162 réponses à ce sujet

[Kohaku]

Anarya wrote...

Superhero comics are just a big ol' clusterf--k. It makes it so intimidating for new people to jump in.

Very true. Every so often I check up on all the major players in both the Marvel and DC Universe to make sure:  1. The person isn't dead, 2. The person gained/lost super powers, 3. If the respective universes is doing an “Exalted March” on people's asses and they've radically changed the whole world over.

Edit: @Shinian2 - I personally have only finished one full play though of DA:O and started others that haven't gotten finished. The other Origins are interesting but maybe not something that would get me to play though the game another six times beyond the opening areas.

Modifié par Kerridan Kaiba, 12 août 2010 - 07:17 .

[Dave of Canada]

Shinian2 wrote...

So you only made 1 playthrough? You were never curious how other origins and choices played out?

I have more playthroughs, yes. Although basing entire sequels on the chance the player chose one ending over an another is kind of silly / ridiculous.

[Aedan_Cousland]

There is no reason to continue with the Warden's story after the events of DA:O and the expansion, even for players whose Warden survived. In fact most of the epilogues make it so that your character shouldn't be out there risking his or her life on random quests that should be delegated to other adventurers. My canon Warden for example, is Chancellor of Ferelden. The Chancellor of Ferelden wouldn't be adventuring in foreign lands. Neither would the King or Queen Consort of Ferelden, the Teyrn of Gwaren, Bann of the Denerim City Elves, or a Paragon Dwarf who heads a noble house.

[dheer]

Dave of Canada wrote...
I have more playthroughs, yes. Although basing entire sequels on the chance the player chose one ending over an another is kind of silly / ridiculous.

It woudln't be based on chance at all. The ultimate sacrifice is the end of that warden. It shouldn't stop anyone else from playing their character.

I find it silly / ridiculous that you think everyone else's choices are rendered false because of yours.

[Dave of Canada]

dheer wrote...

I find it silly / ridiculous that you think everyone else's choices are rendered false because of yours.

Dark Ritual / Ultimate Sacrifice (Loghain / Alistair) aren't rendered false. They continue perfectly fine. But making SEQUELS for people who chose them? That's ridiculous.

[dheer]

Dave of Canada wrote...
Dark Ritual / Ultimate Sacrifice (Loghain / Alistair) aren't rendered false. They continue perfectly fine. But making SEQUELS for people who chose them? That's ridiculous.

Sense. This makes none. You wouldn't have to play the same character. I'd guess you could be a new character or continue your own Warden / Orlesian Warden with slight changes made in some interactions like they do for race / sex / etc. How is that in any way ridiculous?

[Akka le Vil]

Shinian2 wrote...

So you only made 1 playthrough? You were never curious how other origins and choices played out?

What's the point of transfering the savegame if it's to have only one path considered "canonical" ? This doesn't really compute.

dheer wrote...

I find it silly / ridiculous that you think everyone else's choices are rendered false because of yours.

But of course you find perfectly okay to rend OTHER'S choices false because of YOURS.
Still an hypocrite, I see.

Modifié par Akka le Vil, 12 août 2010 - 07:34 .

[AlexXIV]

dheer wrote...

Drizzt ORierdan wrote...
...Because that enables you to develope the characters and dig deep into the story, rahter than just touch the surface. They have built a huge world with different cultrures and history, most of which we apparently wont see, unless they secretly think of keep going up to Dragon Age 10.

Well put Drizzt. Digging into the setting through a continuing tale is more engaging, I believe.

Having to play a new character every time just gives us a brief glimpse of the world every few years. My guess is It'll feel disconnected from game to game, will get stale and probably stall out after a while if they don't change course in subsequent installments.

Even the Grey Warden was only customizable to like 10% of what could have been. Just think about how much your customized character changed the story or how it affected different paths to solve problems. Did it really matter whether you were a dwarf or elf for your quests in Orzammar? Or in the Brecillian forest? Did it matter to your LIs (or people in general) whether you were good looking or not? Did you even have a choice whether you wanted to solve a situation with violence or some non violent means?

