1133 réponses à ce sujet

[condiments1]

How in the world did we start arguing over comic superhero consistency? This hardly applies to game genre classification....

[TSamee]

Mr. Woo, thanks for that. Really, you've hit on two really, really important things: BioWare can take any direction they want with the character provided it'll sell; the only way we can influence creative direction is to not buy the game (in masses). Flaming, trolling, blah de blah, won't do a thing.

Second, why is a voiced protagonist such a bad thing? Why are we judging the entire world of the sequel (which we haven't seen before) based on scraps of information on one or two characters? Not my place to nod sagely and say "yes, good point" to you guys, but damn straight

[Bryy_Miller]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...
Stanley, I think you need to put a spoiler tag on that post.

I'm pretty sure everything I mentioned is past the "statue of limitations" on spoilers by now.

It must be so hard for you guys NOT to write paragraph long replies each time you visit the forums.

[TSamee]

Seth Burns wrote...

TSamee wrote...

Mass Effect 2 is, frankly, the perfect example of over-simplifying core mechanics. I'm not talking about the shooting. I loved that. I just feel that there's way too much emphasis on it. It's still very much a "role-playing game", but it doesn't feel like the first Mass Effect that drew us into the series

Missions, every single one, inevitable boil down to "the **** just hit the fan, go shoot people", occasionally punctuated by mini-games (like the logic puzzle with Liara on Illium). There's nothing with the depth of say, the Landsmeet in terms of its dialogue options, there's no mission that relies on dialogue, or any other skill besides shooting people.
Inventory management was scrapped, not to "streamline" a problem which people complained about, but to appeal to a completely different type of gamer.
And those are just two examples. All I'm saying is that I have no problem with streamlining... but when you do it to the point when you alienate your previous core audience you're going too far.

Do you remember ME1? I'm pretty sure quests are just about identical in comparison to ME2. Most of the ME1 quests walk you into the same looking ship, mine, or other interior space, and kill anything that moves and usually find out what they were doing or get a quick grab of something. ME2 actually broadened this experience, each place you explore is actually new and different, and the story and reasoning is much more sumptuous.

Sure there were more dialogue options in ME1 sidequests, but go take a walk through Illium or the Citadel, and you'll get a TON of dialogue sidequests. I'm just simply stating, if you were to compare sidequests, ME2 has a richer experience than ME1's.

Looks like I've got the cursed rose-tinted goggles on. Sorry about that then, most of my criticism is consequently mindless and unobjective. Thanks for bringing me back to earth mate

[Bryy_Miller]

condiments1 wrote...

How in the world did we start arguing over comic superhero consistency? This hardly applies to game genre classification....

Actually, the analogy worked quite well. We don't own Batman, the people that own Batman do.

Unless you really want to start in with the "snarky reply to developers" business.

[Stanley Woo]

Ensgnblack wrote...

I just caught up to reading the whole thread, and Stanely, I agree with everything you said there. COnsumers are not the ones creating the game. Let the designers design and purchase it if you endorse their product.

True. And let me reiterate that there's nothing wrong with loving a product, character, or setting so much that you don't want it to change, or so much that it becomes a part of you. Nothing wrong with that, despite my aversion to some of the fanfic and fan art out there. but stamping one's feet and saying "no, it can't change" and holding one's breath as if to stop creators from doing  their job is a little nonsensical.

Where would some of our most beloved characters and settings be without some kind of change or addition? i already used Batman as an example. Look at how much more popular the Lord of the Rings became after the movies came out. And the movies changed things, and purists were outraged! didn't stop the movies from being good and enjoyable and spawning many different board game products and RPGs and action figures and things.

i may be biased, but I don't think Dragon Age 2 is going to be the "death of all RPGs" or "killing of my favourite puppy" that some folks fear it will be. It certainly won't be quite the same as DAO, but we think it'll have more than enough "Dragon Age-ness" in it to keep folks satisfied. And even if you don't agree, that's just us having a difference of opinion rather than us deliberately ruining your favourite game and your favourite genre and the industry as a whole for no reason other than money money money money money bwahahahaha. it's a big difference.

[Stanley Woo]

Bryy_Miller wrote...
It must be so hard for you guys NOT to write paragraph long replies each time you visit the forums.

