26 réponses à ce sujet

[SometimesSpring]

Guys, what's your opinion of these two heavy-armor-clad, shield-wielding warrior builds: dwarven/orcish barbarian, dwarven/oricsh berserker. I have Refinements HLAs so the barb now gets Improved Rage (+4 to STR and CON with no fatigue afterward) and berserker gets Greater War Cry (same as War Cry but at a higher penalty to saves). I also have True Grandmastery installed so the berserker would get a slightly higher thac0 and damage output.

Whatever the character I plan to go max with either flails or axes and either crossbows or short bows. I will also put a point (two if barb) into maces so I can wield the MoD as that will be my only source of NPP. I will be using the best available shield with both builds, substituting niche shields (Balduran, Harmony) when needed.

Modifié par SometimesSpring, 12 août 2010 - 12:45 .

[Chebby]

And what about bard or thief?

As for the zerker/barian argument, I've always been more kindly to the Berserker, simply due to the armour restrictions on the barbarian. Not getting hit has always been a priority of mine in BG, although at level 20+ everything is, admittedly, not worth discussing as any class past that level is either good, better or slightly better. For lower levels I consider the Barbarian to be a slow class, not really too useful as a tank even when s/he gets her/his damage reduction and in all seriousness the extra health doesn't give the Barbarian an advantage over the Berserker, when the Barbarian is more likely to take hits.
Also, if you go by what the game says, rather than looking into the mechanics to see how everything works, the Berserker resists a lot more instant-death spells whilst berserking, IIRC.

As for bard/thief, although at time of my posting you didn't give us anything to go by, Bards cannot dual-class whilst Thieves can. There has also been a lot of speculation as to whether or not the bardsong works as intended, although the Skald kit is reported to work very nicely. Both classes feel kind of lacking, all the same. As a Human Thief, you only need level 6 (20,000 Exp) to put 100 in both find traps and pick locks, then you can dual into something more worth your while, like a Fighter, Cleric or Mage. Bards are stuck with the one class, questionable kits (the Blade kit never appealed to me) with the only benefits being high lore and a somewhat restricted array of spells.

Modifié par Chebby, 12 août 2010 - 12:35 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Barbarian can't wear the heavy armor.
Usually the berserker is better, damage wise and protection-wise, but if you build up on what the barbarian offers (minor physical resistances) you can create a pretty nifty tank. Of course, without the option of dualclassing to thief and using UAI (Refinements) the "only" bonuses left for you are Hardiness, Defender of Easthaven, Belt of Inertial Barrier and Roranach's Horn - which should bring you to 80% vs everything except Crushing damage (I hope for you that you don't also have the revised armory installed, capping resistances at 66% IIRC)...

Edit: As for dwarf vs halforc, dwarf is the defensive option, halforc the offensive one.

Edit2: Bard and thief are very different classes. I don't think we can give you much useful input on this without more to go on.

Modifié par Humanoid_Taifun, 12 août 2010 - 12:39 .

[SometimesSpring]

Sorry about not giving any info on the bard/thief question, premie post I guess.



Hmm... so a half-orc berserker looks to be the best offensive option, though a dwarf would sacrifice a bit of STR and DEX for better saves which are important in a solo. I like the orc though, haven't played that race in a while either. Of course, I've never played a dwarf.



HT, I don't have Revised Armory, so a half-orc barbarian does seem a nice option for a mix of offense and defense. 80% damage resistance is REALLY appealing. Even if I do end up taking a few more hits, they'll be sponged up nicely. Plus all the equipment (except Rora's Horn) can be had early and I'll touch 3m XP quite fast soloing. Only downside is when I switch weapons I lose out on the DoE resistance bonus, plus I can't wear the Girdle of Frost Giant Strength if I'm wearing the Inertial Barrier Belt.



Gotta think on this one... leaning a slight bit more to the barb but not by much. It's like 55-45 right now.



As for thief vs bard, both can set traps and use any item they want at high levels. In your experience, has backstab (and maze traps in the case of the bounty hunter) or spellcasting (and better melee in the case of the blade) been better in the long run? I know most bosses are immune to backstab but I'd just Vhailor a sim, cast Time Stop via scroll and spam spike traps in that case. As for bards, I have the G3 Tweakpack's un-nerfed bard spell progression table installed so they end up with a good array of spells including 2 level 9 castings (PW: Kill ftw!). I've always been partial to assassins, and bard song makes no difference here (again, a solo character).

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Don't use a shield. Forgot to mention it but the DoE is best used in your left hand.
Most shields aren't worth a weapon slot, and post BG1 IMO none are worth it just because of their AC bonus.

