements, but it isn't an RPG because it's main element is it's combat and camera/character perspective all attributed to the FPS genre where success is derived mostly from character skill rather then statistical building. Exactly like GoW2, except thats a TPS instead of a FPS.

[ninja0809]

rpg is srs bsns

[Aradace]

filetemo wrote...

In Exile wrote...



No; Dragon Age: Journeys was a turn-based RPG.

A turn-based RPG depends on how the round mechanics work; round mechanics do not exist in DA. With individual rounds that are not anchored, you're really hitting real-time in every meaningful sense of the word.

no

no

no

no.you.don't.

there's round mechanics in DA, developers said it time ago.

Hate to tell you genius but DA:O was NOT turn based combat....It was "Real Time" combat.  "Turn Based " combat as defined in RPGs is when the flow of combat stops for any reason (which it doesnt) to select an action for each member of your group (which again, unless you are selecting actions for your entire party you do NOT.) and then the flow of combat continues.  Dont know about you but I dont consider a brief "pause" at the beginning of combat to be turn based.  It's simply a mechanic to help sift through the chaos.  To which, I never used anyway so AGAIN, all my combat was going in in RT.  I dont give a crap who said otherwise...DAO was NOT a turn based combat system.

[asaiasai]

thebrah wrote...

asaiasai wrote...

I think some of it is that game design is art, and art has this ability if done well to evoke an emotional response. That response is not just from the viewer but the creator as well. I think the issue is a communication one where as the patron is asking for a idillic meadow scene and the artist is envisioning some post apocolypse meadow scene. Art can not survive with out patrons, but art can not survive if you do not allow the artist to grow. The magic is in the balance, as the artist needs to provide just enough of what the patron asked for, while the patron needs to understand that the artist has to be free from restraint to create. In ME we got a full oil on canvas in ME2 we got a pencil sketch, and to have the concern that DA2 will be similar in outcome is valid because the artist has already done it once. True enough that the artist has the right to go in the direction thier feelings take them, so while the patron asks for oils, all the artist feels like is charcoal or pencil, which means that the patron may have to go to another gallery for oils, i am just saying that in that situation both loose.

Asai

game design is not art. never has been.

For such a limited individual you do seem to be everywhere, leaping and prancing about in ignorance it is quite cute actually, like a barky puppy. Consider this your thump on the nose followed by bad puppy .  Art is the taking of nothing whether it be a blank canvas, a block of marble, or lines of code and creating something where nothing existed before. Now to further my point, evey character model, background, story element in a game IS a form of art, just not in the traditional sense, some one had to take a mental vision and put form to it just because that form is a digital representation does not diminish the artistic qualities or requirements. Seriously dude you need to talk less, listen more, and read read read, but you will not which is quite hilarious and sad at the same time. Now hopefully the puppy will go away and leave the old dog alone if not i shall be required to bite you again.

Asai

Modifié par asaiasai, 14 août 2010 - 08:58 .

[thebrah]

asaiasai wrote...

thebrah wrote...

asaiasai wrote...

I think some of it is that game design is art, and art has this ability if done well to evoke an emotional response. That response is not just from the viewer but the creator as well. I think the issue is a communication one where as the patron is asking for a idillic meadow scene and the artist is envisioning some post apocolypse meadow scene. Art can not survive with out patrons, but art can not survive if you do not allow the artist to grow. The magic is in the balance, as the artist needs to provide just enough of what the patron asked for, while the patron needs to understand that the artist has to be free from restraint to create. In ME we got a full oil on canvas in ME2 we got a pencil sketch, and to have the concern that DA2 will be similar in outcome is valid because the artist has already done it once. True enough that the artist has the right to go in the direction thier feelings take them, so while the patron asks for oils, all the artist feels like is charcoal or pencil, which means that the patron may have to go to another gallery for oils, i am just saying that in that situation both loose.

Asai

game design is not art. never has been.

