162 réponses à ce sujet

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Shinian2 wrote...

So you only made 1 playthrough? You were never curious how other origins and choices played out?

What's the point of transfering the savegame if it's to have only one path considered "canonical" ? This doesn't really compute.

dheer wrote...

I find it silly / ridiculous that you think everyone else's choices are rendered false because of yours.

But of course you find perfectly okay to rend OTHER'S choices false because of YOURS.
Still an hypocrite, I see.

I'm not sure what your reply to my post has to do with the price of tea in China..

However, When did anyone say one path is canonical? I certainly didn't.  The only expansion to DAO, Awakenings, was supposed to take into consideration all possible endings. Some were botched, especially the US, which they could have improved with a little imagination at design time. Aside from the bugs, Awakening did not force 'one single path' on you.

What is carried forward into Awakenings should be your choices for that one game of DAO, and will be different for every game you import, assuming you made different choices each time. This isn't canonizing anything.

And anyway, DA2 has a different main hero, so your choices, while being carried forward, do not affect Hawke personally. Every ending, including US, should be handled with no difficulty and to everyones satisfaction, ie no one choice being preferred over another.

[Akka le Vil]

dheer wrote...

Using all caps when typing specific words doesn't show me anything.

I'm not saying the rest of you can pretend it does't exist in any way, shape or form. I just don't get your jumping to that conclusion. The US is a heroic, noble and worhty end for that Warden character.

You actually said that :

Continuing the Warden's tale doens't force anything on you if you killed
your character with the ultimate sacrifice. That character's story is
literally over.

Now if, as you wished for, Bioware release a sequel including the Warden, people who did the US have a discontinuity with their choices. So you have YOUR choices imposed upon them, or they need to pretend the sequel doesn't exist. You consider that totally okay.

But when someone say "hey, you can't make a sequel including the warden, because for some people (s)he's dead", then you complain they try to impose THEIR choice on you.

So you may pretend that the US is a nice ending, yada yada, but the final line is that you say "Bioware should ignore the US choice and make a sequel where the Warden survive !", all the while saying that others have no right to impose their choices on you. By-the-book hypocrisy.

Throwing around ad hominem attacks because you can't stand that someone else is correct is tolling. I guess I can use a different word if you want.

You're the one using "troll" as an instant answer when you're shown you're an hypocrite, and you comment about ad hominen attacks ?
How, the irony !

[burrito]

well figuring the morrigan story will not have the warden in it and shes prolly warming some chevaliers bed.

[Akka le Vil]

Shinian2 wrote...

I'm not sure what your reply to my post has to do with the price of tea in China..

However, When did anyone say one path is canonical? I certainly didn't.  The only expansion to DAO, Awakenings, was supposed to take into consideration all possible endings. Some were botched, especially the US, which they could have improved with a little imagination at design time. Aside from the bugs, Awakening did not force 'one single path' on you.

Awakening was so botched when it came to continuity that I can't really seriously take it as an example. It was just completely bogus.

It's not really feasable to make a decent-sized sequel where you can play the Warden in one case, or a completely new character if the Warden is dead. It would require to be basically two games, considering the enormous changes from one character to another - or to simply don't bother with all the details, like Awakening did, and in this case the continuity is so badly done that it's better to not have it at all.
Not to talk about how powerful the Warden is in the end, which would make any attempt at balance a nightmare (or an even more ridiculous Monty Haul), nor the problem at having a "new" character that just start as being one of the most powerful man of the world (if you did the US and need to start with a character that is not the Warden).
And of course there is the problem of voicing over, which just kills the whole idea of importing all the six different combinations possible from the first game.

And anyway, DA2 has a different main hero, so your choices, while being carried forward, do not affect Hawke personally. Every ending, including US, should be handled with no difficulty and to everyones satisfaction, ie no one choice being preferred over another.

Yep, I never disagreed on that. It's the most efficient way to include all the endings, in fact, as simple news about the distant Ferelden, allowing for most choices to be taken into account, but not being too influential to inflate excessively the size of the game.

Modifié par Akka le Vil, 12 août 2010 - 10:21 .

[Merced256]

Whats the point of TV shows having multiple seasons?



oh wait.

[dheer]

Akka le Vil wrote...
Now if, as you wished for, Bioware release a sequel including the Warden, people who did the US have a discontinuity with their choices.

They don't have any discontinuity with their choice. The story for that Warden is over. The ending couldn't be more clear.

But when someone say "hey, you can't make a sequel including the warden, because for some people (s)he's dead", then you complain they try to impose THEIR choice on you.

