59 réponses à ce sujet

[termokanden]

Yeah, but then you can switch to Disruptor if you really must. I just want all cases covered really.



I usually try very hard to kill YMIR mechs with headshots once their defenses are down. Best DPS you can have is an YMIR that goes "nuclear"

[mcsupersport]

GSB for me is used before the battle starts, and allows me to stay out longer shooting before having my shields drop. The main ammo I use is Inferno, with a secondary of Disruptor. I really don't see the difference in getting around 40% bonus with incendiary and 10% on GSB, or 50% on AP ammo. The GSB for me also means I can pop it when I am about to die and get back into cover if charging with a shotgun or moving positions under very heavy fire. With all the tech cool downs it isn't horrible time delay, usually about the time it takes for my health to recover anyway.



Like someone else said, if you like the power use it. Personally I don't like any active power in Soldiers, Infiltrators and Vanguards that take away from their main power use. To me GSB is a passive power, pop once and for the next 55 seconds you get almost double shields, and 10% more damage, while having full access to your main money talent.



Reeve is a great power, BUT on a soldier it takes away from Arush, and that I don't like. Energy Drain is also nice, but again, the cool down takes away from Arush, so I don't like it. Another ammo power just means I have to change up again, and to me that really is annoying, I would rather just pop a power that gives me the 10% bonus and keep using the general Ammo I started the mission with.



Total play style decision for anyone who uses powers but it is how I play.

[ezrafetch]

Athenau wrote...

I've never been impressed with the shield powers. Locking down your adrenaline rush cooldown for that long is a bad idea 100% of the time.

Fixed.

I find that the shield abilities are subpar on Soldiers: it's not even really that the long cooldown is there (can be mitigated somewhat by upgrades, to about 8s I believe), but it's that the shield doesn't even last that long. You're going to take fire either way, and especially on Insanity, it's going to get blown off quickly (especially if you "take advantage" of the extra shield to stay out longer).  To use it to "start" a battle would seem to defeat the purpose of taking it as a bonus power, in my opinion, if you're going to be using it so sparingly...the efficacy of the ability is rather lacking in comparison to a host of other abilities you could take. You're better off with a global teammate powerup (i.e. Squad Warp), a powerup for yourself (Tungsten) or running mild CC abilities (Slam/Neural Shock) that don't get too terribly in the way of Adrenaline Rush.

Suppose it's mostly my playstyle preference. Adrenaline Rush is so stacked anyways, to try to increase the "defensive" prowess on the most "offensive" class in the game seems rather counter-productive.  Soldiers don't need bonus powers, regardless; since they're so good at the moment, my discourse might really be moot.

Modifié par ezrafetch, 17 août 2010 - 02:30 .

[termokanden]

Though I doubt its usefulness myself, it's not really useless. If you know you are going into battle and you can activate a shield beforehand, that's a small buff. If you're in trouble, you can use it too. That's worth something. We wouldn't really be considering this for a soldier if it wasn't because soldiers already have 3 ammo powers and don't really benefit from activated powers such as Reave.

It's definitely not useless.

Still I can't see myself putting 9 extra points into it.

Fortification, on the other hand, is the epitome of awfulness. It's simply worse than Barrier and GSB because it's a combat power. If you chose this for your character, touch your forehead with your palm in a forceful fashion and go pay for Advanced Training.

Modifié par termokanden, 17 août 2010 - 02:38 .

[mcsupersport]

ezrafetch wrote...

Athenau wrote...

I've never been impressed with the shield powers. Locking down your adrenaline rush cooldown for that long is a bad idea 100% of the time.

Fixed.

I find that the shield abilities are subpar on Soldiers: it's not even really that the long cooldown is there (can be mitigated somewhat by upgrades, to about 8s I believe), but it's that the shield doesn't even last that long. You're going to take fire either way, and especially on Insanity, it's going to get blown off quickly (especially if you "take advantage" of the extra shield to stay out longer).  To use it to "start" a battle would seem to defeat the purpose of taking it as a bonus power, in my opinion, if you're going to be using it so sparingly...the efficacy of the ability is rather lacking in comparison to a host of other abilities you could take. You're better off with a global teammate powerup (i.e. Squad Warp), a powerup for yourself (Tungsten) or running mild CC abilities (Slam/Neural Shock) that don't get too terribly in the way of Adrenaline Rush.

