1133 réponses à ce sujet

[Lawrence- Mage of the Grey Wardens]

Tirigon wrote...
The irony... You are saying this like it´s meant as sarcasm, yet it´s the most intelligent suggestion I´ve ever heard from an old-school Character builder.

I'm just up late playing the stupid-game with everyone else. Just trying to rationalize non-roleplaying games into the RPG genre for the sake of being silly.


"Halo is an RPG." ----The world truly has gone insane.

[Tirigon]

Lawrence- Mage of the Grey Wardens wrote...


I'm just up late playing the stupid-game with everyone else. Just trying to rationalize non-roleplaying games into the RPG genre for the sake of being silly.


"Halo is an RPG." ----The world truly has gone insane.

I know. What I mean is that your suggestion is still valid. Some people here really only care for the character build in an RPG.

For me, Halo is NOT an RPG as you can´t choose your character, his personality and various outcomes.

However, in spite of the combat mechanics, Halo COULD be an RPG if you could choose gender and look of the Masterchief, had plenty of dialogue, possibly romances, the choice to play in different ways, for example diplomatic instead of killing everyone etc.... and, MOST IMPORTANTLY, the chance to influence the storyline. Maybe, in one ending humanity allies with the elite (like in Halo3), in another you wipe them all out, in a 3rd you ally with brutes etc....

Admittedly, that stuff would totally not fit to Halo´s lore, but hopefully you understand what I mean.

[In Exile]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
It's a skill that exists outside the game world.

Twitch combat is a skill that needs to exist inside the game world.

That's not true, however. Both exist outside the gameworld. You talked about paralysis as an example of who you think should play an RPG, but slowly. What about an amnesiac, lacking in short-term memory? 

The amnesiac could become quite good at an FPS (because an FPS is procedural). The amnesiac would never be able to play an RPG. His skill must exist in the gameworld - he must have memory to remember the system and controls, memory to remember the function of the buttons, etc.

The latter breaks the game.  The former does not.

Both break the game; you're just ascribing special significance to a particular non-conscious cognitive process.

[filetemo]

do you know what amnesia is? and alzheimer? are you sure you aren't mixing a bit of them to create that pseudo-scientific response?

[In Exile]

filetemo wrote...

rpg involve mind skill, fps require physical skill, because it requires coordination between brain-eye-hand. rpg only requires to "think" not to "think and then move accordingly and fast"

is it so hard to understand? I already gave the 90 year old playing DAO example.

That's not physical skill. Dexterity in your fingers we can argue is a physical skill, but supposing you do not have medical conditions like those I referenced above (e.g. arthiris or MS) then your dexterity is really not an impediment to playing the game. What is an impediment is your ability to rapidly process information and distribugte attention, and that's just all cognitive.

Seriously, this is not up for debate. These are decade long definitions of scientific phemonena.

[In Exile]

filetemo wrote...

do you know what amnesia is? and alzheimer? are you sure you aren't mixing a bit of them to create that pseudo-scientific response?

http://en.wikipedia....rograde_amnesia

Some highlights:

"Anterograde amnesia is a loss of the ability to create new memories after the event that caused the amnesia,leading to a partial or complete inability to recall the recent past, while long term memories from before the event remain intact."

"The most famous case that has been reported is that of patient Henry Molaison, known as H.M., in 1957 (Scoville and Milner). H.M.'s chief complaint was the persistence of severe seizures after he had a bilateral lobectomy (both of his MTLs were removed). As a result, H.M. had bilateral damage to both the hippocampal formation and the  perirhinal cortex. H.M. had normal intelligence, perceptual ability, anda decent vocabulary, but he could not remember any new words or learn  new tasks. He was the first well-documented case of severe anterograde amnesia, and was still being studied[2] up until his death in 2008.[10]"

So there is no confusion. This is a specific memory disorder, related exclusively to the formation of new short-term memories.

So to be blunt: I'm doing my undergraduate thesis in cognitive neuroscience. I'm well aware of what is scientific in this field and what isn't.

Modifié par In Exile, 14 août 2010 - 12:08 .

[filetemo]

does playing monopoly require physical skill?

[In Exile]

filetemo wrote...

does playing monopoly require physical skill?

