1133 réponses à ce sujet

[Saibh]

Miobako wrote...

javierabegazo wrote...

I'm very tempted to lock this, as Woo generally holds great disdain for "What is or is not an RPG" threads, which generally steer away from any one game, but rather ends up in bashing people's preferences, and stinking of entitlement and elitism.

I'll give this thread a day to get back on decent, civil discussion.

I think you already used the LOCKDOWN spell already in the other thread, you should get some rest to memorize it again. Since Bioware label itself as an RPG maker, we have the right to discuss about if the gamesthey make are RPG's or not. Woo can tell his opinion too.

I think you missed this part in javier's reasoning:

"...generally steer away from any one game, but rather ends up in bashing people's preferences, and stinking of entitlement and elitism."

There is a lot of that going on in this thread. You should be happy we're getting a day to discuss DA2, not how much y'all hate console players.

Modifié par Saibh, 20 août 2010 - 01:29 .

[Inzhuna]

Why did I start reading this thread? It completely changed my mood from being happy about the dominant personality voiceover to gloomy about how ridicilous some ****** sapiens can be. Seriously, this thread so needs a lockdown.

[Miobako]

Saibh wrote...

Miobako wrote...

javierabegazo wrote...

I'm very tempted to lock this, as Woo generally holds great disdain for "What is or is not an RPG" threads, which generally steer away from any one game, but rather ends up in bashing people's preferences, and stinking of entitlement and elitism.

I'll give this thread a day to get back on decent, civil discussion.

I think you already used the LOCKDOWN spell already in the other thread, you should get some rest to memorize it again. Since Bioware label itself as an RPG maker, we have the right to discuss about if the gamesthey make are RPG's or not. Woo can tell his opinion too.

I think you missed this part in javier's reasoning:

"...generally steer away from any one game, but rather ends up in bashing people's preferences, and stinking of entitlement and elitism."

There is a lot of that going on in this thread. You should be happy we're getting a day to discuss DA2, not how much y'all hate console players.

Without the intention to bash anyone, but I think it's the other way around. Whenever someone express some concern about the way things are going, a bunch of Bioware's fanboys/fangirls pop out of nowhere defending their opinion. As you see from the title of this thread, this is a thread for those that want to complain about things. If you like all Bioware's doing with their games, make your own thread "I like what Bioware seems to want". I for one won't post there, I post only in threads where people can understand me.

[The Masked Rog]

Miobako wrote...

Saibh wrote...

Miobako wrote...

javierabegazo wrote...

I'm very tempted to lock this, as Woo generally holds great disdain for "What is or is not an RPG" threads, which generally steer away from any one game, but rather ends up in bashing people's preferences, and stinking of entitlement and elitism.

I'll give this thread a day to get back on decent, civil discussion.

I think you already used the LOCKDOWN spell already in the other thread, you should get some rest to memorize it again. Since Bioware label itself as an RPG maker, we have the right to discuss about if the gamesthey make are RPG's or not. Woo can tell his opinion too.

I think you missed this part in javier's reasoning:

"...generally steer away from any one game, but rather ends up in bashing people's preferences, and stinking of entitlement and elitism."

There is a lot of that going on in this thread. You should be happy we're getting a day to discuss DA2, not how much y'all hate console players.

Without the intention to bash anyone, but I think it's the other way around. Whenever someone express some concern about the way things are going, a bunch of Bioware's fanboys/fangirls pop out of nowhere defending their opinion. As you see from the title of this thread, this is a thread for those that want to complain about things. If you like all Bioware's doing with their games, make your own thread "I like what Bioware seems to want". I for one won't post there, I post only in threads where people can understand me.

BUt then this wouldn't be a forum, rather a petitions site, wouldn't it. Or facebook: Someone writes "I like dragon age" and anybody who wants presses like.

Back on topic: A great man once said, "forget the genre, forget preconception, make a great game!" That's how I feel. I like RPGs, I trust BioWare will make a good game. I could care less if I select my race or not, even genre be damned, I don't mind playing as a female. Mechanics don't matter to me, I want a great game with a great story, great cinematics, lots of choices and a solid and fun combat system. If they deliver on this, I can care less about the camera, the inventory, etc...

[Saibh]

Miobako wrote...

Saibh wrote...

Miobako wrote...

javierabegazo wrote...

I'm very tempted to lock this, as Woo generally holds great disdain for "What is or is not an RPG" threads, which generally steer away from any one game, but rather ends up in bashing people's preferences, and stinking of entitlement and elitism.

I'll give this thread a day to get back on decent, civil discussion.

I think you already used the LOCKDOWN spell already in the other thread, you should get some rest to memorize it again. Since Bioware label itself as an RPG maker, we have the right to discuss about if the gamesthey make are RPG's or not. Woo can tell his opinion too.