Oy, you don't know the half of it! Lol!

[filetemo]

condiments1 wrote...

How in the world did we start arguing over comic superhero consistency? This hardly applies to game genre classification....

this, besides the fact comics have no gameplay , the long post about batman from stan woo, comes to tell me my feedback accomplishes nothing while bioware states feedback is important, but since in the end what they use is gameplay data from the people who plays the game, there's a contradiction here.

The point is they try to cover their changes made to appeal wider audiences with a panoply of byzantine arguments about redefining the rpg genre, pushing forward the mechanics and making it easier for newcomers, while still telling us they make rpgs. And that is a lie that must be remarked.
Bioware members never posted in the forums using this behavior years ago, when they had not "10 million unit sales" in mind.

And I don't know how good are Batman comic sales nowadays.

[Bryy_Miller]

filetemo wrote...

condiments1 wrote...

How in the world did we start arguing over comic superhero consistency? This hardly applies to game genre classification....

this, besides the fact comics have no gameplay , the long post about batman from stan woo, comes to tell me my feedback accomplishes nothing while bioware states feedback is important

Did you even read what Woo wrote? Because he did not say that at all. At most, he (heavily) implied that complaining does nothing.

Complaining =/= constructive criticism.

[condiments1]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

condiments1 wrote...

How in the world did we start arguing over comic superhero consistency? This hardly applies to game genre classification....

Actually, the analogy worked quite well. We don't own Batman, the people that own Batman do.

Unless you really want to start in with the "snarky reply to developers" business.

As far as I discerned the OP intially stated Bioware wants to make adventure games. Bioware has their own right to make their own products how they see fit, and I don't dispute it. I just won't buy it if it doesn't appeal to me.

However, no developer has the ability to warp a genre definition to fit to their changing priorities. Screaming at the top of their lungs that "things have changed" doesn't change at the core what RPGs have been for decades. They can make different games, but they won't be RPGs.

[Archdemon Cthulhu]

filetemo wrote...

condiments1 wrote...

How in the world did we start arguing over comic superhero consistency? This hardly applies to game genre classification....

this, besides the fact comics have no gameplay , the long post about batman from stan woo, comes to tell me my feedback accomplishes nothing while bioware states feedback is important, but since in the end what they use is gameplay data from the people who plays the game, there's a contradiction here.

The point is they try to cover their changes made to appeal wider audiences with a panoply of byzantine arguments about redefining the rpg genre, pushing forward the mechanics and making it easier for newcomers, while still telling us they make rpgs. And that is a lie that must be remarked.
Bioware members never posted in the forums using this behavior years ago, when they had not "10 million unit sales" in mind.

And I don't know how good are Batman comic sales nowadays.

Because you claimed that creators can't move away from tradition, counter-examples were given.  Not to mention, you opened up the conversation track about fans "owning" a character, which is silly concept at best.

Modifié par Archdemon Cthulhu, 12 août 2010 - 02:33 .

[Bryy_Miller]

condiments1 wrote...
 Screaming at the top of their lungs that "things have changed" doesn't change at the core what RPGs have been for decades. They can make different games, but they won't be RPGs.

This is a subjective concept. 

[slikster]

filetemo, your OP rings true. Most telling is that absolutely none of your points have been refuted.

[condiments1]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

condiments1 wrote...
 Screaming at the top of their lungs that "things have changed" doesn't change at the core what RPGs have been for decades. They can make different games, but they won't be RPGs.

This is a subjective concept. 

Hey guyz I'm playing Starcraft 2 and I sided with the PROTOSS over those lame colonists and someone is angry that I did! Choice and consquences! I'm gonna spend credits to upgrade my units. Dis is da best RPG evar!

[Bryy_Miller]

slikster wrote...

filetemo, your OP rings true. Most telling is that absolutely none of your points have been refuted.

That's because he didn't make any. He just gesticulated wildly, and then said "no, u" when an actual developer at BioWare explained to him why he was being silly.

Okay.
My mind is broken.

I'm out.

[TSamee]

Go on Mr. Woo. Say it.

[SirOccam]

slikster wrote...

filetemo, your OP rings true. Most telling is that absolutely none of your points have been refuted.

Except that they all have.

Modifié par SirOccam, 12 août 2010 - 02:37 .

