1133 réponses à ce sujet

[Merced256]

I always chuckle when people talk about
ME2 pandering to the childish FPS crowd while it guts all of the "true
roleplaying" from its game system.  The ME2 changes reflect a lot of
changes in tabletop gaming.  I've been designing tabletop games for 26
years or so, and ME2 moved in exactly the direction I'm designing
currently.  It's interesting that some see this direction as dumbing
down, while a tabletop designer sees it as CRPG's breaking free of the
old and the arbitrary and furthering the evolution of the medium.

Really? So table top games are going in to interactive narratives where the DM is dictacting the whole thing and the 4 or so dudes with you are just like.. uhh yea i want dialog option 2? Man, that crowd really has changed hasn't it? So by your assertion table top gaming will evolve in to LARPing and RPG video games evolve in to movies.

For some reason i'm not exactly thrilled.

[DarkSpiral]

Sir JK wrote...

He's right though... it's not the actual roleplaying elements which vanished, but the classic DnD-based tactical combat elements. The actual roleplaying is still there and hasn't been touched.

Allocating stat points is as much roleplaying as buying a unit upgrade in a RTS and managing your inventory is about as much roleplaying as keeping check on your ammo in a shooter. Both have no impact on the story whatsoever beyong clearing the next combat encounter so the story can progress and you can get to the roleplaying bit (making a choice in the story and have it react to that).

classical rpg-games have been a combination of a roleplaying game (the interactive story) and a tactical combat game (using limited resources and strategically spent bonuses to defeat enemies). The mass effect games have preserved the former, but changed the latter into something more akin to a shooter.

Both are still roleplaying games since they are all about allowing you to interact with the story and direct which way it takes to the end.

Now, you might prefer the classical tactical combat game with it's allocated bonuses (stats and skill points) and it's resource management (the inventory) and that's fair. But to say that the removal of it means it's not a rpg ignores completely what rpg actually means.

But we have not been shown any indication that anything similar will be done in Dragon Age 2.

You're talking to a wall, JK.  Several of the loudest critics of the ME series who claim that Bioware stripped the RPG elements aren't actually talking about the role-playing in the game, they're specifically referring to the inventory managment and level progression.  Those mechanical elements are what define an RPG for them, not the act of role-playing itsefl.

[stormhit]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

It's Gears of War w/ dialogue. How is that a progression for the RPG genre? Many people say it's dumbed down because it is. It's obvious Bioware wants to appeal to the FPS (or TPS) crowd, and the only way to do that is by removing RPG stuff from the game and filling it to the brim with action generics.

If that's what you enjoy, more power to you. But ME2 is not an RPG, it is a more interactive Gears of War clone. People try to say the RPG is just 'buried benath the surface' and all this other nonsense, making excuses for Bioware and such. Criticism is something that is needed, and I think Bioware really screwed up by pandering to the people who either don't play RPG's or play something like Fable and consider themselves RPG gamers.

According to what you seem to be saying, NFL Head Coach is quite possibly one of the greatest RPGs out there.  After all, it has stat leveling and an expansive skill tree.

Modifié par stormhit13, 15 août 2010 - 09:57 .

[AlanC9]

I'm not quite sure I completely agree with this part, Sir JK:

Sir JK wrote...
classical rpg-games have been a combination of a roleplaying game (the interactive story) and a tactical combat game (using limited resources and strategically spent bonuses to defeat enemies). 

The really ancestral RPG games don't have any actual roleplaying in them in that sense. They're pure tactical exercises with maybe some exploration, but no real story. I'm thinking, say, of an early Wizardry or Might and Magic. RPG maybe wasn't the best name for the genre in the first place.

[AlanC9]

Hey, could someone explain what Gears of War actually plays like? I keep hearing the line "it's Gears of War with dialog," but I don't know what that really means.

[krisj451]

Dumbing down games like what happened from ME1 to ME2 is just another sad indication of The Pussification of America.

[Sylvius the Mad]

dbankier wrote...

Do you have a Core 2 Duo?

Like a great many PC users, yes I do.

Seriouly, they left a bug that big in the PC version?

If
so, that's also a bug. ME2 doesn't set the processor affinity correctly
- you can fix the loading times by alt-tabbing and then disabling and
re-enabling one of the cores in Task Manager, or you can use this program, which was written to do that automatically when you load the game.