I think you missed this part in javier's reasoning:

"...generally steer away from any one game, but rather ends up in bashing people's preferences, and stinking of entitlement and elitism."

There is a lot of that going on in this thread. You should be happy we're getting a day to discuss DA2, not how much y'all hate console players.

Without the intention to bash anyone, but I think it's the other way around. Whenever someone express some concern about the way things are going, a bunch of Bioware's fanboys/fangirls pop out of nowhere defending their opinion. As you see from the title of this thread, this is a thread for those that want to complain about things. If you like all Bioware's doing with their games, make your own thread "I like what Bioware seems to want". I for one won't post there, I post only in threads where people can understand me.

There's that, of course. I know that happens--but still, this is a fan board, you have to expect that. Couple that with the fact many people doomcast like crazy, without a shred of real proof, and blow things way overboard, and sing odes to melodrama, and it's hard not to come onto these kinds of threads and defend the company on whose board you are posting.

Honestly, are we even allowed to have "complaining" threads, as opposed to "concern" threads?

Of course, being on the "fangirl" side of things, it seems to me that dissenters like to run onto perfectly optimistic threads and talk about the doom of the company...

Anyway, it's all moot to the original point being made, and that's about keeping the topic on DA2, and not hating on various genres, games, and consoles.

Modifié par Saibh, 20 août 2010 - 02:03 .

[EvilChani]

Stanley Woo wrote...

I'm being a little sarcastic because I think it's an important lesson to learn. As much as we love the characters and stories and worlds that affect us, we all are really only passive consumers of those characters, stories, and worlds. we would love for them to remain the way we love them, unchanging. But time and product move on. I don't like all Batman stories, I don't like all Batman actors, and I certainly don't like all the Batman films. but I love the character, and when a good writer writes (or a good artist draws) a good Batman story, I'll pick it up and I'll enjoy it for what it is. I will also enjoy it for how it expands my view of the character or world. If 1940's the Bat-Man is all you ever want to know or have of the character, that's fine. You can do that, and no one should judge you for that. but you'll be missing Dark Knight Batman, Knightfall Batman, killing Joke Batman, No Man's Land Batman, JLA Batman, OMAC Batman, as well as missing out on Tim Drake Robin, Spoiler, Year One Batman, the movies, and the animated series.

Yes, you may not like the directions taken by certain creators, but wouldn't it be better to go along for the ride to see what will happen in this world, or to these characters rather than lock everything into a single, restrictive paradigm? I dunno, it seems weird to me that people would rather hold onto one unchanging view than to explore views that one might never have thought of: Knightfall Batman, Spider-Man revealing his identity to Aunt May, Wash's demise in Serenity, Angel in charge of Wolfram & Hart, etc. We love characters and stories because of how they're portrayed and written and acted and drawn, whatever. Why, then, are we so against having those same characters do something in addition to something we already know and love and enjoy?

Because what we already know and love and enjoy can quickly become something we loathe. Personally, I hated Wash's demise, and while I thoroughly enjoyed Angel running Wolfram and Hart (and Spike's arrival in the last season), there are a great many examples of "change" gone wrong. Do I even need to mention Oliver on The Brady Bunch? Or Leonardo di Crappyo Seaver on Growing Pains? The Great Gazoo on the Flintstones? Or, God help me, the revisionist history in Star Wars that made Greedo shoot first? Highlander 2? God Emperor of Dune and the books that followed? Perhaps that other kid they brought on The Cosby Show because Rudy went from cute and adorable to..not? That time on Happy Days when Fonzie jumped the... Well, you know how that went.

The point is that, while some change is good, we are all too aware that the creators of certain shows, games, and various other forms of entertainment are all too capable of taking something that is wonderful and turning it into a complete and utter pile of steaming crap. So when we hear that everything we love about a game is changing, it is irksome. I can't say how much I resented spending 80 hours of my life playing a game and accomplishing my mission only to have a roof fall in on my freaking head just as it was over. Thanks NWN2!

I doled out the bucks for ME2, despite knowing it was no longer an RPG and had become little more than a glorified shooter. I loved DA:O and, really, it made up for the fact that you ruined ME (the only reason I played more than once was because of Thane, who will be worm food for ME3, so I see no need to buy that). But learning that you guys are turning the next DA into another ME2 - a glorified shooter (with swords and magic), where you're cornered into one character and the dialog is chopped down so far that it becomes pointless - is extremely irritating to some fans. I'm not buying it when it comes out. I may rent it, and if it's what I expect, I won't be buying it at all.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go play DA for a bit, then probably Fallout 3. I'm kinda feeling the need for a real RPG.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Inzhuna wrote...

dominant personality voiceover

Dominant personality voiceover?  What?