Suppose it's mostly my playstyle preference. Adrenaline Rush is so stacked anyways, to try to increase the "defensive" prowess on the most "offensive" class in the game seems rather counter-productive.  Soldiers don't need bonus powers, regardless; since they're so good at the moment, my discourse might really be moot.

Please also remember this is a Widow/Mattock soldier, so mostly it is pop up, blast, and pop back into cover when sniping.  The GSB is nice in that is doesn't effect Arush cool down past the intial use and lasts over a minute with upgrades.  I hate the idea of using any active power(slam/reave/Neural shock/etc) because a better use in my opinion is a blast from a SG or AR at close range under Arush is MUCH better.  For a soldier NOTHING should get in the way of his MONEY power ARush.  Tungsten is good, but I would rather have the bonus to everything at 10% and use inferno ammo for splash dmg, and not have to switch ammo types during combat.  

This is mostly a play style argument, and there is no RIGHT way, but this is the way that works for me and how I think a soldier should be used.  I really don't see the point of having another ammo type for soldier when they already have three, one adds damage to armor, one freezes, and one kills mechs and overheats guns, so I really don't see how another adds much to the class.  For squad, I have found squad disruptor to be nice for the overheating guns and quick shield stripping by everyone, plus the bonus to mech is awesome.

[Athenau]

I just tried GSB again to see if my initial impressions were correct, and...yeah, it's pretty bad. That fact that

a. You have to refresh it every 60 seconds

b. It has a 9 second cooldown even with upgrades



just sucks. You say refresh it at the beginning of every fight, but that's still because that's 9 seconds where you have no arush, which is terrible in short fights. And in long fights it's probably going to go down anyway, so there goes your buff.

[IMNWME]

Athenau wrote...

I just tried GSB again to see if my initial impressions were correct, and...yeah, it's pretty bad. That fact that
a. You have to refresh it every 60 seconds
b. It has a 9 second cooldown even with upgrades

just sucks. You say refresh it at the beginning of every fight, but that's still because that's 9 seconds where you have no arush, which is terrible in short fights. And in long fights it's probably going to go down anyway, so there goes your buff.

Agreed.  I run GSB 1 until I get Medi-Gel upgrades, after which I switch to Neural Shock/Slam/Flashbang Grenade.  I love Slam 1 as a bonus power, just because it's such an efficient buy, has great utility (Warp detonation and CC that affects every enemy), and it only has a 3 sec cool-down.

Really, the shield powers only shine on classes that have cool-down bonuses.  I run Heavy Barrier on my Adept, and Improved GSB on my CQC Infiltrator (who needs it sometimes after a cloaked backstab turns into a firefight).  Otherwise, I generally avoid them like the plague except early-game before Medi-Gel turns into an instant shield/health refresh.

[ezrafetch]

mcsupersport wrote...

Please also remember this is a Widow/Mattock soldier, so mostly it is pop up, blast, and pop back into cover when sniping.  The GSB is nice in that is doesn't effect Arush cool down past the intial use and lasts over a minute with upgrades.  I hate the idea of using any active power(slam/reave/Neural shock/etc) because a better use in my opinion is a blast from a SG or AR at close range under Arush is MUCH better.  For a soldier NOTHING should get in the way of his MONEY power ARush.  Tungsten is good, but I would rather have the bonus to everything at 10% and use inferno ammo for splash dmg, and not have to switch ammo types during combat. 

