1133 réponses à ce sujet

[Khavos]

Kuroi Kishin wrote...

To be honest,the only prefixed about Hawke is the name.

You sure?  You have a developer quote?

In the same way,why didn't anyone rage in Baldur's Gate for being a child of Bhaal?Wasn't that a prefixed affliction for their character?

I raged no more about it than I am now, but no, I certainly didn't like it.  One of the reasons I liked IWD over BG.  

In Planescape Torment you had a prefixed character that was Nameless One,you could only control his class.All the weapons in the game looked like one hand axes,there was no armor,although there was dialogue and choice element,although somewhat simplified.

Still it's probably the greatest RPG to date,story wise(that's subjective).

Never played it, can't comment. 

[Vulee94]

@Kuroi Kishin: Well said sir, have a cookie.

[Roth]

I can't believe people are still complaining about Hawke's armor... I mean, if he was a NPC in DAO there would be numerous threads a la OMG WERE CAN I GET HIS ARMOR I NEEDZ IT!!!



As for what I think about where Bioware's heading I'll wait until after they release the game and then I'll make an opinion. And I'm yet to be disappointed by Bioware.

[Gaxhung]

What are the important elements in an RPG anyways, is it :
- lots of tinkerable stats
- a huge dialog database
- lots of different races and classes
- large world to explore
- lots of NPCs
- completely different and varied endings?

That sounds more like PnP rpg, make stuff up as you go, with some groundrules in place.

[WilliamShatner]

Stanley Woo wrote...

oh yes we do. If you make me believe a character is like this, and make me love him for it, do not present it to me in a radically new form or you'll make me rage, and not only will I not buy your comic/movie/game/novel, but I will also flame you in your blog/forum/deeepest corner of the internet you hide in.

And that will accomplish precisely nothing. If someone decided to make Shepard into a transvestite cocaine addict (and, of course, we thought that it would work and sell and make money), all your raging and flaming would not change the direction of the game. It would not magically change Shepard into the character you want him to be. In fact, we could do whatever we wanted with Shepard without your permission, approval, or knowledge, and you'd have precisely zero control over it. That's what people mean when they say it's not your character.

I understand that you can feel a great connection to a character, and you want him to be a certain way, but guess what? Characters can change. Look at Batman, for example, or, rather, The Bat-Man. Look at the very different ways he is written and drawn. At some point, people started drawing him a different way, people started writing him a certain way. Times changed, comics changed, the world changed, and of course, Batman's stories changed to reflect what was happening in the world.

Is Batman "your" character? he's been around much, much longer than Dragon Age has. how much control do Batman fans have in what Batman scripts get approved? How much influence do Batman fans have on who's chosen as the next actor to play Batman, or what actor voices Batman, or who dubs him in foreign language versions of movies? How many times has DC Comics phones you to ask you what the next Batman game is going to be? Where's the website Batman fans go to in order to vote for which writer we want to write which Batman story featuring which Batman villain next?

What's that you say? All of these things are done by creative professionals under some kind of contract with the owner of the Batman license? And that these products are then marketed to Batman fans to enjoy or not, as they choose? You're saying that fans of a given character or setting or license or property are not active creators of those stories and games and movies? that they are consumers who "merely" love, consume, empathize with, and perhaps become attached to the character or property?

I'm being a little sarcastic because I think it's an important lesson to learn. As much as we love the characters and stories and worlds that affect us, we all are really only passive consumers of those characters, stories, and worlds. we would love for them to remain the way we love them, unchanging. But time and product move on. I don't like all Batman stories, I don't like all Batman actors, and I certainly don't like all the Batman films. but I love the character, and when a good writer writes (or a good artist draws) a good Batman story, I'll pick it up and I'll enjoy it for what it is. I will also enjoy it for how it expands my view of the character or world. If 1940's the Bat-Man is all you ever want to know or have of the character, that's fine. You can do that, and no one should judge you for that. but you'll be missing Dark Knight Batman, Knightfall Batman, killing Joke Batman, No Man's Land Batman, JLA Batman, OMAC Batman, as well as missing out on Tim Drake Robin, Spoiler, Year One Batman, the movies, and the animated series.

Yes, you may not like the directions taken by certain creators, but wouldn't it be better to go along for the ride to see what will happen in this world, or to these characters rather than lock everything into a single, restrictive paradigm? I dunno, it seems weird to me that people would rather hold onto one unchanging view than to explore views that one might never have thought of: Knightfall Batman, Spider-Man revealing his identity to Aunt May, Wash's demise in Serenity, Angel in charge of Wolfram & Hart, etc. We love characters and stories because of how they're portrayed and written and acted and drawn, whatever. Why, then, are we so against having those same characters do something in addition to something we already know and love and enjoy?