I don't think I can
use MassAffinity and TexMod at the same time - I guess I'll have to do
it manually (which is stupid - holy crap ME2 is a lousy port)

Sir JK wrote...

He's right though... it's not the actual roleplaying elements which vanished, but the classic DnD-based tactical combat elements. The actual roleplaying is still there and hasn't been touched.

It wasn't touched between ME and ME2 because the roleplayuing wasn't there in ME in the first place.

ME's dialogue system makes it impossible to roleplay in any significant way.

[joey_mork84]

krisj451 wrote...

Dumbing down games like what happened from ME1 to ME2 is just another sad indication of The Pussification of America.

Nice George Carlin reference .. Too bad that quote is out of context to its original meaning..

Modifié par joey_mork84, 15 août 2010 - 11:34 .

[krisj451]

joey_mork84 wrote...


Nice George Carlin reference .. Too bad that quote is out of context to its original meaning..

George Carlin eh?  I've never heard him use the term.  I've been using it for years however, as I see things gradually sliding toward self-entitled "me-me-me now-now and not too difficult or I might cry" society.

Modifié par krisj451, 15 août 2010 - 11:38 .

[Riona45]

krisj451 wrote...

George Carlin eh?  I've never heard him use the term.  I've been using it for years however, as I see things gradually sliding toward self-entitled "me-me-me now-now and not too difficult or I might cry" society.

But we're talking about video games--luxury items.  It's not Serious Business in the first place.

[krisj451]

I'm a hardcore PC gamer from back when PCs first existed. Consoles these days are a big part of the problem IMO. "Gotta make things easier for the console kiddies." Blech.

Modifié par krisj451, 15 août 2010 - 11:43 .

[joey_mork84]

krisj451 wrote...

I'm a hardcore PC gamer from back when PCs first existed. Consoles these days are a big part of the problem IMO. "Gotta make things easier for the console kiddies." Blech.

I couldn't agree more with this.. As for the George Carlin quote, its on his "You are all diseased" cd from back in the 90's. Something about Harley Davidson theme resturants. That bits off topic, but just thought I'd tell you in case you were curious

Modifié par joey_mork84, 15 août 2010 - 11:49 .

[Riona45]

krisj451 wrote...

I'm a hardcore PC gamer from back when PCs first existed. Consoles these days are a big part of the problem IMO. "Gotta make things easier for the console kiddies." Blech.

But my point was whatever one thinks of that, these are just games.  Declaring them a part of the downfall of civilization seems rather over-the-top (at least, that's how your post came across to me).

[Bryy_Miller]

krisj451 wrote...

Dumbing down games like what happened from ME1 to ME2 is just another sad indication of The Pussification of America.

Oh, you're the bastion of intelligence, having quoted George Carlin! You must have loads of wisdom! 

But like Rio said, they are just video games. Luxury items. While it's a sad tale, it's a fact of life, and one you have absolutely no control over. Do you know how self-entitled you must seem to your parents?

[damage1900]

Tantum Dic Verbo wrote...
...I've been designing tabletop games for 26 years or so...

I'm interested to know what games you have designed or have been a part of which have gone to market, and additionally obtained some level of sales success.

(I always find people that quote length of time in a particular sector in terms of knowledge as opposed to quoting successes during that time as being rather redundant. True, it is generally the case being in the same field indicates some level of competence, but then again I have been coding for many years in my 9 to 5, but I don't think I'm a particularly good coder).

cheers

[joey_mork84]

damage1900 wrote...

Tantum Dic Verbo wrote...
...I've been designing tabletop games for 26 years or so...

I'm interested to know what games you have designed or have been a part of which have gone to market

I would like to know this as well, but not for the same reasons. I just want to know if I have played them already or if I can find a copy to play. Been looking for a new game to try for a while.

[Saibh]

krisj451 wrote...

Dumbing down games like what happened from ME1 to ME2 is just another sad indication of The Pussification of America.

...They were made in Canada (I know, George Carlin, but still).

Modifié par Saibh, 16 août 2010 - 01:00 .

[Bryy_Miller]

Jeedepee wrote...

krisj451 wrote...

Dumbing down games like what happened from ME1 to ME2 is just another sad indication of The Pussification of America.

And here I was thinking grown men getting upset over video games was just another sad indication of The Pussification of America.