No. In fact playing monopoly would require less physical skill than playing an FPS, as you could theoreticallly instruct an able-bodied person to play for you, where you to have only the capacity to communicate. Your point?

Our debate isn't about what a physical skill is or not; it's a debate on whether or not player skill influences the character, which quite honestly is a nonsense argument since the whole point of a game is for some skill to influence it, otherwise it would have to be some kind of sentient self-playing game, defeating the whole purpose for its existence.

[filetemo]

In Exile wrote...

filetemo wrote...

does playing monopoly require physical skill?

No

nor does playing an pnp rpg. We needed 13 pages to reach to this conclusion?

[In Exile]

filetemo wrote...

nor does playing an pnp rpg. We needed 13 pages to reach to this conclusion?

And neither does playing an FPS, in any physical sense of the word. So your definition of player skill is still inane. We needed 13 pages to reach this conclusion?

[filetemo]

In Exile wrote...

filetemo wrote...

nor does playing an pnp rpg. We needed 13 pages to reach to this conclusion?

And neither does playing an FPS, in any physical sense of the word.

yes it does involve physical skill, yours or from the guy playing it for you.

how can you bring to the discussion "what if somebody plays for you?" argument? have you been serious about this?

[In Exile]

filetemo wrote...

yes it does involve physical skill, yours or from the guy playing it for you.

So does a cRPG if you're going to be that inane about it, since you need to move the mouse and hit keys on the keyboard. "Oh noes! You've got physical skill in my RPG!"

Basketball is a physical skill. Playing a video-game is a cognitive one, regardless of the genre.

how can you bring to the discussion "what if somebody plays for you?" argument? have you been serious about this?

I didn't. I just pointed out monopoly is a dice roll + thinking. It technically requires you to move the pieces, but that's not most of the game. I thought you were drawing an analogy to PnP, and pointed out it's all still cognitive.

[damage1900]

Apologies if this has already been mentioned.

I find it interesting that Dragon Age is the "spiritual successor" to Baldur's Gate, so there must have been a demand for a Baldur's Gate like game. Has the demand changed, and is the second Dragon Age a reflection of that change?

(I understand designers like to tread new paths, but sometimes reinventing the wheel is just reinventing the wheel)

cheers

[FedericoV]

damage1900 wrote...

Apologies if this has already been mentioned.

I find it interesting that Dragon Age is the "spiritual successor" to Baldur's Gate, so there must have been a demand for a Baldur's Gate like game. Has the demand changed, and is the second Dragon Age a reflection of that change?

(I understand designers like to tread new paths, but sometimes reinventing the wheel is just reinventing the wheel)

cheers

DA:O had a very long development cycle. If I remember well, the idea of a spiritual successor to BG was even the result of the demands of fans on the old boards. I remember something like 10 thread of many pages in the old forums titled "Petition for Baldur's Gate 3" or something like that. At the time there was a real answer for that kind of games and I think that a spiritual successor would have been a great success. In 10 years many things have changed and the old players that were so vocal at the time maybe do not play anymore. Imho, DA:O was a little bit late...

So, even if I loved the BG and IE games, my opinion is that DA:O's great success was despite its BGish gameplay and not because of it. Infact, it was a consolle success and not a PC one, even if developed mostly with the PC in mind. I suppose that Bioware have made his homework when they have decided to change the game formula in many ways, preserving what customers have liked most and reworking things that reviewers and customers alike (focus group and so on) weren't not too fond of.

The problem is that they have also builded (since the beginning of the development) an "hardcore" fanbase about DA:O's gameplay, a very vocal and passionate fanbase thet they do not want to disappoint (not for marketing reason, but because they really care, imho), so now they have some PR problems explaining the changes that are affecting the franchise (coupled with a very short dev cycle that implies many cuts here and there).

My opinion, off course.

Modifié par FedericoV, 14 août 2010 - 02:50 .

[Tirigon]

People like filetemo are the reason DA2 will be changed. Oldschool noobs need to be annoyed.

[filetemo]

In Exile wrote...

filetemo wrote...

yes it does involve physical skill, yours or from the guy playing it for you.

So does a cRPG if you're going to be that inane about it, since you need to move the mouse and hit keys on the keyboard. "Oh noes! You've got physical skill in my RPG!"

moving your hands normally is not a skill, being unable to move them is a problem

walking is not a skill, running 100 meters in 9.8 seconds is


An rpg allows me to "walk" till the end of the combat round", while FPS demands me to run in 9.8 seconds, if I can't, I'm dead.