I only play Soldiers now, and really only the Widow Soldier (I liked it enough to construct a Widow Soldier guide...).  As others noted, GSB activation at the start of the fight means probably 2 missed cycles of Adrenaline Rush (3s AR, 3s cooldown, 3s AR again, which is the 9s for the GSB cooldown), which definitely means you're off-pace by a kill, at least:

1. Pop first AR, one guaranteed kill
2. Cooldown on first AR, maybe another kill
3. Pop second AR, another guaranteed kill.

With GSB, you're taking three non-AR shots, which means you're probably lucky to end up with two kills...you may only even get one kill, which puts you down two kills from straight AR activations into shooting.  The other thing to note is "effective" length of GSB when you're popping up to shoot.  Unless you're going to sit out the 9s cooldown (in that case, you're definitely down two to three kills, you will have to pop up to fire your shots, so your shield will drop anyways.  Because of this, your "effective" length of GSB will be much shorter, and its value drops a lot.  Especially since you don't want to activate it in the middle of a fight, which would just drop your killspeed even more.

Also, personally I run Inferno Ammo, but certainly another effecive combination is Tungsten+Squad Incendiary if you're looking for another viable loadout.

This is mostly a play style argument, and there is no RIGHT way, but this is the way that works for me and how I think a soldier should be used.  I really don't see the point of having another ammo type for soldier when they already have three, one adds damage to armor, one freezes, and one kills mechs and overheats guns, so I really don't see how another adds much to the class.  For squad, I have found squad disruptor to be nice for the overheating guns and quick shield stripping by everyone, plus the bonus to mech is awesome.

I am not the biggest fan of Cryo; I personally prefer Squad Warp for sheer killing power, but my other suggestions work just as well.  I actually probably value Tungsten+Squad Incendiary over Inferno+Squad Cryo, but they're probably about equal (Squad Cryo definitely has the edge vs. Husks, but in regular firefights I find it less than efficient).  I also don't see the need for active powers outside of AR, so the natural solution is to take an ammo power.  I'm a sucker for Inferno, so I always just pick up Squad Warp, as it makes Collector missions far too easy.  While there may be no "right" way, there are efficient ways and inefficient ways to runs Widow Soldiers: I just happen to think GSB is one of the more inefficient ways.

Modifié par ezrafetch, 17 août 2010 - 06:04 .

[Kronner]

I do not use medigel, so for me GSB is omfg save me button, I use it only a few times each playthrough, but I only have one point in it anyways. (nowhere else to put the point - CS sucks)

[mcsupersport]

ezrafetch wrote...



I only play Soldiers now, and really only the Widow Soldier (I liked it enough to construct a Widow Soldier guide...).  As others noted, GSB activation at the start of the fight means probably 2 missed cycles of Adrenaline Rush (3s AR, 3s cooldown, 3s AR again, which is the 9s for the GSB cooldown), which definitely means you're off-pace by a kill, at least:

1. Pop first AR, one guaranteed kill
2. Cooldown on first AR, maybe another kill
3. Pop second AR, another guaranteed kill.

With GSB, you're taking three non-AR shots, which means you're probably lucky to end up with two kills...you may only even get one kill, which puts you down two kills from straight AR activations into shooting.  The other thing to note is "effective" length of GSB when you're popping up to shoot.  Unless you're going to sit out the 9s cooldown (in that case, you're definitely down two to three kills, you will have to pop up to fire your shots, so your shield will drop anyways.  Because of this, your "effective" length of GSB will be much shorter, and its value drops a lot.  Especially since you don't want to activate it in the middle of a fight, which would just drop your killspeed even more.

Also, personally I run Inferno Ammo, but certainly another effecive combination is Tungsten+Squad Incendiary if you're looking for another viable loadout.