You are talking about the evolution of Batman over 70 years.  Batman changed with the times, it went in and out of fashion.  Changes were done to inject new blood into a stale formula and reverse low sales.  Again over a period of 70 years.

That is very different from a complete "reboot" (for lack of a better word) less than 2 years later.  Is the Dragon Age formula stale?  Is Dragon Age out of fashion?  Have the sales fallen from the first game?  Consideing you haven't got another product out there to compare it to the answer must be know.

[Mornmagor]

Khavos wrote...

You sure?  You have a developer quote?

Let me rephrase : The only prefixed so far is the name,hopefully they won't go ninja on us  ,although Cousland was a prefixed name as well,and it had like,zero effect on the game(Warden Warden yada yada).

If they give me a prefixed character to play(like in JRPG games),i'll probably not like it,because even though i play jrpgs with prefixed characters(well only ones that i like anyway),DA:O still let you decide what kind of character he/she was,so it would be a step back.

As far as combat is concerned,i don't mind it changing,because seriously,it wasn't so good,and the physics engine need a royal overhaul(the graphics too,i didn't like the heavier armors waist down at all-yeah i'm weird ;p)

Modifié par Kuroi Kishin, 12 août 2010 - 11:59 .

[PSUHammer]

WilliamShatner wrote...
You are talking about the evolution of Batman over 70 years.  Batman changed with the times, it went in and out of fashion.  Changes were done to inject new blood into a stale formula and reverse low sales.  Again over a period of 70 years.

That is very different from a complete "reboot" (for lack of a better word) less than 2 years later.  Is the Dragon Age formula stale?  Is Dragon Age out of fashion?  Have the sales fallen from the first game?  Consideing you haven't got another product out there to compare it to the answer must be know.

You totally missed his point.

It isn't your world, story or game to decide.  You are the consumer.  Buy it...or don't.

And move on with your life! 

[Khavos]

Kuroi Kishin wrote...
Let me rephrase : The only prefixed so far is the name,hopefully they won't go ninja on us  ,although Cousland was a prefixed name as well,and it had like,zero effect on the game(Warden Warden yada yada).

There was quite a lot already determined about your character in Origins before you ever created it.  I'd plan on there being even more already decided for you in DA2.  Bioware wants to tell cinematic stories - I'm not convinced they wouldn't be happier writing books or screenplays rather than games - and the more choice they give you, the less B-movie "epic" they can make the story.

As far combat is concerned,i don't mind it changing,because seriously,it wasn't so good,and the physics engine need a royal overhaul(the graphics too,i didn't like the heavier armors waist down at all-yeah i'm weird ;p)

Console or PC?  I found the PC combat to be just fine.  It was an RPG combat system, which is exactly what I wanted.  I don't just like RPGs; I have quite a few action games for the eks-bawx, but when I want to play one, I play one.  When I want to play an RPG, I want to play an RPG.

[WilliamShatner]

Hammer6767 wrote...

WilliamShatner wrote...
You are talking about the evolution of Batman over 70 years.  Batman changed with the times, it went in and out of fashion.  Changes were done to inject new blood into a stale formula and reverse low sales.  Again over a period of 70 years.

That is very different from a complete "reboot" (for lack of a better word) less than 2 years later.  Is the Dragon Age formula stale?  Is Dragon Age out of fashion?  Have the sales fallen from the first game?  Consideing you haven't got another product out there to compare it to the answer must be know.

You totally missed his point.

I don't think so.  His point was that everything changes.  My point is that in the example he gave changes did not come about suddenly.  Two years after the first Batman issue was released the style and type of stories were still pretty much the exact same.

I think people are much more receptive to a gradual evolution rather than an unprovoked revolt.

It isn't your world, story or game to decide.  You are the consumer.  Buy it...or don't.

And move on with your life! 

No problem, I'll move on to all those other games that offer pre-2010-BioWare-like experiences for me to enjoy...

oh wait.

Point is up until recently BioWare were one of the very, very, very, very, very few companies that offered experiences like KOTOR, JE, ME and DA (Obsidian is the only other company I can think of).  There are many people who love this style of gaming and wait patiently for the next game because until FPSs or racing game there isn't one released every week.  So when the one company we could trust to bring us those experiences aren't doing those anymore you can be sure people are going to be very upset.

I'm not sure whether I will buy DA2 or not yet, half the stuff I read gets me excited, half the other stuff makes me put my hand in my head.  Time will tell.

Modifié par WilliamShatner, 12 août 2010 - 12:12 .

[joriandrake]

WilliamShatner wrote...

I'm not sure whether I will buy DA2 or not yet, half the stuff I read gets me excited, half the other stuff makes me put my head in my head. 

wat? :happy:

[kurtsquirt]

Jeedepee wrote...