"but somebody without legs can't even walk"

yes, but being able to walk is not a skill, not having legs is a problem, thus you can not say walking involves skil, because it's something any SANE person can do.

[AlanC9]

filetemo wrote...

moving your hands normally is not a skill, being unable to move them is a problem

walking is not a skill, running 100 meters in 9.8 seconds is


An rpg allows me to "walk" till the end of the combat round", while FPS demands me to run in 9.8 seconds, if I can't, I'm dead.

"but somebody without legs can't even walk"

yes, but being able to walk is not a skill, not having legs is a problem, thus you can not say walking involves skil, because it's something any SANE person can do.

So the definition of "skill" is something that only some non-disabled people can do? "Disabled" in this context meaning someone who can't do whatever we've decided "normal" people can do?

[filetemo]

AlanC9 wrote...

filetemo wrote...

moving your hands normally is not a skill, being unable to move them is a problem

walking is not a skill, running 100 meters in 9.8 seconds is


An rpg allows me to "walk" till the end of the combat round", while FPS demands me to run in 9.8 seconds, if I can't, I'm dead.

"but somebody without legs can't even walk"

yes, but being able to walk is not a skill, not having legs is a problem, thus you can not say walking involves skil, because it's something any SANE person can do.

So the definition of "skill" is something that only some non-disabled people can do? "Disabled" in this context meaning someone who can't do whatever we've decided "normal" people can do?

a skill is something that takes an effort and not everybody in their particular conditions can do without proper training or without possessing an unusual trait
do we have to define what a skill is now too? and what a disabled person is?or are those definitions "my particular opinions" too?

[faction699]

I've only ever played through DA and Mass Effect 2 on insanity, yet despite not minding the gameplay, the combat isn't even remotely the memorable part for me.  Honestly - no matter how dumbed down it is, I couldn't care less if the story and characters are engaging - and I believe that from the discussions on this forums, most people enjoy the storyline, lore and dialogue alot more than they do the combat.

Thems the breaks.  Now, the combat is still plenty tactical and i'm sure it will continue to be in DA2, so people who enjoy it the most will surely be appeased.  That's the good part of a bioware game; they don't skimp in either department.

[filetemo]

how can an oldschool be also a noob?

[Merced256]

faction699 wrote...

I've only ever played through DA and Mass Effect 2 on insanity, yet despite not minding the gameplay, the combat isn't even remotely the memorable part for me.  Honestly - no matter how dumbed down it is, I couldn't care less if the story and characters are engaging - and I believe that from the discussions on this forums, most people enjoy the storyline, lore and dialogue alot more than they do the combat.

Thems the breaks.  Now, the combat is still plenty tactical and i'm sure it will continue to be in DA2, so people who enjoy it the most will surely be appeased.  That's the good part of a bioware game; they don't skimp in either department.

They certainly do when it comes time to put in the things that make an RPG a real RPG however.

[shootist70]

Merced256 wrote...

They certainly do when it comes time to put in the things that make an RPG a real RPG however.

I'm not even sure what those 'things' are. The only thing that is relevant to 'roleplaying' is choice - becaue you're not creating your own role if you don't have choice  - you're simply playing out a predefined one. And the only choices that are really relevant are the ones you take to resolve the plot/conflict that the game represents. As far as I'm concerned game devs are free to represent that any way they like - wether it's choice of plot-path, character interaction or whatever. Doesn't matter. The more interpretations we see the better.

If by 'real RPG' folks mean holding onto cherished yet outdated and horribly artificial game mechanics like inventory/items/skill screens, then they're talking about 'only real rpg's' in the same way grandparents talk about stuff like Engelbert Humperdink as 'only real music'. They're just trying to hold onto personal preference and are veiling it with cherry picked arguments. Time to move on.

[Merced256]

Yea, character progression in the form of stats and new skills is incredibly archaic. Who would've ever thought that its a medium to introduce new tactics, varied gameplay and good ole fashioned fun. No, that entire system has never been used to good effect and therefore should be axed like it might as well have been in ME2. After all, everyone loves riding a cinematic roller coaster with the replayability resting solely on the illusion of choice.