That is NOT the way to use GSB, sheesh.....know your levels know your fights.  With full upgrades GSB last 72 seconds, if I am not mistaken, that is 60 seconds base and 12 seconds for tech upgrade +20% duration.  So know your levels, pop and keep GSB on all the time when moving.   Fully upgraded you should have a 9 second recharge.  With GSB up move into the fight area and get to cover, some damage will be taken but no sweat the shield will hold and regin, get your companions set and pop ARush first kill, minor damge to shields, maybe wait out shield regin, but more likely just repop Arush when available and make another kill.  With the Widow and half way decent firing time your GSB should last most of the duration or the first 45 seconds of the fight.  This means you should have 6-7 shots by sniper rifle in full Arush in that time or 6-7 kills.  GSB and Inferno give the same bonus to damage that Tungsten does, and allows you to have the Oh Sh!!!!!!!! factor covered when an enemy flanks you without you realizing or you get more damaged than you like during a move.  Yeah, you can pop med kits, but GSB is unlimited, while Med kits are not.  Now when you consider GSB and ARifles, it helps even more, because you can stay up longer, but just make sure not too long and therefore doing more damage.

Again, you can number crunch all you like, but FOR ME I die less with it, and clear levels easier, so FOR ME it works better and TO ME fits better with the class.  I usually like to keep all my med kits so I can make sure my companions are still with me and doing damage, so for me GSB works well, and is highly efficient.

[termokanden]

Yeah I didn't mean to start a crusade agains GSB. I actually made the same point that you can use it BEFORE the fight instead of during. This is a small boost that doesn't hurt your DPS. Considering how little use the soldier has for bonus talents, it hardly matters what you take anyway.



I was pretty much just asking to get an idea of how long it actually lasts on insanity.

[ezrafetch]

mcsupersport wrote...

That is NOT the way to use GSB,
sheesh.....know your levels know your fights.  With full upgrades GSB
last 72 seconds, if I am not mistaken, that is 60 seconds base and 12
seconds for tech upgrade +20% duration.  So know your levels, pop and
keep GSB on all the time when moving.   Fully upgraded you should have a
9 second recharge.  With GSB up move into the fight area and get to
cover, some damage will be taken but no sweat the shield will hold and
regin, get your companions set and pop ARush first kill, minor damge to
shields, maybe wait out shield regin, but more likely just repop Arush
when available and make another kill.  With the Widow and half way
decent firing time your GSB should last most of the duration or the
first 45 seconds of the fight.  This means you should have 6-7 shots by
sniper rifle in full Arush in that time or 6-7 kills.  GSB and Inferno
give the same bonus to damage that Tungsten does, and allows you to have
the Oh Sh!!!!!!!! factor covered when an enemy flanks you without you
realizing or you get more damaged than you like during a move.  Yeah,
you can pop med kits, but GSB is unlimited, while Med kits are not.  Now
when you consider GSB and ARifles, it helps even more, because you can
stay up longer, but just make sure not too long and therefore doing more
damage.

Again, you can number crunch all you like, but FOR ME I
die less with it, and clear levels easier, so FOR ME it works better and
TO ME fits better with the class.  I usually like to keep all my med
kits so I can make sure my companions are still with me and doing
damage, so for me GSB works well, and is highly efficient.

This is just a discussion about GSB.  No need to sweat.  I have my own opinion, you have yours.  I like discussion, it's healthy.  If you like GSB, then run it.  There are literally ZERO ways to make a terrible Soldier, so you don't have anything to worry about.  That being said...
 
The longer you activate GSB before a fight, the more time you waste of its duration.  The closer you activate GSB to a fight, the less time you're able to contribute pure DPS via AR.  The issue is more that unless you activate GSB far enough away from combat, you're losing DPS and kill count.  Obviously, once cooldown is over we can assume that the Soldier with GSB and without it have equal DPS numbers.  It's that first nine (or less seconds, depending on activation) that matter.  If you activate it wayyyy before, then you're just losing duration, which is OK, but it seems to be subpar to not really use it as it probably should be.  As a note, since there is no noticeable damage difference between Tungsten and Inferno (+10%), my natural guess is that Inferno+GSB has no noticeable damage upgrade over just Inferno.  So the damage boost from GSB is a little...wasted.