I don't play Bioware games because they're RPGs, I play them because they're Bioware games.
Same way with movies, I don't watch Tarantino movies because they're a certain genre of movie.

Bioware makes games that are Bioware first and foremost. They all have the same feel to them, regardless of what genre they are, or what setting they're in.
Their previous games weren't great because they were rpgs, they were great because they were Bioware rpgs.

As long as they keep true to their 'signature', nobody really has a right to complain.

Agreed, and from what i've seen i'm really looking foward to exploring more of the DA or bioware universe.

[Khavos]

Jeedepee wrote...

I don't play Bioware games because they're RPGs, I play them because they're Bioware games.
Same way with movies, I don't watch Tarantino movies because they're a certain genre of movie.

Bioware makes games that are Bioware first and foremost. They all have the same feel to them, regardless of what genre they are, or what setting they're in.
Their previous games weren't great because they were rpgs, they were great because they were Bioware rpgs.

As long as they keep true to their 'signature', nobody really has a right to complain.

Sure we do.  I play RPGs primarily for character building and good RPG combat mechanics; if I wanted a derivative, cliched story about one man and his band of endlessly faithful followers - who swore their lives to him based on ten minutes of conversation - saving the world, I'd read fan fiction.  

[Faz432]

An RPG should be where you drive the character/role through the story, ME1 had that and so did DA:O. ME2 didn't, you were the passenger of the story and shepard was along for the ride too. Awakenings was more like this and from what I hear about the DLC's they are like this too.

When all the evidence points to a trend don't blame people for making a resonable conclusion.

If I had my cynical head on I would say I feel that since EA took over Bioware it feels as though the soul of Bioware is being sapped and that maybe the creative directors are falling out of love with game development or maybe they're just under greater pressure to meet sales targets.

[adi4444]

i am with you! if its realy the direction bioware is taking, for me the will be just another company i will prefer to buy diablo 3 insted of da2...

Modifié par adi4444, 12 août 2010 - 12:40 .

[Ariella]

To the op:



I can point out some CRPGs to you that had as much "choice" in stats, leveling, et al.



Quest for Glory comes to mind: No customization of how the character looked, no choice of gender, minimalist inventory (couldn't even choose the kind of weapon or armor you wanted to use until part 5).



Bioware's RPGs (and yes, they are RPGs) are becoming less along the vein of D&D and closer to the Storytelling system, where there was always less emphasis on the stat crunching end, having the best magical/technological whatsits and more about who the character is in the world and their struggles. DA and ME fit the spirit of what an rpg is better than many of the "old school games" that were labeled RPG (Don't get me wrong, I miss the old goldbox games sometimes, and things like Bard's Tale 3 but THOSE were closer to being action games than anything I've seen Bioware produce).

[Khavos]

Ariella wrote...

To the op:

I can point out some CRPGs to you that had as much "choice" in stats, leveling, et al.

Quest for Glory comes to mind: No customization of how the character looked, no choice of gender, minimalist inventory (couldn't even choose the kind of weapon or armor you wanted to use until part 5).

Bioware's RPGs (and yes, they are RPGs) are becoming less along the vein of D&D and closer to the Storytelling system, where there was always less emphasis on the stat crunching end, having the best magical/technological whatsits and more about who the character is in the world and their struggles. DA and ME fit the spirit of what an rpg is better than many of the "old school games" that were labeled RPG (Don't get me wrong, I miss the old goldbox games sometimes, and things like Bard's Tale 3 but THOSE were closer to being action games than anything I've seen Bioware produce).

I'm sorry, did you not play ME2 or something?  That game was built as a shooter from the ground up, with RPG bits tacked on.  That's not opinion; the lead designer's own GDC presentation spells it out.  DA2's been described as playing like Ninja Gaiden.  They're making action games with (fewer and fewer) RPG elements.  If you honestly feel that being able to make Bioware's character say something in an angry tone instead of in a nice tone is all it takes to make a game an RPG, then I guess you're entitled to your opinion.

[captain.subtle]

GwaR9292 wrote...

Archdemon Cthulhu :
I^a Cthulhu I^a Dagon R^yhlen

Fh'tagn you!

[Klimy]

Stanley Woo wrote...
 If someone decided to make Shepard into a transvestite cocaine addict (and, of course, we thought that it would work and sell and make money), all your raging and flaming would not change the direction of the game. It would not magically change Shepard into the character you want him to be. In fact, we could do whatever we wanted with Shepard without your permission, approval, or knowledge, and you'd have precisely zero control over it. That's what people mean when they say it's not your character.

Whaa? Shepard is a cocaine addict?! This explains why he runs so funny

[HELLOWORLDDANG]

[quote]Bobad wrote...

[quote]filetemo wrote...