If they made main characters more customizable and the game actually react on the different 'types' then people could maybe connect with their characters better. But I think Bioware is going the road of some half-arsed RPG, half-arsed action adventure. If you asked me, you recognize a good RPG in the details, the many little things that make you and the game feel unique. the responsiveness of the game on who your character is and what he or she does. From look and clotthes to different ways to solve problems, the way you talk, the people you befriend or make enemies, etc. But that's not what Bioware are doing or even trying.

[dheer]

Akka le Vil wrote...
But of course you find perfectly okay to rend OTHER'S choices false because you YOURS.
Still an hypocrite, I see.

I don't think the ultimate sacrifice ending is false at all. It's a fine heroic ending that i've done myself. Continuing a story for someone else doesn't make it invalid.

Still a troll, I see.

[AlexXIV]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Shinian2 wrote...

So you only made 1 playthrough? You were never curious how other origins and choices played out?

What's the point of transfering the savegame if it's to have only one path considered "canonical" ? This doesn't really compute.

dheer wrote...

I find it silly / ridiculous that you think everyone else's choices are rendered false because of yours.

But of course you find perfectly okay to rend OTHER'S choices false because you YOURS.
Still an hypocrite, I see.

Why does it even matter? If you had fun playing with your choices, why would you get offended if the story gets canonized differently? It is not a test or lottery where you win or lose. Nothing takes away your experience and the fun you had playing. I wouldn't mind if the ultimate sacrifice was the fate of the Grey Warden, but why then make Awakening? Just for the money?

[Dave of Canada]

dheer wrote...

Sense. This makes none. You wouldn't have to play the same character. I'd guess you could be a new character or continue your own Warden / Orlesian Warden with slight changes made in some interactions like they do for race / sex / etc. How is that in any way ridiculous?

Because having multiple games available to one character while leaving those who sacrificed themselves in the first one to simply say "Meh. You got better." is horrible story telling?

[Enshaid]

Dave of Canada wrote...

dheer wrote...

Sense. This makes none. You wouldn't have to play the same character. I'd guess you could be a new character or continue your own Warden / Orlesian Warden with slight changes made in some interactions like they do for race / sex / etc. How is that in any way ridiculous?

Because having multiple games available to one character while leaving those who sacrificed themselves in the first one to simply say "Meh. You got better." is horrible story telling?

Cerberus brought 'em back.

[Nerevar-as]

dheer wrote...

Akka le Vil wrote...
But of course you find perfectly okay to rend OTHER'S choices false because you YOURS.
Still an hypocrite, I see.

I don't think the ultimate sacrifice ending is false at all. It's a fine heroic ending that i've done myself. Continuing a story for someone else doesn't make it invalid.

Still a troll, I see.

But you sound as if you don´t want it valid for anyone who didn´t take it. It isn´t so difficult to keep the Origins Warden for a sequel and a new one if you went US. You sacrificed your GW? Fine. Mine is looking for Morrigan. A resolution would mean something for me and harm you in nothing.

[AlexXIV]

Dave of Canada wrote...

dheer wrote...

Sense. This makes none. You wouldn't have to play the same character. I'd guess you could be a new character or continue your own Warden / Orlesian Warden with slight changes made in some interactions like they do for race / sex / etc. How is that in any way ridiculous?

Because having multiple games available to one character while leaving those who sacrificed themselves in the first one to simply say "Meh. You got better." is horrible story telling?

It's not like it would be the first Bioware main character that dies and 'gets better'.

[dheer]

Dave of Canada wrote...
Because having multiple games available to one character while leaving those who sacrificed themselves in the first one to simply say "Meh. You got better." is horrible story telling?

Well, true. I don't find contiuning an ultimate sacrifice character into another expansion / sequel and saying you got better good either.

The point is you don't have to play that character any longer. He/she went out in a a spectacular way and you were rewarded with a noble, heroic and moving ending.

[Nerevar-as]

Dave of Canada wrote...

dheer wrote...

Sense. This makes none. You wouldn't have to play the same character. I'd guess you could be a new character or continue your own Warden / Orlesian Warden with slight changes made in some interactions like they do for race / sex / etc. How is that in any way ridiculous?

