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what would be the point of keeping the Warden in every game?


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#151
Nerevar-as

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BlackyBlack wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

These usually don´t involve leaving several plots the main character is directly involved in unresolved, as DA:O&A did. A proper closure to the possible paths for the Warden would deal with many unhappy people.

What unresolved paths ? He went on living, it doesn't matter what happened afterwards. Just like in EVERY story that has ever existed the EXACT future of the protagonist is never revealed (well except if the protagonist died at the end of that story)

If you're talking about Morrigan devs said they aren't done with her story

Morrigan, Flemeth´s plans which involved reincarnating an OG (wether successful or not), and the Architec schemes (even if killed, he has already supporters) should be dealt with by Grey Wardens.
BTW, LotR said whatever important happened to almost everybody, and not all died;).

#152
Jimmy Fury

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dheer wrote...
You're right, there does need to be a central focus for a new game / expansion. At the end of Awakening no matter our choices before, we disappear and our adventures continue according to the end panels. I don't think you can just throw away a whole expansion's story because some people didn't buy it. There are ways to continue a story that acknowledges what happened before without having to be in the same area or continue all the same plotlines. You might travel to a different land, have a new something to fight and so on.


The end of awakening is open to multiple interpretations. You took it as "a new adventure", I took it as "returned to the epilogue from Origins and went back to the circle", someone else probably took it as "continued the hunt for morrigan"
Your understanding of the vague end-slide is not a substantial basis for an entire game.
Not to mention that for Awakenings to make any sense in-character you had to pick the "rebuild the Order" ending in Origins. That's why some people weren't happy about Awakenings. It took away their post-archdemon-choice.

Completely agreed that it needs to be open to new players. They handled it pretty well in Baldur's Gate II. You can start fresh with a new character and a new story but what happened in the first game still took place.

So can you. For new players there is no "what happened in the first game" so bioware would have to either give you the ability to decide which choices were made (which would probably take 20 minutes and put any sane person off of the game instantly) or make the play a CanonWarden which takes away the new player's control over the character.
Any way you shake it you're asking for something that is essentially 2 different games. 1 for people who played Origins+Awakenings (where your warden always decided to rebuild the Order) and 1 for everyone else. That's not fair to the audience as a whole.

This has been done many times before in other games. They can use a plot device like usual.

There's always room for improvement. I don't see that as any kind of impediment at all. There would still be a cosmetic way to change your character to how you want, etc.

And you've completely ignored everything I said about the new specializations and the rebalance of classes. Those changes to the system would require changes to existing characters. There's no logical reason a warrior would suddenly not be able to use a Bow should they decide to make Archery a Rogue-only skill tree. All those elemental spells you learned? You don't know them anymore because they're now relegated to the Elemental Mage specialization which you haven't learned yet.
You really think these boards wouldn't be burned down by fan-rage if they did that?

The devs went in a different direction with the series. I understand. It's much easier to just start over every few years. I just don't find a tale focused on a location, city or world that continues as engaging as one that follows your adventures.

It wasn't the only logical choice though. They could have continued if they wanted to but chose differently.


No it really was the only logical choice. Your decision to ignore my very detailed arguments does not take away from their soundness.
Dragon Age is about the Age. It always was. You knew that within the first 10 minutes of playing Origins because it was explained to you. The game was not titled "The Warden: Origins". The series is about the age, the events that take place during the age, and the people who are important. What you find engaging is, sorry to say, completely irrelivant to the story Bioware wants to tell.

#153
BlackyBlack

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Nerevar-as wrote...

Morrigan, Flemeth´s plans which involved reincarnating an OG (wether successful or not), and the Architec schemes (even if killed, he has already supporters) should be dealt with by Grey Wardens. .

Those things have NOTHING to do with the Warden having to be protagonist. They could make Sandal a protagonist and still resolve those things.

As we've already seen Flemeth IS back and devs said Morrigan's story isn't done. As for the Architect it will take several decades to have any type of progress

#154
Merced256

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Nerevar-as wrote...

BlackyBlack wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

These usually don´t involve leaving several plots the main character is directly involved in unresolved, as DA:O&A did. A proper closure to the possible paths for the Warden would deal with many unhappy people.

What unresolved paths ? He went on living, it doesn't matter what happened afterwards. Just like in EVERY story that has ever existed the EXACT future of the protagonist is never revealed (well except if the protagonist died at the end of that story)

If you're talking about Morrigan devs said they aren't done with her story

Morrigan, Flemeth´s plans which involved reincarnating an OG (wether successful or not) should be dealt with by Grey Wardens.



Old God =/= Archdemon

Tainted Old God == Archdemon

Leave god baby alone meaine!

#155
Nerevar-as

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ME2 kept Shepard from ME1.

The accessible to new players hurts the story as a whole as it tends to reduce/downplay continuity. At least in DA2 we are going to a place where it won´t matter much what happened in Ferelden.