Have we learned something about the nature of the voiceover?

[Krytheos]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Inzhuna wrote...

dominant personality voiceover

Dominant personality voiceover?  What?

Have we learned something about the nature of the voiceover?

Essentially, yes. I believe that they mean is the 'dominant personality' thing David discussed in a previous thread in a good amount of detail.

[SDNcN]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Inzhuna wrote...

dominant personality voiceover

Dominant personality voiceover?  What?

Have we learned something about the nature of the voiceover?

http://social.biowar...index/4498054/1

David Gaider gave some really detailed information about it.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Just found it.

Yes, that has potential. Of course, I'm sure I'd rather they just let us choose from among all the possible deliveries each time and let us worry about whether our character's personality makes sense. Alas, once again the game will try to protect us from ourselves.

[Vaeliorin]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Just found it.
Yes, that has potential. Of course, I'm sure I'd rather they just let us choose from among all the possible deliveries each time and let us worry about whether our character's personality makes sense. Alas, once again the game will try to protect us from ourselves.

To be far, David explained that it was largely due to the number of possibilities.  If you've got 3 choices, and want to have 3 different tones for each, you end up with more choices than the game can reasonably accomodate.  I think it's an interesting concept, but I'll have to see it in practice before I can definitively say one way or the other what I think of it.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Vaeliorin wrote...

To be far, David explained that it was largely due to the number of possibilities.  If you've got 3 choices, and want to have 3 different tones for each, you end up with more choices than the game can reasonably accomodate.  I think it's an interesting concept, but I'll have to see it in practice before I can definitively say one way or the other what I think of it.

Yes, but only because of that damn wheel.

A list has no limit.  That's why they like it so much for inventories (and it's still horrible for inventories, but it's great for dialogue options).  Why does it have to be a wheel?

If there are 13 different options at this conversation node, show us all 13, and let us choose among them.

[Vaeliorin]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Vaeliorin wrote...
To be far, David explained that it was largely due to the number of possibilities.  If you've got 3 choices, and want to have 3 different tones for each, you end up with more choices than the game can reasonably accomodate.  I think it's an interesting concept, but I'll have to see it in practice before I can definitively say one way or the other what I think of it.

Yes, but only because of that damn wheel.

A list has no limit.  That's why they like it so much for inventories (and it's still horrible for inventories, but it's great for dialogue options).  Why does it have to be a wheel?

If there are 13 different options at this conversation node, show us all 13, and let us choose among them.

It's not just the wheel, though.  From what I've read, even DA didn't support more than 6 options for dialogue.  Don't get me wrong, I personally wouldn't mind having 13 different options listed, but I think that it would work well interface-wise, and most people would probably hate it/find it confusing (if they even saw all the options, assuming you have to scroll through a list to see all of them.)

Personally, I'd happily go back to the old single word conversation system, but I realize that I'm never going to see anything like that again in anything other than an indie game (I'd say a niche game, but every studio I used to like that made niche games seems to have gone out of business.)

[Sylvius the Mad]

KotOR had up to 8 dialogue options. And what's wrong with scrolling?

Really, why build a hard limit into the dialogue engine at all? That said, I manage databases for a living, so I don't think any solution is a good solution unless it is infinitely scalable.

[Vaeliorin]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
KotOR had up to 8 dialogue options. And what's wrong with scrolling?

In my eyes, nothing.  In the eyes of the gaming public (or at least the gaming talking heads who make the decisions) it's apparently confusing.  Anything that's not immediately visible on screen is likely to be ignored as it's "too much work."  Apparently the people who complain about games having "too much talking" are the target demographic for just about any game nowadays.

Really, why build a hard limit into the dialogue engine at all? That said, I manage databases for a living, so I don't think any solution is a good solution unless it is infinitely scalable.

*shrug*  I don't know why they do it.  I just know that I've read posts from David that I felt implied that the DA engine wouldn't support more than 6 dialogue options.

The only reason I could see them limiting it is because you've only got 10 number keys, and the dialogue options are tied to the number keys in most list systems (though I don't know how many people actually use the number keys to select dialogue options.)

[Sylvius the Mad]

Vaeliorin wrote...

The only reason I could see them limiting it is because you've only got 10 number keys, and the dialogue options are tied to the number keys in most list systems (though I don't know how many people actually use the number keys to select dialogue options.)

Okay, granted.  I often use the number keys to select dialogue options (I usually take my hand off the mouse to rest it during conversations, which is one of the reasons I disliked hated the implementation of ME2's interrupt system).