Because having multiple games available to one character while leaving those who sacrificed themselves in the first one to simply say "Meh. You got better." is horrible story telling?

New Character if you are dead? What´s the problem? I guess you didn´t get Awakening.

[SirOccam]

I'm not one of those who still insist that DA2 should be about the Warden, but on the other hand, 30 years is a long time (assuming the Warden didn't die killing the AD). It seemed like there should be plenty more good that he could do that didn't involve killing an Archdemon. Grey Wardens have to keep themselves busy between Blights somehow, and there appeared to be plenty of plot fodder for future stories. It'd be like stopping the story of Luke Skywalker after A New Hope. Yes he destroyed the Death Star; great victory, but it doesn't mean there's nothing else he can do.

Anyway, all that said, I understand why they chose a new character, and I'm not upset at all about it anymore. I'm looking forward to it. I do still think there's plenty of room for Warden adventures, but this could all take place in DLC and expansions, I guess.

Apollo Starflare wrote...

I wonder how fans of the Hobbit coped when they found out LotR wasn't about Bilbo Baggins?

I actually remember this very clearly. I dearly loved the Hobbit when I read it, and I resented this "Frodo" guy that I was supposed to care about. For a little while, I even put off reading LotR because of it. Fortunately the madness passed and I made myself read it. And I loved it, of course.

[The Edge]

Maybe the Warden will be the PC in DA3 if you chose the Dark Ritual, and Hawke will be the PC if your Warden made the Ultimate Sacrifice?



I think this would be awesome. It's a stretch to say the least, and I have no idea how or if this would work, but that's the fun in guessing, right?

[Nerevar-as]

The Edge wrote...

Maybe the Warden will be the PC in DA3 if you chose the Dark Ritual, and Hawke will be the PC if your Warden made the Ultimate Sacrifice?

I think this would be awesome. It's a stretch to say the least, and I have no idea how or if this would work, but that's the fun in guessing, right?

I agree but sadly won´t happen because of the VO (up to 14). I like voiced characters, but not if the cost is limiting the game. If Hawke is back for DA3 there´s no way I´ll believe that wasn´t the reason for the main character change.

[Akka le Vil]

AlexXIV wrote...

Why does it even matter? If you had fun playing with your choices, why would you get offended if the story gets canonized differently? It is not a test or lottery where you win or lose. Nothing takes away your experience and the fun you had playing. I wouldn't mind if the ultimate sacrifice was the fate of the Grey Warden, but why then make Awakening? Just for the money?

Because if something is hailed as "CHOICES THAT MATTER !!!", making choices irrelevant is hardly matching the idea ?

And anyway, my point was about : there is no need to bother keeping savegames if it's to have a canonical path. Seems pretty obvious to me, as the POINT of a savegame is precisely to know what choices where made, and if there is a canonical path, well, choices made don't matter.
So if they have a canonical path, they wouldn't bother with savegame. If they bother with, then it means any sequel should respect either all the main choices. Don't you agree ?

dheer wrote...

I don't think the ultimate sacrifice ending is false at all. It's a fine heroic ending that i've done myself.
Continuing a story for someone else doesn't make it invalid.

Still a troll, I see.

Ah, I see, each time you're being shown your hypocrisy, you use the "troll" card. How mature. Not that I'm surprised.
But being a jerk doesn't change the fact you're still simply saying "I want a sequel just for people who made the same choices than me, the rest of you can pretend it doesn't exist, but if someone use the same reasoning as me but from the opposite point of view, HE'S A TROLL WAAAAH !".

Hypocrite, jerk and egocentric. What will be your next great quality ?

Modifié par Akka le Vil, 12 août 2010 - 08:22 .

[Aedan_Cousland]

But you sound as if you don´t want it valid for anyone who didn´t take it. It isn´t so difficult to keep the Origins Warden for a sequel and a new one if you went US. You sacrificed your GW? Fine. Mine is looking for Morrigan. A resolution would mean something for me and harm you in nothing.

