1133 réponses à ce sujet

[pprrff]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

 But that's exactly my point. Some folks like those things for themselves, rather than because they suit the particular situation. If you look at the "Disappointment with ME2" thread, you'll see that some folks want traditional RPG gameplay even though it doesn't make any sense for Shepard. Yes, they really do want a Shepard who scavenges for his equipment and doesn't know how to aim at the start of ME1

While this is true, there are yet some other players who want Shepard always to be a good shot because she is the aforementioned super-soldier.

Unfortunately, she isn't necessarily a good shot.  She's only a good shot if the player is a good shot.  I would much prefer ME's combat if it worked like KotOR's combat.  Or even just had a bit of auto-aim in it (ME2-PC appears to have no aim-assist at all).

Like I said, there will be people who expected Kotor combat in ME, which is understandable since ME was marketed as an RPG. It's still a good game and doesn't deserve all the bashing it get on it's own fan forum.

[jazzy B 3]

Having to play as a human is exactly like not being able to play as a Qunari in DA:O. It is directly related to the story, a part of the story device and is about Bioware telling a specific story (and allowing us to have a hand in how it turns out). I find this and the framed narative design of the game to be highly compelling elements. In this game it would not make any sense to make the player dwarven or elven, in the same way as in Origins it would make no sense to have the player as Qunari.

[Haexpane]

What BioWare want's is a continuous Runner's high. I heard they installed treadmills at every cubicle, and the development team must code while running.

[Sylvius the Mad]

pprrff wrote...

Like I said, there will be people who expected Kotor combat in ME, which is understandable since ME was marketed as an RPG. It's still a good game and doesn't deserve all the bashing it get on it's own fan forum.

I think ME was a terrible game by RPG standards, but the combat had little to do with it.

[chessplayer209]

If you prefer the kinds of RPG you were discussing, I suggest you check out The Witcher.

[Sidney]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
What if your character concept is more nuanced than that?  I recognise that games like ME limit players to choosing broad archetypes and nothing more, but RPGs traditionally allow for very detailed character design.  Your character might have foibles that have never occurred to BioWare's writers.  Perhaps she gets irrationally angry when people use certain types of arguments.

You can know this.  BioWare can't.  You should get to choose.

PnP might allow this but CRPG's never have allowed this. PnP all have the same basic desing of 3-5 menu driven dialog options which are good, neutral, evil, more info and I don't know in most cases. There's nothing more you can do with it when someone else is writing your dialog for you.

Your character might have "foibles" Bioware never thought of but they'll never be reflected in any dialog because if they didn't think of it it doesn't exist in the game. You can define your character only within the game within the limits allowed by each dialog node's options.

Anything beyond that, my character like to knit while drinking Chai tea, is outside the game and it really doesn't matter because you could pretend Ezzio in AC2 has those same foibles for all the good it'll do you.

[Sidney]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Unfortunately, she isn't necessarily a good shot.  She's only a good shot if the player is a good shot.  I would much prefer ME's combat if it worked like KotOR's combat.  Or even just had a bit of auto-aim in it (ME2-PC appears to have no aim-assist at all).

For all the bed wetting about inventory and other things this is the real flaw in ME2's RPG credentials. Your charcter isn't a good shot if the player isn't a good shot. Same stupid annoyance from Oblivion with lockpicking, FO3 with computer hacking and so on except combat is a bigger and more obvious part of the game. T

[Sylvius the Mad]

Sidney wrote...

PnP might allow this but CRPG's never have allowed this. PnP all have the same basic desing of 3-5 menu driven dialog options which are good, neutral, evil, more info and I don't know in most cases. There's nothing more you can do with it when someone else is writing your dialog for you.

In early CRPGs, the dialogue wasn't written for you.  In the Elder Scrolls games the dialogue isn't written for you.  Keyword or text-parsing dialogue systems (of the sort found from Ultima IV to Oblivion) didn't write the line for you.  The line was whatever you wanted it to be, as long as it addressed the general topic of the keyword.

What about full dialogue options makes that playstyle impossible?  Nothing.  There's no reason to view the full dialogue options written by BioWare to be any more indicative of the exact wording your PC uses than the single-word commands of NAME and JOB were in 1985.

He's your character.  He says what you want him to say.  He is the character you want him to be.  Why would you accept those restrictions you've described when they're not necessary?

Your character might have "foibles" Bioware never thought of but they'll never be reflected in any dialog because if they didn't think of it it doesn't exist in the game.

But in this case they do exist in the game, that's my point.  There are extra dialogue options the game isn't showing you because it doesn't think they suit your character.  But they're there.  If you know better whether they suit your character (and unless you didn't even try to create a personality for the PC, you do) why aren't you the one making the choice?

[AlanC9]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
What about full dialogue options makes that playstyle impossible?  Nothing.  There's no reason to view the full dialogue options written by BioWare to be any more indicative of the exact wording your PC uses than the single-word commands of NAME and JOB were in 1985.

He's your character.  He says what you want him to say.  He is the character you want him to be.  Why would you accept those restrictions you've described when they're not necessary?

I just haven't been able to see the dialog this way in any Bio game. My character is saying what the dialog box says he said, not something in my mind that's consistent with what's in the box

[Sylvius the Mad]

My character is usually saying what the dialogue box says he is, because BioWare writes terrific dialogue. But if there's ever acomflict between the dialogue and my character concept, my character concept wins.

There's only ever a problem in a game like ME where that conflict arises with nearly ever line uttered.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 20 août 2010 - 11:37 .

[maxernst]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

My character is usually saying what the dialogue box says he is, because BioWare writes terrific dialogue. But if there's ever acomflict between the dialogue and my character concept, my character concept wins.

There's only ever a problem in a game like ME where that conflict arises with nearly ever line uttered.

Personally, I find Bioware's dialog to often fall short of what I would like to say, though that's one area in which I think they've improved over time, and it's high quality dialog.  BG1 had very juvenile, amateurish dialog IMHO.  But even so, there are many, many occasions when I want to say something else.  But if your character concept is winning, then you're just imagining that you're saying different dialog than Bioware has chosen for you...doesn't it bother you that the people you're speaking to say things that make no sense at all in response?  Or do you imagine different dialog for them, too.  But in any case, I don't see how voiceover has anything to do with it, if you can imagine different words being shown on the screen, you should be able to imagine different words being said out loud with a different intonation in a different voice.  Or you could just turn off the sound when your character is speaking.  Problem solved.

I find it disappointing that we're still stuck with dialog trees...in some ways the game that came closest to allowing me to freely say what I had in mind was Morrowind.  Although the responses were pretty lackluster, I could ask anybody about a variety of topics.  I realize dealing with free text written by the player is a complex issue--but they did do it in text based adventure games, although admittedly you had a lot of I don't understand you responses.  Still, you'd think twenty years later, they might be able to simulate conversation in a more sophisticated manner than they  did then.

[David Gaider]

While this is a great philosophical dialogue about the nature of RPG's... it doesn't really belong here as it's way past being about DA2 any more. It belongs in Off Topic. I suggest moving it there, please.