[Ulicus]

I can see it now:

MASS EFFECT 4: CRISIS OF INFINITE SHEPARDS

[rexil]

Cynical Being wrote...

Hah. After reading Stanley's post all I could think was, "Conversation over." This thread may now come to a close.

He just forgot the "End of the Line".:happy:

[filetemo]

people who voices loudly their discomfort are the ones that make designers rethink their steps, as much as they say it doesn't. A bunch of yes-sir people would eat any crap presented at them, because they do not care or do not know what they like.Thanks to this people we have Madden games and NBA games every year. If you do not care about dragon age being bastardized, go ahead. I'll stay here till they ban me because their character is as theirs than mine for me and because I'll point at them at whatever lie I think they say.



Specially pathetic are the forum posters who cheered the post of Woo like their elder brother came to save them from a bully.Argue for yourselves.

[hexaligned]

filetemo wrote...

people who voices loudly their discomfort are the ones that make designers rethink their steps, as much as they say it doesn't. A bunch of yes-sir people would eat any crap presented at them, because they do not care or do not know what they like.Thanks to this people we have Madden games and NBA games every year. If you do not care about dragon age being bastardized, go ahead. I'll stay here till they ban me because their character is as theirs than mine for me and because I'll point at them at whatever lie I think they say.

Specially pathetic are the forum posters who cheered the post of Woo like their elder brother came to save them from a bully.Argue for yourselves.

You've obviously never created anything in your life.  Try writing a novel and then tell me how hard you start laughing at the random forum nobody that shows up and tries telling you what you can and can't do with the sequel.

[Archdemon Cthulhu]

filetemo wrote...

people who voices loudly their discomfort are the ones that make designers rethink their steps, as much as they say it doesn't. A bunch of yes-sir people would eat any crap presented at them, because they do not care or do not know what they like.Thanks to this people we have Madden games and NBA games every year. If you do not care about dragon age being bastardized, go ahead. I'll stay here till they ban me because their character is as theirs than mine for me and because I'll point at them at whatever lie I think they say.

Specially pathetic are the forum posters who cheered the post of Woo like their elder brother came to save them from a bully.Argue for yourselves.

Here's your mistake.  Arguing the way you do fails because it exposes you as an extremist.  No one will listen to extremists who spew hate and ad hominems and meaningless absolutes, because they aren't representative of the larger fanbase.  

If you had tried to be constructive, and say, expressed concern and used some points of actual substance to point out why you have those concerns.  Then, yes, that helps.  This is not what you did.

[Jonathan Seagull]

filetemo wrote...

condiments1 wrote...

How in the world did we start arguing over comic superhero consistency? This hardly applies to game genre classification....

this, besides the fact comics have no gameplay , the long post about batman from stan woo, comes to tell me my feedback accomplishes nothing while bioware states feedback is important, but since in the end what they use is gameplay data from the people who plays the game, there's a contradiction here.

There's a difference between "we genuinely take feedback into account" and "we bend our will to the whims of every poster who throws a fit."

filetemo wrote...
while still telling us they make rpgs. And that is a lie that must be remarked.

I'd say Dragon Age:  Origins is proof enough that Bioware still makes RPGs.  Even if you don't consider ME2 an RPG, you make it sound as though it's been years since Bioware released an RPG. 

[GithCheater]

Maybe there is a similar creative parallel between the music record industry and the video game industry?
Hopefully, Bioware won't pull a "Queen"
In the early 1980's, the rock band Queen lost North America. After their #1 smash, "Another One Bites the Dust", Queen made a number of debatable creative choices:
Queen created a cheesy Flash Gordon soundtrack of mostly movie dialogue, and labeled it a Queen album.
Queen forsook their rock roots (maybe like Bioware forsaking its Baldur's Gate roots?), and released a primarily disco album in 1982 after disco had died a few years ealier.
In 1984, Queen made a music video based on a British soap opera in which they further forsook their "rock roots" by appearing in "drag" with Freddie Mercury pushing a vacuum cleaner while clad in a tight short skirt.
Despite such blasphous sins, I am still a fanboi of Queen, and I suppose I will still be a Bioware fanboi if the dire predictions of the OP of this thread come to pass.

Modifié par GithCheater, 12 août 2010 - 02:53 .