#156
BlackyBlack

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Nerevar-as wrote...

ME2 kept Shepard from ME1.
The accessible to new players hurts the story as a whole as it tends to reduce/downplay continuity. At least in DA2 we are going to a place where it won´t matter much what happened in Ferelden.

They do that so that they have to do less consequences. It's much easier and less expensive

#157
Nerevar-as

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BlackyBlack wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Morrigan, Flemeth´s plans which involved reincarnating an OG (wether successful or not), and the Architec schemes (even if killed, he has already supporters) should be dealt with by Grey Wardens. .

Those things have NOTHING to do with the Warden having to be protagonist. They could make Sandal a protagonist and still resolve those things.

As we've already seen Flemeth IS back and devs said Morrigan's story isn't done. As for the Architect it will take several decades to have any type of progress

Think your favorite series if you have one. Halfway or 1/3 in the story the main character changes, and several plots he was seriously involved in are resolved by some new guy who hadn´t even been mentioned before.
Besides, I said GW in general, not just the Warden. They should be heavily involved in Blight related stories.

I wonder if reaction would be the same if instead of Hawke we had been told we would be playing the Champion of Kirkwall with no name given until the game. Marketing for Origins was the HNM Warden, but we never heard the Cousland name I think. Also, the focus was more in the story, here is on a character and s/he already feels a Replament Scrappy to many.

Writing team is the same, so I still have hope.

#158
dheer

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Jimmy Fury wrote...
Snip

Your post was not ignored. I thought it was reasonable argument. I just don't agree with all the points you made. It's nothing personal.

Modifié par dheer, 15 août 2010 - 01:57 .


#159
Harcken

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The warden killed the Archdemon. That is the end of your tale. What, do you want a sequel about how he traveled around with Lelianna drinking beer and slaying unruly tavern guests? It's like asking about Luke at the end of Episode VI. Sure, he still has a good 50 years left, but the story is over: he defeated the Empire. Sure, the EU exists, but that's precisely why Star Wars tastes bitter today. Luke slays the Empire, Luke slays blablabla, his babies save the world, his grandbabies save the world. Do you really want your Warden to be the "God of Thedas?"

#160
Nerevar-as

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Harcken wrote...

The warden killed the Archdemon. That is the end of your tale. What, do you want a sequel about how he traveled around with Lelianna drinking beer and slaying unruly tavern guests? It's like asking about Luke at the end of Episode VI. Sure, he still has a good 50 years left, but the story is over: he defeated the Empire. Sure, the EU exists, but that's precisely why Star Wars tastes bitter today. Luke slays the Empire, Luke slays blablabla, his babies save the world, his grandbabies save the world. Do you really want your Warden to be the "God of Thedas?"

I wish those were the problems the Star Wars EU had. So much, much worse:unsure:.  No Sith (in theory) after RotJ, but DS are still a problem that it is there to stay. I do want something about how they address that, rather than wait for the next AD to get corrupted. There are several hints that things are getting more complicated.
But really, do we want every game to be about a different world threatening menace? If DA2 is about the Qunari invasion 2.0 I don´t want a Warden to deal with it.  Maybe they should have let the Blight for the last part of the story.

Anyone knows a fantasy story with this structure? Overarching plot but changing main characters without big timeskips? Not a retorical question, the Silmarillion is the closest I can think of.

Modifié par Nerevar-as, 14 août 2010 - 08:57 .


#161
SgtElias

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Nerevar-as wrote...

Anyone knows a fantasy story with this structure? Overarching plot but changing main characters without big timeskips? Not a retorical question, the Silmarillion is the closest I can think of.


Not that I necessarilly disagree with your view, but to be fair, the Silmarillion had time skips of THOUSANDS of years. Several times. It's the unfortunate side effect of nearly all the main characters for the first 3/4 of the book being elves.

WhatI feel it comes down to is this: Bioware has yet to make a game that I have not been satisfied with. Am I disappointed I won't be able to import my Warden? Yes, of course. Not because I think it'd do the story any favours, but because I simply fell in love with her and I will miss being that characrer. Am I nervous that the art is changing, the race is fixed, the ME2 dialogue wheel is being implemented and now the PC is going to be fully voiced, all changes from a game I considered nearly perfect the way it was? Yep.

But I have yet to be disappointed in any Bioware game, and I know by the end of Dragon Age 2 I'm going to be astounded that I ever cared about these things.

Modifié par SgtElias, 14 août 2010 - 09:48 .


#162
Nerevar-as

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Always a first time for everything. Hope this is not the one for disappointment at BW. They better come up with a real good plot reason you can´t be elf or dwarf. Blasted VO.

#163
SgtElias

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Nerevar-as wrote...

Always a first time for everything. Hope this is not the one for disappointment at BW. They better come up with a real good plot reason you can´t be elf or dwarf. Blasted VO.


True. But until they really, really step in it, I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt. :P