I would guess that you could make a new character or continue an old one. I don't see that as some crazy idea imposed on anyone.

You're the one using "troll" as an instant answer when you're shown you're an hypocrite, and you comment about ad hominen attacks ?
How, the irony !

I'm not shown to be anything by you. Well, maybe shown to be resonable in the face of idiocy.

Not actually making an argument and trying to attack my character is the exact definition of ad hominem. Feel free to look it up.

Modifié par dheer, 12 août 2010 - 10:26 .

[Akka le Vil]

dheer wrote...

They don't have any discontinuity with their choice. The story for that Warden is over. The ending couldn't be more clear.

I would guess that you could make a new character or continue an old one. I don't see that as some crazy idea imposed on anyone.

Maybe you should read the post just two places above yours to understand why, no it's not feasible.
Of course, if it WAS, then yes it would be acceptable. They actually tried it with Awakening. The result ? Well, despite the fact that it was just a short add-on, it was a total failure when it came to continuity.
Not even remotely possible for a full-scaled sequel.

I'm not shown to be anything by you. Well, maybe shown to be resonable in the face of idiocy.

Not actually making an argument and trying to attack my character is the exact definition of ad hominem. Feel free to look it up.

Considering the blatant lack of ability to get simple concept, you're not the one to talk about idiocy, you know. Don't throw stone in a glass house and all that.
I actually made an argument, you just chose to use "TROLL !!!" as the answer, which isn't really a good show of being "reasonable". Just hypocrite, which is all you've been up to now.
Please feel free to get more mature when you want, I'll be right here. Unsurprisingly, I tend to be more interested by actual discussion than throwing dirt.

Merced256 wrote...

Whats the point of TV shows having multiple seasons?

oh wait.

TV shows aren't played, they are watched.
You don't take any decision in them, and they end in one single way. Also, there is no gameplay nor any kind of "game" concerns in them.
I don't think the comparison is very adequate.

Modifié par Akka le Vil, 12 août 2010 - 11:23 .

[Raven2131990]

Modifié par Raven2131990, 12 août 2010 - 11:19 .

[dheer]

Akka le Vil wrote...
They actually tried it with Awakening. The result ? Well, despite the fact that it was just a short add-on, it was a total failure when it came to continuity.

To be able to use an US character you had to undo your decision. I don't see a problem with that at all. It was the player's choice.

Considering the blatant lack of ability to get simple concept...

I get simple concepts just fine. Here's a few: 1. You don't have an argument. 2. So you attack me by calling me a jerk, egocentric and whatever else.

...Unsurprisingly, I tend to be more interested by actual discussion than throwing dirt.

Certainly doesn't seem like it.

Modifié par dheer, 13 août 2010 - 12:09 .

[andar91]

I personally don't think there would be much of one (a point). As you say, we know they have to take the Calling and the Archdemon was killed, so.... I'm being totally honest when I say that I never expected to see my Warden again in future installments (except DLC or expansions). And I don't care. I love my Warden, but her story is over. It's time to move on.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Shinian2 wrote...

I'm not sure what your reply to my post has to do with the price of tea in China..

However, When did anyone say one path is canonical? I certainly didn't.  The only expansion to DAO, Awakenings, was supposed to take into consideration all possible endings. Some were botched, especially the US, which they could have improved with a little imagination at design time. Aside from the bugs, Awakening did not force 'one single path' on you.

Awakening was so botched when it came to continuity that I can't really seriously take it as an example. It was just completely bogus.

It's not really feasable to make a decent-sized sequel where you can play the Warden in one case, or a completely new character if the Warden is dead. It would require to be basically two games, considering the enormous changes from one character to another - or to simply don't bother with all the details, like Awakening did, and in this case the continuity is so badly done that it's better to not have it at all.
Not to talk about how powerful the Warden is in the end, which would make any attempt at balance a nightmare (or an even more ridiculous Monty Haul), nor the problem at having a "new" character that just start as being one of the most powerful man of the world (if you did the US and need to start with a character that is not the Warden).
And of course there is the problem of voicing over, which just kills the whole idea of importing all the six different combinations possible from the first game.

And anyway, DA2 has a different main hero, so your choices, while being carried forward, do not affect Hawke personally. Every ending, including US, should be handled with no difficulty and to everyones satisfaction, ie no one choice being preferred over another.

Yep, I never disagreed on that. It's the most efficient way to include all the endings, in fact, as simple news about the distant Ferelden, allowing for most choices to be taken into account, but not being too influential to inflate excessively the size of the game.