But since the rest of the UI and commands aren't available during conversations, there's no need to limit these to numerals.  They could number them in hex or something.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 20 août 2010 - 03:33 .

[Vandrayke]

People please stop saying that it's "confusing" because somehow we are stupid if we don't care to have 10 dialog options that are only superficially different. It's a matter of preference. I don't see anything wrong with 10 dialog options, but I don't see much value in them if 5 of them give the same response from the NPC anyways. So if I only get 3 different responses from the game to my input, only giving me 3 different inputs instead of 7 won't make me lose any sleep at all.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Vandrayke wrote...

 I don't see anything wrong with 10 dialog options, but I don't see much value in them if 5 of them give the same response from the NPC anyways.

I don't care if any of them produce different NPC responses.  Roleplaying isn't about how the NPC's behave.  Roleplaying is about how the PC behaves.

[Vandrayke]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Vandrayke wrote...

 I don't see anything wrong with 10 dialog options, but I don't see much value in them if 5 of them give the same response from the NPC anyways.

I don't care if any of them produce different NPC responses.  Roleplaying isn't about how the NPC's behave.  Roleplaying is about how the PC behaves.

If I don't feel my decisions affect the game world, I lose interest in making those decisions.  I'm interested in whatever can suck me in and make me think that my character is having the impact I want them to have within the context of the world.  Frankly, if what the NPCs did wasn't important, I don't see the point of playing the game to begin with, because then I could just imagine everything myself and write a story or something and not have to deal with someone else's rules at all.  

[TheMadCat]

Vandrayke wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Vandrayke wrote...

 I don't see anything wrong with 10 dialog options, but I don't see much value in them if 5 of them give the same response from the NPC anyways.

I don't care if any of them produce different NPC responses.  Roleplaying isn't about how the NPC's behave.  Roleplaying is about how the PC behaves.

If I don't feel my decisions affect the game world, I lose interest in making those decisions.  I'm interested in whatever can suck me in and make me think that my character is having the impact I want them to have within the context of the world.  Frankly, if what the NPCs did wasn't important, I don't see the point of playing the game to begin with, because then I could just imagine everything myself and write a story or something and not have to deal with someone else's rules at all. 

Following that line of thought you should have pretty much have zero interest in BioWare games seeing as only a select few decisions actually effect the game world.

Modifié par TheMadCat, 20 août 2010 - 04:00 .

[Vandrayke]

TheMadCat wrote...

Vandrayke wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Vandrayke wrote...

 I don't see anything wrong with 10 dialog options, but I don't see much value in them if 5 of them give the same response from the NPC anyways.

I don't care if any of them produce different NPC responses.  Roleplaying isn't about how the NPC's behave.  Roleplaying is about how the PC behaves.

If I don't feel my decisions affect the game world, I lose interest in making those decisions.  I'm interested in whatever can suck me in and make me think that my character is having the impact I want them to have within the context of the world.  Frankly, if what the NPCs did wasn't important, I don't see the point of playing the game to begin with, because then I could just imagine everything myself and write a story or something and not have to deal with someone else's rules at all. 

Following that line of thought you should have pretty much have zero interest in BioWare games seeing as only a select few decisions actually effect the game world.

The key being MAKE ME THINK.  The illusion works.  Just like if I took a placebo pill and my headache went away, I wouldn't care that it wasn't actually aspirin.  

[Vandrayke]

In an ideal world, I'd of course prefer having a dozen voiced over lines to choose from. But if I had to choose between 10 typed options and 3 fully voiced ones, I'd choose the 3 because they'd feel more tangible to me and I'd probably enjoy the game more.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Vandrayke wrote...

If I don't feel my decisions affect the game world, I lose interest in making those decisions.  I'm interested in whatever can suck me in and make me think that my character is having the impact I want them to have within the context of the world.  Frankly, if what the NPCs did wasn't important, I don't see the point of playing the game to begin with, because then I could just imagine everything myself and write a story or something and not have to deal with someone else's rules at all.  

But can you tell if your decisions don't affect the world?  Or do you have to metagame to do that?

Don't metagame and that problem goes away.  Your character can't see the results of the options he didn't choose.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Vandrayke wrote...

In an ideal world, I'd of course prefer having a dozen voiced over lines to choose from. But if I had to choose between 10 typed options and 3 fully voiced ones, I'd choose the 3 because they'd feel more tangible to me and I'd probably enjoy the game more.

Though in DA2 the question is do you want to choose among 3 voiced lines the game has decided suit your character, or among the larger number of voiced lines that exist but the game is hiding from you?

[Vandrayke]

So, in essence, I guess wanting voiced over lines has nothing to do with my aptitude when it comes to reading more options and becoming confused