I think it is better if the Warden doesn't return in any sequels, but we hear about him or her through codex entries or through dialogue with NPCs that either met the Warden or visited his or her tomb.  So if your Warden was Chancellor of Ferelden perhaps you read some contentious debate on policy he or she had at a landsmeet, or meet a diplomat dispatched by the Chancellor to some Lord in the Free Marches. If your Warden was King or Queen, perhaps you read about his or her coronation ceremony or laws they enacted, or maybe meet someone who had once been a servant in the Royal Palace at Denerim who gossips about the King or Queen. Or if you were the first Elven Bann of the Denerim Alienage, maybe you hear about the work your Bann has been doing to get equal treatment for the Elven citizens of Ferelden, or encounter an prejudiced human from Ferelden who complains bitterly about it, while giving new information on what your Elven Bann has been up to. 

If your Warden died, perhaps you read details about his her or her funeral and the elaborate tomb conscructed for your Warden at Weisshaupt Fortress. Or maybe you meet a traveller from the Anderfels who tells you about pilgrims from all over Thedas coming to visit the tomb to pay their respects, and about a local superstition where Ander peasants bring offerings to the tomb of the Warden, believing his or her spirit grants them luck or virility, or some such similar nonsense. By having the Warden's further exploits only appear in lore, no player is punished for their choices and even players who sacrificed their Warden, hear about how their Warden continues to have an impact on Thedas even in death.

I think things like that would be much better than having your Warden reappear as either an NPC, or a playable character in the sequel. Our DA:O' Warden's story should continue but only as lore, either accessed through reading books or scrolls found in game, or through dialogue with people that have either met the Warden, or who have been affected in way or another but his or her actions after the events of DA:O.

Modifié par Aedan_Cousland, 12 août 2010 - 08:21 .

[dheer]

Akka le Vil wrote...

dheer wrote...
I don't think the ultimate sacrifice ending is false at all. It's a fine heroic ending that i've done myself.
Continuing a story for someone else doesn't make it invalid.

Still a troll, I see.

Ah, I see, each time you're being shown your hypocrisy, you use the "troll" card. How mature. Not that I'm surprised.
But being a jerk doesn't change the fact you're still simply saying "I want a sequel just for people who made the same choices than me, the rest of you can pretend it doesn't exist, but if someone use the same reasoning as me but from the opposite point of view, HE'S A TROLL WAAAAH !".

Hypocrite, jerk and egocentric. What will be your next great quality ?

Using all caps when typing specific words doesn't show me anything.

I'm not saying the rest of you can pretend it does't exist in any way, shape or form. I just don't get your jumping to that conclusion. The US is a heroic, noble and worhty end for that Warden character.

Throwing around ad hominem attacks because you can't stand that someone else is correct is tolling. I guess I can use a different word if you want.

[Maverick827]

Rubbish Hero wrote...

I'm fairly active on the steam forums and halflife2.net

I offer my condolences for both.

[AlexXIV]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Because if something is hailed as "CHOICES THAT MATTER !!!", making choices irrelevant is hardly matching the idea ?

And anyway, my point was about : there is no need to bother keeping savegames if it's to have a canonical path. Seems pretty obvious to me, as the POINT of a savegame is precisely to know what choices where made, and if there is a canonical path, well, choices made don't matter.
So if they have a canonical path, they wouldn't bother with savegame. If they bother with, then it means any sequel should respect either all the main choices. Don't you agree ?

Well if you die or the story just ends then some of your choices don't matter either. You kill the Archdemon anyway (or your party does at least) and everything else is out of your control if you are dead. The funny thing is people will play Hawke and make the same decicions they would have made with their Warden. Evil or good, just the same. So what is really the point of changing the main character?

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

Dave of Canada wrote...

dheer wrote...

I find it silly / ridiculous that you think everyone else's choices are rendered false because of yours.

Dark Ritual / Ultimate Sacrifice (Loghain / Alistair) aren't rendered false. They continue perfectly fine. But making SEQUELS for people who chose them? That's ridiculous.

I don't understand your thinking here. Are you suggesting Bioware make no DA sequels (involving the warden) at all? Ever? I doubt that's what  you mean, but if not, I really can't see where you are coming from.

They botched the handling of the US ending being carried over to Awakening, but that doesn't mean Awakening should have never been made.