For such a limited individual you do seem to be everywhere, leaping and prancing about in ignorance it is quite cute actually, like a barky puppy. Consider this your thump on the nose followed by bad puppy .  Art is the taking of nothing whether it be a blank canvas, a block of marble, or lines of code and creating something where nothing existed before. Now to further my point, evey character model, background, story element in a game IS a form of art, just not in the traditional sense, some one had to take a mental vision and put form to it just because that form is a digital representation does not diminish the artistic qualities or requirements. Seriously dude you need to talk less, listen more, and read read read, but you will not which is quite hilarious and sad at the same time. Now hopefully the puppy will go away and leave the old dog alone if not i shall be required to bite you again.

Asai

no. 
Can I be for real, dis is how I feel, I'm in need of love, so let's dip up out of here.

[Tantum Dic Verbo]

filetemo wrote...

the point is somebody said pnp rpgs are "accepted" as "possibly valid" definitions of an rpg. pnp rpgs are the one and only valid standard where a computer game can be considered an rpg

You say this as though tabletop RPG's are all pretty much the same thing.  Check out Sorcerer, Dogs in the Vineyard, Capes, or My Life with Master, to name a few RPG's that might not work with your idea of an RPG.  Ironically, these are all games designed to address gaming in a way that makes role-playing the central fact of the game, rather than game mechanics married to a battlegrid.

There is no rigid definition of an RPG.  Usually it boils down to "what I'm used to," or "what I like".  A lot of the supposed elements of a "real" RPG have been abandoned in a great many RPG's.  CRPG's will predictably be different, because they are presented in a different medium.

[Lawrence- Mage of the Grey Wardens]

 All the people talking about Halo and whatnot being RPGs are just being stupid/trolling/playing devil's advocate.
Not every game where you control a character is an RPG.
If you don't make choices about the characters in the game as far as stats/skill growth and or the way the character feels about the situations they face then that game is NOT an RPG.

Now occasionally, some games tack on RPG elements like God of War. In GoW, you add stats to decide which way you want to destroy enemies, but at the end of the day you can't choose to take Kratos in a different direction than another player would and use him differently. Everyone ends up playing the same way because there is no role playing. You perform the actions that are dictated. There are no choices so God of War is not an RPG. It's an action game featuring a stat element that really doesn't contribute to the main part of the game, which is slashing stuff and looking like a bad-butt.



Just to reiterate:

Halo- Shooter

DAO- RPG

ME2- Shooter with tacked on (non-essential) RPG elements

Modifié par Lawrence- Mage of the Grey Wardens, 14 août 2010 - 09:25 .

[thebrah]

Lawrence- Mage of the Grey Wardens wrote...

 Now occasionally, some games tack on RPG elements like God of War. In GoW, you add stats to decide which way you want to destroy enemies, but at the end of the day you can't choose to take Kratos in a different direction than another player would and use him differently. Everyone ends up playing the same way because there is no role playing. You perform the actions that are dictated. There are no choices so God of War is not an RPG. It's an action game featuring a stat element that really doesn't contribute to the main part of the game, which is slashing stuff and looking like a bad-****.



Just to reiterate:

Halo- Shooter

DAO- RPG

ME2- Shooter with tacked on (non-essential) RPG elements

These girls ain’t got nothing on you
Uhh, say baby I had to mention
That if you were a star you’d be the one I’m searching for
All the girls they got attention
But I just always feel like there in need of something you got
Its obvious you’re pretty
Heard that your a student working weekends in the city
Trying to take you out girl, hope your not too busy
And if there’s nothing wrong, got this little song
For you to get ready to
Put those ****ing heels on and work it girl
Let that mirror show you what your doing
Put that ****ing dress on and work it kind of vicious
Like somebody’s taking pictures