With Refinements HLAs, thieves do not get UAI. Thieves are very interesting characters, but as Chebby said, you may get more out of them in a combination. Of course, that's not a requirement, and a high level bounty hunter can do a lot of good bad.
A Fighter/thief is a simpler version of the thief, with more HP, APR and dmg per hit. A cleric/thief is the only combination able to fulfill all four classic jobs (thief, mage, fighter, cleric)... Of course, there are also vivid fans of the FMT and MT (and for good reasons, of course) but I'll be partial today. (that's a stupid pun, yes)

The bard, or better, the blade (since that is the best bard kit) is a magically supported warrior. Sure, they can cast spells, and at high level (with mods), but usually they will use blades. If you build one correctly, you can get them to strength 25 with 9 APR and I probably don't have to spell out what that means. (especially against enemies vulnerable to Time Trap)

Personally, I favor the blade, but a well-played backstabber with boots of speed is appealing, too. Which one is more powerful? The one that has more mage spells (as always).

Edit: Just to clarify (before questions arise): Yes, even with Refinements thieves can use scrolls. Instead of UAI they have "Use Scrolls". Guess what it does.

Modifié par Humanoid_Taifun, 12 août 2010 - 01:46 .

[Shadow_Leech07]

On barbarian vs beserker: The barbarian is more defensive and can take a lot more then a beserker. When you reach high levels, he could be invulnerable to most physical attacks with hardiness(with defender of easthaven offhand and gromnir's helm). The beserker has built-in demi-lich protection. Either can solo the game, you probably will have an easier time with the barbarian IMO.



Thief vs bard: In terms of soloing they are probably both the same power-wise, but give immensely different experiences altogether while running through the game. Because of UAI you could be stocking up on a gazillion spells in the game, and come endgame time you'll probably be doing similar things anyways. All a matter of taste I suppose.

[AnonymousHero]

Since someone mentioned the Bounty Hunter Maze trap. It's actually a lot more powerful than it seems. The fact that it separates enemies temporally rather than spatially can be a huge boon -- it really lets you make the most of the other traps since they'll almost never be wasted on "overkill". In addition, I believe some (all?) enemies which are normally immune to Maze can be mazed by it.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

IIRC, the BH trap can also be used over a greater distance than normal traps, allowing you to bring the trap that much closer to the enemy.

[SometimesSpring]

Yeah, basically you can scout, move just outside enemy range, and throw a maze trap their way and it'll zap them into... a maze. =P



I'm working on a Berserker/Cleric dualled at level 8 (two castings of rage plus only 225000 XP to regain the class) currently at cleric level 11. This one is an old character I took through TuTu, hence the insane stats of 19 STR/DEX/CON and 21 WIS. I remember it took forever to roll but worth it. Basic strategy is to cast Armor of Faith + Righteous Magic + DUHM (how I wish priests had Chain Contingencies) as pre-buffs, walk into a group of baddies, let loose a Holy Smite and clean up what's left with my flail/morningstar/hammer (currently The Sleeper). I brought Edwin into the party just to use Limited Wish and get me the Full Plate +2, which combined with the Fortress Shield, Helm of Balduran and my DEX bonus gives me around -10 AC. That goes up even further using Defensive Harmony and the STR-boosting buffs. Love this guy, and it seems fit for a cleric to go sword and board rather than dual wield, so that's gonna be my style for now. Gives me three points I can put elsewhere (grandmastery in hammers anyone?).

[Sexy Gnome]

The differences if I am not mistaken are:
Barbarian
-Not winded when rage ends
-Immune to backstab
- -2 to saves vs spells when raging
-+4str/con when raging
- maximum +18 hp
-+2 movement
- May use ranged weapons
- Has physical resistance 10% at level 11+5 every 4 levels? Caps at 20%
-Rage lasts 30 seconds and when it ends you may reenter it immediatly

Berserker:
-Can wear heavy armor
-Can attain grandmastery
-Immune to Imprisonment when raging
-+2to hit/damage when raging
-15 temporary hp
-rage lasts 60 seconds, you are winded 30 seconds afterward, which means 2 penalty to Ac/attack/damage and inability to enter rage


EDIT: Added what the fellow posters contributed, about rage duration and barbarian physical resistance

Modifié par Sexy Gnome, 14 août 2010 - 08:22 .

[Slyx]

Enrage, the Berserker ability, lasts 60 seconds. After 60 seconds, you're "winded" for 30 seconds. In that time, you lose 2 AC/THAC0/damage and you cannot re-cast Enrage until that 30 seconds is over. Well, you can recast it I think, but it will not hold.



Barbarian Rage lasts 30 seconds with no cool down afterward.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

The barbarian resistances are capped at 20%.

Don't forget that attribute bonuses are only useful if you're not already at the cap. A halforc warrior can in theory attain str 25 (tome, hell trials, DoMT, MoLtM) and con 25 (tome, hell trials, MoLtM, Soulgem, Axe of Unyielding).