Even in combat, if you promote the "AR-out of cover for Widow shot-straight into cover again," you're spending so little "game time" out of cover that regardless of GSB or no, you're not spending enough time out of cover (and thus taking fire) to make it entirely useful.  In AR (and sometimes out of AR), you get hit by less than five bullets if you're sniping smart, which won't even take down GSB-less shields, so GSB then is less useful.  Cooldown is usually enough to regenerate any shield dropped by that few of bullets.

Also, why not just pop AR instead of GSB when you're maneuvering?  I think you're likely going to take less damage moving under AR than you will maneuvering under GSB.  The time dilation ensures bullets don't hit you (and you get a damage bonus to boot if you get to your new spot quick enough and get a shot off).  GSB allows you to absorb more bullets, but being in real time means you're being slammed by tons of bullets, which can sometimes mean a wasted GSB activation and losing DPS/kills since you have to wait out the cooldown.  If you strategize well you eliminate the flank before it becomes a problem, so I find GSB to be a lackluster safety button (know your levels, know your fights...).  Especially since Medigel has such a short cooldown.  You get eight Medigel, it's impossible to burn through it all (thus not having enough for teammates) unless you're being outrageously reckless or stupid.  You can get back into AR almost immediately after a Medigel...not so for GSB.

I think you're mixing up survivability and efficiency (at least the way I use it).  GSB is OK for survivability, but I don't think applying it in that way is an efficient approach to using the Soldier.  Efficiency means maximizing kills/second (with the Widow, DPS is an admittedly...lackluster measure), shortening the length of a fight as much as possible.  Of course, maybe that means I utilize a glass cannon approach, which most definitely doesn't work well for some.  I also think Soldiers don't have survivability issues without GSB (not much of a glass cannon, then), but that's me.

Modifié par ezrafetch, 17 août 2010 - 05:51 .

[termokanden]

I don't know about you, but by now I know when I'm going to get hit or ambushed. Doesn't really come as a surprise anymore. Therefore I don't need to move under AR to avoid getting hit. I could also time GSB so it's still good in the fight without interfering with AR.



That said, it is only a very small boost unless you reactivate it in the fight.

[ezrafetch]

termokanden wrote...

I don't know about you, but by now I know when I'm going to get hit or ambushed. Doesn't really come as a surprise anymore. Therefore I don't need to move under AR to avoid getting hit. I could also time GSB so it's still good in the fight without interfering with AR.

That said, it is only a very small boost unless you reactivate it in the fight.

Oh, I never use AR defensively, unless it seriously means the difference between life and death.  I've only used it defensively three or four times to move back and reset, and that's because I usually got way too aggressive and pushed up too far under a previous AR.  AR is not only a damage booster for guns: it's a sick way to move around quickly and flank enemies and shorten up fights a bunch.  You're still taking a ton of bullets establishing a flank under GSB since, well, you can't outrun the bullets.  With AR you can usually avoid bullets establishing a flank because you can outrun the bullets (and as I said get a nice damage bonus on a shot if you can get it off).  That's what I mean.

[termokanden]

I don't seem to be getting the message across. I agree on using it IN THE FIGHT. But if you know you will be coming around the corner to some enemies in 10 seconds, time GSB and use it. When you are around the corner, you have a small one-time boost. All I'm saying.



Other than that, I'd only use it if I had no medkits left.

[Skyblade012]

termokanden wrote...

I don't seem to be getting the message across. I agree on using it IN THE FIGHT. But if you know you will be coming around the corner to some enemies in 10 seconds, time GSB and use it. When you are around the corner, you have a small one-time boost. All I'm saying.

Other than that, I'd only use it if I had no medkits left.

Yes, for a small, one-time boost, it is really nice.

But since most of the other good powers work out as a large, constant boost, they overpower the GSB.  Just my view on things.

[termokanden]

But you already have 3 ammo powers as soldier

[Skyblade012]

termokanden wrote...

But you already have 3 ammo powers as soldier

Soldiers make good use of Ammo Powers.  Squad Cryo is awesome.  Disruptor is fun for the stuns and explosions against mechs, but not that good against shields.  Inferno is ok for stopping health regen.