[Chorus]
Shut it down down down
You would shut it down down down
You be the baddest girl around round round
And they notice they notice
You would shut it down down down
You be the baddest girl around round round
And they notice they notice
You would shut it, hey oh
These girls aint got nothing on you,
Nothing on you

[The Dream]
Girl you’re the greatest
And if he say you aint
Girl he’s out his mind
You’re the finest
And if he say you aint
That boy done lost his mind
Hey baby, everytime you come around
Shut it down like computers
Hey lady, step into my heart
And put you in the louboutins,
What you want
What you need
I can be (I can be)
Your everything
(who knew)
Them other n-ggas
Just wanna hit it but if they had it
Wouldn’t know what to do with it
(and together)

[Drake & The Dream]
We shut it down down down
They know we shut it down down down
Your the baddest girl around, round round
They know this, they know this
(repeated)

[The Dream]
TMZ, Concrete loop
You shut that muth****er down down
Ice cream conversations they all want the scoop
You shut that mutha****er down down down

[Drake]
Shooting Stars all around her, fire. comets.
I could bring her through and shut them down, Onyx
No, you’re not imagining, they’re looking at you long stares
Even though she’s standing out she looks like she belongs here
You feel the hours pass, until you find somethin’
I feel like when she moves – the time doesn’t
Yeah, baby you finer than your fine cousin
And your cousin fine, but she don’t have my heart beating in double time
You just shut it down, girl
Who told the cops where the party was?
Why do I feel like I found The One?
What’s in these shots that you ordered us?
Damn. I mean you sure know how to paint a town
Ever since you came around its obvious you shut it down

You shut that sh-t down (down down down)
You shut it down (down down down)
You shut it down (down down down)
You shut it down (down down down)
You shut it down (down down down)
You shut it, ohh

[Drake]
You know this, you know this

You looking good girl
Go go go get em girl,
Go go go go hit em girl
Go go go go go go
You shut it down

Modifié par thebrah, 14 août 2010 - 09:28 .

[asaiasai]

thebrah wrote...

asaiasai wrote...

thebrah wrote...

asaiasai wrote...

I think some of it is that game design is art, and art has this ability if done well to evoke an emotional response. That response is not just from the viewer but the creator as well. I think the issue is a communication one where as the patron is asking for a idillic meadow scene and the artist is envisioning some post apocolypse meadow scene. Art can not survive with out patrons, but art can not survive if you do not allow the artist to grow. The magic is in the balance, as the artist needs to provide just enough of what the patron asked for, while the patron needs to understand that the artist has to be free from restraint to create. In ME we got a full oil on canvas in ME2 we got a pencil sketch, and to have the concern that DA2 will be similar in outcome is valid because the artist has already done it once. True enough that the artist has the right to go in the direction thier feelings take them, so while the patron asks for oils, all the artist feels like is charcoal or pencil, which means that the patron may have to go to another gallery for oils, i am just saying that in that situation both loose.

Asai

game design is not art. never has been.

For such a limited individual you do seem to be everywhere, leaping and prancing about in ignorance it is quite cute actually, like a barky puppy. Consider this your thump on the nose followed by bad puppy .  Art is the taking of nothing whether it be a blank canvas, a block of marble, or lines of code and creating something where nothing existed before. Now to further my point, evey character model, background, story element in a game IS a form of art, just not in the traditional sense, some one had to take a mental vision and put form to it just because that form is a digital representation does not diminish the artistic qualities or requirements. Seriously dude you need to talk less, listen more, and read read read, but you will not which is quite hilarious and sad at the same time. Now hopefully the puppy will go away and leave the old dog alone if not i shall be required to bite you again.

Asai

no. 
Can I be for real, dis is how I feel, I'm in need of love, so let's dip up out of here.

Sure anytime provided of course you contribute something of value to the conversation. Provided of course you can articulate the point you are trying to make. Provided of course you have a point. I can not be any more real than that dawg.

Asai

[GameBoyish]

asaiasai wrote...

thebrah wrote...

asaiasai wrote...