The best ranged weapons for high-strength characters are throwing axes or slings (and if you've got grandmastery in one already because of your melee weapon, extra bonus points ), and berserkers can use throwing axes.

[Chebby]

I'd say it bubbles down to which you'd prefer; doing well earlier on or becoming damn good later on.

It all depends on your viewpoint on the AC loss/HP/DR arguments.

I'd say berserker wins simply due to armour choices and such, but the barbarian's massive HP pool combined with his admittedly late damage reduction may win out at the end, only to have the two of them KO'd by the monk. :>

[SometimesSpring]

Well my Berserker/Cleric is shaping out very nicely. Every major battle sees him doing 4 APR with 25 STR and a good weapon (DoE). I know I could have other builds that do 9 or 10 APR at max damage, but it's not always about straight up powergaming. Besides, I'm not an Ascension or Tactics player so I think this is good enough for the vanilla game.



Now realistically speaking, I'm quite sure that I will get bored of this sometime in the Underdark. Well, I've got a Necromancer saved just before the fight with Bodhi to retrive the Rynn Lanthorn, so I'll switch there to keep my interest piqued before I go ditching this guy like I've done to so many characters. But I'm happy with him over the Barbarian. I get decent damage resistance with DoE and Armor of Faith; I have a nice bit of rage and the cooldown is countered by my artificial 25 STR; and once I get the Sentinel shield, Ring of Gaxx and Amulet of Seldarine, I'll have a constant -17 AC. Sure it won't matter much in ToB but meh, that's so far down the road.

[Jigwel]

Thief and bard? Not too comparable I'd say, single class thieves aren't too usual in bg2 but I think Bounty Hunter and Assassin are interesting even if they will probably struggle because of lack of micro management in larger parties. Bards are more a matter of preference since you can do perfectly well with or without them but your not missing much by not having one.



I've recently been using Korgan again, along with a kensai as my front liners and I think berzerkers are a bit too good, I'd say better than a barbarian but it's close. A lot of the barbarian's bonuses are rather marginal and the inability to wear heavy armour makes them a little vulnerable early on but eventually with the high damage resistances they can be the better class and I would go for them over the berserker for a pure class.

[SometimesSpring]

Yeah pure class wise I realize now a Barb is definitely better long-term. The +4 to STR and CON are a boon, especially if you have a half-orc with 19/19 taken through the series. The BG1 tomes bring both stats to 20; the Hell Trials make it 21; from here, raging gives you 25/25. Perfect. And chain mail goes as low as 0, the Aslyferund armor granting immunity to normal weapons. Or you could go for the White Dragon Scale for a -2 base AC. Anyway, the common idea is that thac0 > AC in ToB since enemies will hit you anyway.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Strenght 19 + Tome + Hell Trials = 23

Constitution 19 + Tome + Hell Trials = 22

As I said, it's possible to bring both to 25 without use of spells or Crom Faeyr (though a barbarian wouldn't be able to equip the armor necessary to do this).

[Sexy Gnome]

Doesn't gaining strength from hells trials requires you to take the evil path?

Also for reaching that strength you must play a half orc from BG1, anything else makes it impossible.

Modifié par Sexy Gnome, 14 août 2010 - 08:28 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Sexy Gnome wrote...

Doesn't gaining strength from hells trials requires you to take the evil path?

Yes it does. It doesn't seem to be something that SometimesSpring is opposed to however.

Also for reaching that strength you must play a half orc from BG1, anything else makes it impossible.

Which seems to be part of the plan of SometimesSpring.

[SometimesSpring]

Well okay, I'm not averse to acts of mayhem and evil. If I go barbarian I'll play either chaotic neutral or neutral evil, so killing anyone and anything doesn't seem to be a problem to me. =)



And yes the plan is to take the barbarian through from the very beginning. The berserker>cleric game is severly bugged, for some reason every time I enter Brynnlaw the game crashes, even in all my older saves. So it's gonna be a fresh start (probably the 100th this year =|).

[SometimesSpring]

Quick question: what would be the best ranged weapon for a half-orc barb with 20 base STR and 19 base DEX?

[Humanoid_Taifun]

SometimesSpring wrote...

Quick question: what would be the best ranged weapon for a half-orc barb with 20 base STR and 19 base DEX?

Have you read my posts at all?

Throwing axes and Sling of Seeking.

Modifié par Humanoid_Taifun, 15 août 2010 - 09:56 .

[SometimesSpring]

Sorry about that, I forgot to delete this after posing the question on the other topic. I did end up going slings and two-handed swords.

[SometimesSpring]

Okay, so I finished my SoA portion of the game with my half-orc barbarian. There's not much that can touch this guy when he's got the Impaler couple with Whirlwind, 75% magic resistance and 75% damage resistance.

[corey_russell]

Congratulations.