+1 Zing.

[Kalfear]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Jeedepee wrote...

krisj451 wrote...

Dumbing down games like what happened from ME1 to ME2 is just another sad indication of The Pussification of America.

And here I was thinking grown men getting upset over video games was just another sad indication of The Pussification of America.

+1 Zing.

Dont worry Bryy, no one thought of you when the words GROWN MEN were mentioned!

[Bryy_Miller]

Kalfear wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Jeedepee wrote...

krisj451 wrote...

Dumbing down games like what happened from ME1 to ME2 is just another sad indication of The Pussification of America.

And here I was thinking grown men getting upset over video games was just another sad indication of The Pussification of America.

+1 Zing.

Dont worry Bryy, no one thought of you when the words GROWN MEN were mentioned!

Modifié par Bryy_Miller, 16 août 2010 - 02:57 .

[AmstradHero]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...
(ME2 is) Gears of War w/ dialogue. How is that a progression for the RPG genre? Many people say it's dumbed down because it is. It's obvious Bioware wants to appeal to the FPS (or TPS) crowd, and the only way to do that is by removing RPG stuff from the game and filling it to the brim with action generics.

If that's what you enjoy, more power to you. But ME2 is not an RPG, it is a more interactive Gears of War clone. People try to say the RPG is just 'buried benath the surface' and all this other nonsense, making excuses for Bioware and such. Criticism is something that is needed, and I think Bioware really screwed up by pandering to the people who either don't play RPG's or play something like Fable and consider themselves RPG gamers.

So tell me in Gears of War, where are the following?

• A variety of classes to select
• A levelling system
• A variety of skills to choose
• Decisions that can affect the outcome of the game
• Decisions that can affect the lives of other characters

That's right, they're not there. This Gears of War argument is an utter fallacy.

ME2 is a Third Person Shooter. That means it doesn't have the same number crunching as things like the old gold box games or anything else equally rooted in number based combat mechanics. Dealing damage to enemies is based on the players skill, but augmented by the skills they choose to level up during the game. This means that experience does have an effect of your character's ability in combat, even though it's not (necessarily) the primary factor dictating its effectiveness.

This does not mean the ME2 is not an RPG. Nor does the lack of an inventory in ME2 mean that the game is not an RPG. Most of the people complaining about the direction of ME2 and DA2 are complaining "that the game should be about the story", when ultimately the things that are being most heavily complained about have nothing to do with the story.

Since people love talking about Baldur's Gate, let's go back to the first one. What choices did you have in the game? Really? You always kill Mulahey, Ender Sai, Davaeorn and Sarevok... ultimately you have very little say on how events play out except for minor side quests that never amount to much. How is Baldur's Gate more meaningful and more of an RPG than a game where your events can directly result in the death of not just random NPCs, but your allies or party members?

If people are complaining that BioWare's recent offerings are nothing more than choose-your-own-adventure stories wrapped in a game, what does that make the "classic" RPGs you are so staunchly advocating? If we're drawing the same book analogy... they're simply a novel wrapped in a game, because you can never have any real effect on how the story plays out.

[DarkSpiral]

AmstradHero wrote...

• Since people love talking about Baldur's Gate, let's go back to the first one. What choices did you have in the game? Really? You always kill Mulahey, Ender Sai, Davaeorn and Sarevok... ultimately you have very little say on how events play out except for minor side quests that never amount to much. How is Baldur's Gate more meaningful and more of an RPG than a game where your events can directly result in the death of not just random NPCs, but your allies or party members?
  
  If people are complaining that BioWare's recent offerings are nothing more than choose-your-own-adventure stories wrapped in a game, what does that make the "classic" RPGs you are so staunchly advocating? If we're drawing the same book analogy... they're simply a novel wrapped in a game, because you can never have any real effect on how the story plays out.
  

A good question and comparison, but as I mentioned above, most of the complaints I've read are in reagrd to the mechanics and not the storyline, or you ability to alter events.

Although, to be honest, once you picked your class you didn't really have much choice in how you'd evolve over time in the BG series either.  You could pick the gear you'd use, of course.  But that didn't really change the experience of the game much, it simply mad eyou better at your class than you were before swapping gear.  You could muti dual-class a human character after they'd prgressed as one class, but that really the only input you had.  I suppose you might count the spell choices for casters.