I think some of it is that game design is art, and art has this ability if done well to evoke an emotional response. That response is not just from the viewer but the creator as well. I think the issue is a communication one where as the patron is asking for a idillic meadow scene and the artist is envisioning some post apocolypse meadow scene. Art can not survive with out patrons, but art can not survive if you do not allow the artist to grow. The magic is in the balance, as the artist needs to provide just enough of what the patron asked for, while the patron needs to understand that the artist has to be free from restraint to create. In ME we got a full oil on canvas in ME2 we got a pencil sketch, and to have the concern that DA2 will be similar in outcome is valid because the artist has already done it once. True enough that the artist has the right to go in the direction thier feelings take them, so while the patron asks for oils, all the artist feels like is charcoal or pencil, which means that the patron may have to go to another gallery for oils, i am just saying that in that situation both loose.

Asai

game design is not art. never has been.

For such a limited individual you do seem to be everywhere, leaping and prancing about in ignorance it is quite cute actually, like a barky puppy. Consider this your thump on the nose followed by bad puppy .  Art is the taking of nothing whether it be a blank canvas, a block of marble, or lines of code and creating something where nothing existed before. Now to further my point, evey character model, background, story element in a game IS a form of art, just not in the traditional sense, some one had to take a mental vision and put form to it just because that form is a digital representation does not diminish the artistic qualities or requirements. Seriously dude you need to talk less, listen more, and read read read, but you will not which is quite hilarious and sad at the same time. Now hopefully the puppy will go away and leave the old dog alone if not i shall be required to bite you again.

Asai

It's funny how it answers then goes back to stuff it found on Google. Have you tried reporting it yet?? I'm trying so hard, nothing's working...

[Merced256]

Why is halo not a RPG under their definition? Hell Need for Speed might as well be a RPG too by their definition because you're portrayed as the driver in the story and you get to customize your vehicle and upgrade it. Hell you can even say there are levels because of the way you progress in it.



If Halo and NFSU aren't RPGs then i would contend that ME2 isn't a RPG either. ME2's "RPG elements" are about as useful as the fictional ones found in Halo or NFSU.



If you think thats stupid, then i would wonder why you might also feel that D&D defining RPG gameplay is too restrictive on what constitutes the genre. Either way, ME2 wasn't a RPG, at least not a good RPG. So why then should we automatically assume DA2 will be a good RPG when its essentially becoming Dragon Effect?

[Novadove]

as long as you assumes a game character and controlling that character, it is a RPG.



as time passed, kids grows up, RPG became diversified. I'd to admit some old school rpg players who played eyes of the beholders and ultima 1 like me has certain square box for us to define what's a true RPG.



Sadly, modern and contermporary RPG are "micro-managing-less" and it makes some of the older players upset.



DA2 has a tendancy to move to that direction, more like halo or ME2 and it is rather uncomfortable.

Furthermore, from the screenshots bioware is providing, it looks further rpg-less.



1 solution is for bioware to provide screen shots of inventory system and many doubts will be solved. However, that's not all. simply because the current screenshots look more "fantasized"

and lost the realism DAO has.



guess we can only wait and see how it progress.

[Tirigon]

filetemo wrote...

it's called metagaming. DM strongly avoid this or directly do not allow this. If you know something your character doesn't, you can't use that in-game.If you wanna play a creative bard but yourself are not very creative, the right way is to ask the DM "I do have a stat of 45 in charisma, can I come up with a song that motivates the soldiers?

And the DM says "Indeed, you compose an inspiring song that gives them +6 hitpoints"

You do not need to create the song. If you can't come up with something funny, the DM will declare you did it in game.

Seems like PnP sucks dogass....

[Few87]

filetemo wrote...

They say they want to push the rpg genre, but it's not true, what they want is to make interactive adventures.