[quote]Bryy_Miller wrote...
Nope. The fans never own a character created by someone else. 
[/quote]

oh yes we do. If you make me believe a character is like this, and make me love him for it, do not present it to me in a radically new form or you'll make me rage, and not only will I not buy your comic/movie/game/novel, but I will also flame you in your blog/forum/deeepest corner of the internet you hide in.
That's why we are fans "if you don't like it don't buy it", right?
wrong
"I won't buy it and I will flame you to death till the end of the days"
 (BoBad) i can understand how you "love" (feel intact) with the development of your character but to speak such hostile slander and want to actually pursue it towards one of the most fan dedicated orginizations before you even considered accepting change. you must first ask yourself. Do you love yourself and do you love this real world that you have been brought into? Be grateful for what you have and what is to come.
you feel me tho BO? you basically said you want to be a rage demon to haunt bioware in their dreams . tstststststststst

Modifié par HELLOWORLDDANG, 12 août 2010 - 03:22 .

[TMZuk]

Stanley Woo wrote...

I understand that you can feel a great connection to a character, and you want him to be a certain way, but guess what? Characters can change. Look at Batman, for example, or, rather, The Bat-Man. Look at the very different ways he is written and drawn. At some point, people started drawing him a different way, people started writing him a certain way. Times changed, comics changed, the world changed, and of course, Batman's stories changed to reflect what was happening in the world.

It is a poor comparison, IMO.

Batman is a comic-book character. We aren't talking about comic-books, but RPG's. In an RPG you are asuming another personae, or you are projecting your own personae into a different realm. Therefore you wish to have control over said personae.

The more you take that control away, the less an RPG it becomes, and the more an adventure game. As I've said  in other threads: You cannot make Hawke black, oriental, scandinavian, slavic or anything else, because you are stuck with his name and the looks of his family.

When I played BG, alone and with friends, we made our own backgrounds. Not because they influenced the game in any direct manner, but they did indirectly, because they where instrumental in which course you'd choose through the game. When playing DA:O, I had less control over my background, but I had a number of different backgrounds to choose from, and they affected my play as well.

My Dalish elf respcted and admired Duncan, and gained a new perspective on humans through that, whereas my human noble despised Duncan for being conscripted into the wardens. My Dalish had a naive outlook, my noble a cynical and arrogant outlook.

Now we are restricted to ONE background. That reduces replayability, it reduces creativity, it reduces all the things that, IMO, are essential to a good RPG. Perhaps information will come out that will change how I regard DA2 at the moment, but I fear it will be a sleek, polished adventure like ME2, which I played through twice and then was done with, while on the other hand I am still playing a heavily modded version of BG/BG2.

Modifié par TMZuk, 12 août 2010 - 02:51 .

[AlanC9]

Faz432 wrote...

An RPG should be where you drive the character/role through the story, ME1 had that and so did DA:O. ME2 didn't, you were the passenger of the story and shepard was along for the ride too. Awakenings was more like this and from what I hear about the DLC's they are like this too.

I don't see how ME2 was different from ME1 in this regard. Can you elaborate?

[Bryy_Miller]

WilliamShatner wrote...

Hammer6767 wrote...

WilliamShatner wrote...
You are talking about the evolution of Batman over 70 years.  Batman changed with the times, it went in and out of fashion.  Changes were done to inject new blood into a stale formula and reverse low sales.  Again over a period of 70 years.

That is very different from a complete "reboot" (for lack of a better word) less than 2 years later.  Is the Dragon Age formula stale?  Is Dragon Age out of fashion?  Have the sales fallen from the first game?  Consideing you haven't got another product out there to compare it to the answer must be know.

You totally missed his point.

I don't think so.  His point was that everything changes.  

*facepalm*
His point was that we don't own Batman.

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...
*snip* Woo is talking about evolution of Batman and fan reaction to that among other things.

Just wanted to say one thing to this and I apologize if someone has already said it.  I don't think comparing Hawke or Shepard to Batman is an accurate thing to do specifically because the fans do actually have significant say in how Hawke and Shepard evolve. 

You are mixing up the idea of a feature of the game with ownership of the character.

[maxernst]

@TMZuk, in Baldur's Gate, the PC always had the same background...he was an orphan raised by Garion. Sure, you had control of his name and race and so on, but the game didn't respond very much to your race anyway and since you were raised by the same man regardless of race, you wouldn't have the normal cultural characteristics of being a dwarf/elf etc. anyway. I don't think there's any substantive difference between that and Hawke.



BTW, are you really claiming that Planescape: Torment is not a good RPG? Because you have far less choice in background there than you do in the Mass Effect games.

[AlanC9]

Also the Fallouts, and all Ultima games past III, and....... anyway, something like 1/4 of all RPGs aren't good RPGs by TMZuk's standard.