But, really, Soldiers are all about the firepower.  Tungsten Ammo is a huge boost to their weapons, and can be used alongside your Adrenaline Rush to just let you blast things.  Soldiers have so many ammo powers because ammo powers work really, really well on the Soldier.

[termokanden]

I know, just saying I can understand one point in GSB if you are always using Squad Cryo. Don't need a bonus ammo power then.

[Gumbeaux Jr]

I have to say that the Widow soldier with the Mattock is the deadliest combo in the game. I absolutely burned through Insanity with my fastest run. I am going to try NG+, but have a feeling it will feel a little redundant and unnecessary. I like to play tactically though. My Adept is learning to really appreciate ammo powers, and I think I am going to have to respec to pick one up. Luckily, I only have to rip through defenses.

[Alamar2078]

I just started my NG+ and I'm running an experiment. I've got both a Revvy Soldier && Widow Soldier and I'm going to look at # of deaths, time to complete, etc. So far the Revvy Soldier is having a little harder time but I imagine that's to be expected.



Note: Even in NG+ I'm not having a problem with Mattock Ammo. The Widow is effectively smacking down "goons" and would easily 2-shot Krogan and similar tougher enemies before they have a hope of doing anything bad to you.

[JaegerBane]

Skyblade012 wrote...
Soldiers have so many ammo powers because ammo powers work really, really well on the Soldier.

The cynical viewpoint would be that soldiers have so many ammo powers because any other type of power wouldn't compete with AR. Look what happened to Concussive

[termokanden]

Alamar2078 wrote...

I just started my NG+ and I'm running an experiment. I've got both a Revvy Soldier && Widow Soldier and I'm going to look at # of deaths, time to complete, etc. So far the Revvy Soldier is having a little harder time but I imagine that's to be expected.

Usually your playthroughs improve over time. Just remember to take that into account.

Also remember to give the Revenant a decent chance. It's less trivial to use correctly than other weapons. You can gimp your DPS if you don't know how to compensate for recoil, although most of the time you should be using it in AR.

My personall *guess* is that a soldier using mainly the Mattock will be slightly faster than one using mainly the Revenant, whereas a soldier using the Widow will be slower than both. The Widow is good and fun, but it's slow and doesn't make the best use of AR.

Modifié par termokanden, 18 août 2010 - 09:28 .

[Alamar2078]

termokanden wrote...

Alamar2078 wrote...

I just started my NG+ and I'm running an experiment. I've got both a Revvy Soldier && Widow Soldier and I'm going to look at # of deaths, time to complete, etc. So far the Revvy Soldier is having a little harder time but I imagine that's to be expected.

Usually your playthroughs improve over time. Just remember to take that into account.

Also remember to give the Revenant a decent chance. It's less trivial to use correctly than other weapons. You can gimp your DPS if you don't know how to compensate for recoil, although most of the time you should be using it in AR.

My personall *guess* is that a soldier using mainly the Mattock will be slightly faster than one using mainly the Revenant, whereas a soldier using the Widow will be slower than both. The Widow is good and fun, but it's slow and doesn't make the best use of AR.

I'm trying to take into account that the 2nd playthrough will be more efficient in time & strategy.  I'm trying to account for that by alternating one version of my soldier on a mission by mission basis to try to even this effect out.

As for the Revvy I think I can adjust for recoil well enough.  My problem is that you also have to position yourself to take advantage of the Revvy.  Before the Accurracy Upgrade [IMHO] it's hard to use effectively at longer ranges.  IMHO you're better off using a lot of your other weapons and go to Revvy once the enemies get close enough.

Note:  I try to shoot the Revvy as much as I can in AR as it does help.  I duck into cover, reload, move, etc. on an as needed basis.

So far the time trials aren't showing the differences that I would expect.  It feels like my Widow / Mattock soldier kills much faster but so far I'm only seeing a 5% kill speed difference which isn't what I'd have thought at all.

[termokanden]

The Revenant IS pretty bad before the accuracy upgrade. No doubt about that. After that though it starts being useful