Whether you take Awakening seriously as an example or not, it's still the only continuation of the Wardens story we've got. They tried that in ME2 with the default Shepard. It sucked, no bit charactes showing up at all, like the Novaria Internal Affairs lady, and so on.

Anyway, I agree that it's very difficult to carry over all possible choices from DAO without treating them superficially. You can't really do it justice. It just makes sense to continue the story with another character. It looks like that's been their plan all along too, ie having Nathaniel come from Kirkwall to Awakenings.. He'll appear in DA2 with Hawke.

[MKDAWUSS]

The Edge wrote...

just a quick question: If the Warden in DA:O partook in the Dark Ritual, was the taint removed? If so, does that affect his lifespan any?

I thought that was part of Avernus' research. How to avoid getting (fornicated) by the taint and the calling.

[Danjaru]

Why not give people an option to use their warden again? I mean I know he/she'll only be in some sort of cameo role in DA2 (probably some statue or something lame like that, and talked about indirectly).
But for many people their Wardens story isn't finished. And then there could be another expansion for those people to wrap things up, and for people who did US, use their Orlesian Warden or a brand new one, they still get to play the expansions story.

I don't get why some are pretty much attacking the ones that got attached to a character, and took the options that made their story not complete yet, and want to complete it.

But other than that, I don't think the Warden should be in more games as main PC (Except expansions or dlc). As one man can only do so much. And we saw from Awakenings that your warden is far from being the only one capable of extraordinary feats (talking about the Orlesian warden).

Modifié par Danjaru, 13 août 2010 - 01:07 .

[JamesX]

All Wardens go insane is the same cannon as A Warden must die to kill the Archdemon?





By the latter not being true, the first can also be untrue.

And Avernus was warden for a long long long time, he is yet (somewhat) sane.



There is no compelling reason why you can't play "The Warden" in all sequels. And the reason is not that people hate change. I think it is mainly because, for most people, there are emotional investments you placed into characters you played for so long.

[Akka le Vil]

dheer wrote...

To be able to use an US character you had to undo your decision. I don't see a problem with that at all. It was the player's choice.

That's a perfect example of what I described before : "my choices have to be respected, yours not so much".
You ask for a follow-up of YOUR choices, and cry foul "you don't have to force your choices on me !!!", but at the same time you consider it normal that someone else has to undo his choices or have them ignored, as long as they're not yours, to play a sequel/add-on.
Hypocrisy, again and again.

Modifié par Akka le Vil, 13 août 2010 - 09:06 .

[Akka le Vil]

Shinian2 wrote...

Whether you take Awakening seriously as an example or not, it's still the only continuation of the Wardens story we've got. They tried that in ME2 with the default Shepard. It sucked, no bit charactes showing up at all, like the Novaria Internal Affairs lady, and so on.

Well, ME2 at least gave consistent continuity over your choices in ME1. The "default" Shepard is here only if you didn't use a savegame, so I don't really see the problem.

Anyway, I agree that it's very difficult to carry over all possible choices from DAO without treating them superficially. You can't really do it justice. It just makes sense to continue the story with another character.

Yes, that's also my point.

[BelgianGuy]

Akka le Vil, nobody is forcing anything on you. If your character died in Origins, you can play the Orlesian Warden in Awakening IF YOU WANT. Nobody is holding a gun to your head.
However, you are basically saying they shouldn't make games like Awakening, because your choose, US, is in your eyes not fully respected.

So because YOU made the choice of US, nobody else is allowed to play Awakening (or any other hypothetical Dragon Age game with the same Warden)?

Now, while not every aspect of trolling applies to you, posting an insult with the intent of provoking another user into an emotional response IS trolling.
By calling dheer a hypocrite, you insulted him, also knowing he would respond to it. Luckily, from what I've seen, dheer was very mature about it, and didn't take your troll-bait. He remained calm, and tried to explain his opinion again, giving it in a clear and non-insulting way. However, again, you started claiming he is not entitled to an opinion, calling him immature and ego-centrical, and being a hypocrit yourself by saying HE is throwing dirt, while you're the only one doing that.
(I'm sorry if I sound like a hypocrite: calling trolls trolls can be seen as a trolling act too.)

Now, I understand where you're coming from. Most people want their story to continue, and if that's not possible, have no continuing story at all. And isn't that one of the reasons why they're going with Hawke? Mass Effect 2 showed how hard it is to actually have continuity (although they promised it would be better in Mass Effect 3). Taking another character is a logical and good solution.
I do want my story to be continued. I want to be able to search for Morrigan, or rule next to Allistair, or travel with my beloved Leliana to Orlais,...
I know they won't make that sequel, I understand why. But, sir, that does not mean I'm not allowed to have an opinion or dreams.