In bioware's wildest dreams, they get rid of inventory, skills, tactical combat, leveling up, customisation options and stats. All those heavy and difficult to learn rpg things that make them unatractive to casual gamers. They can't do it yet, because hardcore rpg gamers still have power, but they really would like their games to stop getting labeled rpgs, because that's like a stigma for the fps crowd.

Bioware's perfect game would be: premade character, choices, love interests, different endings and simple combat "press A to win" they are moving slowly to that, Heavy Rain with swords and magic.

Do you remember those books of "choose your own adventure"? that's what bioware wants to do.

They are forcing us to assume slowly the changes made to dilute the rpg traits, and in 5 years we will call bioware games "adventures" because the rpgs will be no more.

Then maybe, they'll get their dream of selling 10 million units.

Oh god its so true...so true. But i think you are mistaken in that they will keep choices, their ultimate goal is for dragon mass 6 to be absorbed into the Call of Duty franchise and maybe just have multiplayer only extreme casual combat cool laser flying dragon awesome sim. 

[Tirigon]

filetemo wrote...

there's round mechanics in DA, developers said it time ago.

If your claim is true they lied.

[Lawrence- Mage of the Grey Wardens]

All I know is, the stuff I'm hearing about this game screams "Fable 2." I'm preparing for the worst.



All signs point to this game being bad in the most random of ways.





I swear to god there better not be a measly sum of 5 spells with *upgrades.* "Now your Force Push reaches out further!" ------See Fable 2.



They won't tell it to us straight but they're dumbing it down.





Be prepared.

[Tirigon]

filetemo wrote...

SirOccam wrote...

Math is about as exact as you can get.

as is the definition of an rpg, computer-based or pnp

are you guys trying to """"win"""" the argument by exhaustion? because you should just say so.

Guy, we won long ago. You´re just acting like the German soldiers in WW2 who would rather have fought to death than to surrender, though the war was lost since a year already.

[Lawrence- Mage of the Grey Wardens]

Novadove wrote...

as long as you assumes a game character and controlling that character, it is a RPG.
 

Are you saying Halo is an RPG?

OK, I'll play along with the crowd.



EVERY game that doesn't feature the actual person holding the mouse/controller is an RPG.


Having said that, I am proposing that we stop calling real role playing games RPGs and start calling them character-builders so that all the silly people playing semantics know what we are talking about.



Halo is not a character-builder. However, it is an RPG.



lol This is so silly...

[Tirigon]

asaiasai wrote...


For such a limited individual you do seem to be everywhere, leaping and prancing about in ignorance it is quite cute actually, like a barky puppy. Consider this your thump on the nose followed by bad puppy .  Art is the taking of nothing whether it be a blank canvas, a block of marble, or lines of code and creating something where nothing existed before. Now to further my point, evey character model, background, story element in a game IS a form of art, just not in the traditional sense, some one had to take a mental vision and put form to it just because that form is a digital representation does not diminish the artistic qualities or requirements. Seriously dude you need to talk less, listen more, and read read read, but you will not which is quite hilarious and sad at the same time. Now hopefully the puppy will go away and leave the old dog alone if not i shall be required to bite you again.

Asai

Thing is, it´s only art if it´s good. If it sucks, it´s not art.
That´s why Matrix 1 is art, and the other two Matrix movies are not (they sucked horribly).

And that´s why a game like WarCraft3 is art, a game like CoD is not. I´m not sure in which side DAO fits.

[Tirigon]

Lawrence- Mage of the Grey Wardens wrote...

Having said that, I am proposing that we stop calling real role playing games RPGs and start calling them character-builders so that all the silly people playing semantics know what we are talking about.

The irony... You are saying this like it´s meant as sarcasm, yet it´s the most intelligent suggestion I´ve ever heard from an old-school Character builder.

Halo is not a character-builder. However, it is an RPG.

Well, I´m not sure. You are not really playing a role in Halo as you can´t make decisions, choose the protagonist´s personality etc....