[Tirigon]

Faust1979 wrote...

it would be boring to keep playing the wardens story when we know his fate. I say his story is finished

You say so. But my Warden is a Bloodmage and will side with Avernus to stop the taint and see all this Blight-business through. Until the last Archdemon is dead.

It would be nice if I could actually PLAY this, instead of just imagining it.

[Birdieboink]

I'd like to go exploring the Qunari lands with Sten, since that's what I told him I'd go do, and I'd like to take Leliana along for the ride. It's kinda disappointing they give you these choices at the end of the game, but you don't really get to act on them.

I also want to go find Morrigan, because she told me I wouldn't be able to find her. That sounds like a challenge!

Modifié par Birdieboink, 13 août 2010 - 11:04 .

[gotthammer]

Tirigon wrote...

Faust1979 wrote...

it would be boring to keep playing the wardens story when we know his fate. I say his story is finished

You say so. But my Warden is a Bloodmage and will side with Avernus to stop the taint and see all this Blight-business through. Until the last Archdemon is dead.

It would be nice if I could actually PLAY this, instead of just imagining it.

Yeah, I'd rather play through a continuation as well.

It's not also about having an aversion to change, either (DA:O isn't the only game I play, nor is RPG the only 'genre' I play in), it's just that, I guess, there really was an expectation to continue w/ the Warden. And the option to start anew, ala Awakening, was presented for those who took the Ultimate Sacrifice path, so, again, the kinda helped the notion that those of us who didn't have their Warden die will get a continuation.
Hell, maybe if they had killed Shepard (permanently), then maybe said expectation wouldn't be so 'strong'. 

As I've said here before, tho', I may be disappointed, but I'm still getting the game. I'll still be hoping for a continuation of my Warden's story, tho' (DA3? DA4? DA5? DA6: The False Prophet? DA7? DA8? No DAOnline, please  )

[dheer]

Akka le Vil wrote...
my choices have to be respected

The US choice was not ignored or disrespected at all by the developers. That Warden's story is over. There's nowhere to go from there. They sacrificed themselves. They can't continue in Awakening because they're dead and the story is finishished for that character. The End. Finito.

[Itkovian]

Two points:

1- Your Warden has an ending already, or at least a climax: you saved Thedas. Stopped the 5th Blight. You are now numbered amongst the greatest heroes in history.

That was your story. Regardless of whether he/she died in doing so or lived to go on his Calling, stopping the Blight was his major achievement, and anybody would be hard pressed to top that.

2- Your decisions as a warden WILL matter. That's why we get to import our DAO savegame in DA2, even though we're playing a completely different character.

3- Awakenings did not screw the Ultimate Sacrifice ending. In DA2 we will still be able to import the DAO savegame with our choices from there. They are not making Awakenings critical to maintaining the storyline into DA2. So when I play DA2, it will be with my DAO savegame, where my warden died stopping the blight and set Alistair on the throne. And Morrigan is off eating puppies in Orlais somewhere.

So yeah, there is no need to keep going with our Wardens. He's done, and it's time for new heroes.

Itkovian

[MKDAWUSS]

Itkovian wrote...

Two points:
1- Your Warden has an ending already, or at least a climax: you saved Thedas. Stopped the 5th Blight. You are now numbered amongst the greatest heroes in history.
That was your story. Regardless of whether he/she died in doing so or lived to go on his Calling, stopping the Blight was his major achievement, and anybody would be hard pressed to top that.
2- Your decisions as a warden WILL matter. That's why we get to import our DAO savegame in DA2, even though we're playing a completely different character.
3- Awakenings did not screw the Ultimate Sacrifice ending. In DA2 we will still be able to import the DAO savegame with our choices from there. They are not making Awakenings critical to maintaining the storyline into DA2. So when I play DA2, it will be with my DAO savegame, where my warden died stopping the blight and set Alistair on the throne. And Morrigan is off eating puppies in Orlais somewhere.
So yeah, there is no need to keep going with our Wardens. He's done, and it's time for new heroes.
Itkovian

I didn't realize that Anora Cousland's hubby became irrelevant upon taking the throne

[captain.subtle]

NWN1 and NWN2 were both games in the exact same setting (Forgotten realms, Blade coast) and had UNRELATED protagonists.... Did they suck? At role-playing, NO.... Stories were average anyway....