102 réponses à ce sujet

[scotchtape622]

I love how smud has dumped so much time into a game that he hates so much

[BlackyBlack]

I can't believe some people waste so much time doing stuff like this ...

Serously snotboy, don't you have a life? Don't you have something better to do?

Modifié par BlackyBlack, 13 août 2010 - 10:09 .

[Torhagen]

Xrissie wrote...

This happens quite often. so I've learned from my time lurking here.

Some people sure put alot of effort in explaining how much they dislike ME2.

i dont believe he really hates ME2 he is just disapointed i think.
and some of the things he points in his video make a lot of sense

Modifié par Torhagen, 13 août 2010 - 10:06 .

[bjdbwea]

Torhagen wrote...

i dont believe he really hates ME2 he is just disapointed i think.
and some of the things he points in his video make a lot of sense

Indeed. Do you ME 2 apologists brush off any criticism as "hate" in real life too? Do you not think that criticism is sometimes needed to improve something? The author of these videos put a lot of work and thought into this. And even the professional writers at BioWare would do themselves a favor by watching it. Unfortunately, the so-called professional reviewers apparently don't see it as part of their job anymore to point out these things like smudboy did.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 13 août 2010 - 10:18 .

[Chignon]

Thank you for taking the time to make these videos. I don't agree with everything you said, but you had quite a few good points.

I wish people would take the time to actually listen to what he's saying and then decide whether they like it or not and why, instead of complaining about his voice or him making the videos.

Modifié par Chignon, 13 août 2010 - 10:28 .

[LiquidGrape]

Some of these analyses were terribly reductionist and shallow.
The Jack/Miranda/Tali ones were particularly jarring. Not only did they more than imply a rather problematic view of femininity, but the notion that out of the three the former is the least credible one is absurd.

You also went on to great lengths about Jack's tattoos, describing them as little more than an annoyance because you weren't free to expose the inherent meaning of them at leisure.
Is ambiguity that foreign a concept? Must each separate aspect of a character be disembodied and scrutinised in order to serve a purpose?
I'm not saying it wouldn't make for an interesting addition to her arc, but I'm saying it's not relevant until later in that relationship. This is still her first appearance. Give the girl some time to settle in before you bring that whiteboard and marker.
If anything, I was hoping you'd address the borderline hero-worship permeating Tali's romance, but no such luck.

I think the marketing introduction to the Tali video speaks volumes.

"[...] What you see is what you get".

Thank you for personally summarising the fundamental issue with your method.

The one thing I'll say for all this?
At least you eventually gave up the horrible lounge music in the background.

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 13 août 2010 - 12:10 .

[Fiery Phoenix]

I actually went through every singe one of those videos and I must say I enjoyed them, although I don't agree with everything. For what it's worth, Smud, thank you for taking the time to make these videos and post them up for us.

[TK Dude]

The ME2 apologists really don't know that criticism is needed to improve the game.

I don't agree with everything smudboy says in the videos, but he makes some good points about the characters.

He's just dissapointed with ME2, he doesn't hate it.

[Fraevar]

I have to agree with TK Dude here. Smudboy never defaults to blind hate, he points out what he thinks are flawed elements and backs them up with fact to support them. You might not agree with his analysis but don't chalk this up to any kind of blind rage. If anything, blindly apologizing for BioWare when they drop the ball is just as counter-productive.

Modifié par Delerius_Jedi, 13 août 2010 - 11:16 .

[Fiery Phoenix]

It's called constructive criticism.

[Jonathan Shepard]

iakus wrote...

So much hate for Smudboy.

But any disagreement on anything in particular in the videos? I'm still working through them, but a whole lot of it makes sense. A few nitpicky bits I question, but so far so good.

Same here. I also appreciate the music level being lowered so I can hear smudboy clearly. But, like quoted, every point is an honest observation with merit, and though not necessarily a critical error to the character, they do add up (particularly in Jacob's case).

[FlyinElk212]

Wow, 16 vids Smuddy? You've outdone yourself this time.

Gimmee a few minutes to sort through these and actually post an intelligent response instead of just mindless bashing.

[CShep25]

I don't care what anybody says; I love Smudboy's videos. But then I am a fan of Charlie Brooker and Smudboy does occasionally make the witty remark.

[SmokePants]

Interesting points and analysis. Though I recognize the issues you were having, I tend to excuse most of them. I fault Jacob's mission for its wonky timeline of events, but not for the thermal clips and mechs.

Next time you do something like this, try to make the organization and format more transparent. Write a single, concise essay on each character, keeping in mind the points you want to make. Try to avoid the "Grocery List."

Modifié par SmokePants, 13 août 2010 - 02:43 .

[Throw_this_away]

TK Dude wrote...

The ME2 apologists really don't know that criticism is needed to improve the game.
I don't agree with everything smudboy says in the videos, but he makes some good points about the characters.
He's just dissapointed with ME2, he doesn't hate it.

If you like something it does not mean you are an apologist.  Just like people who criticise do not hate something.  

Criticism does little to improve a game.  Suggestions for improvment do help.

My problem with excessive criticism is that it is too easy.  It is easy to nit-pick apart movies/games/etc, and picking apart people's actions in daily life is easier still (humans do stupid things by definition).  But It eventually just becomes intellectual masturbation.  Sure it is fun, but it won't get you far. 

Creating something new and unique... now that is HARD.  And for some people, apprecieating something for it's merits seems near impossible.  It is also easy to fail to see the forrest through the trees.  At least good game reviews will review a game, as a game, on multiple levels.  If you start reviewing the plot of games as if it were a novel, you are a critic in the wrong business.  Of course it will be falwed, critics win hands down.  It is like a 20 year old picking on a 5 year old.  Whatever makes you feel superior...

As a glass half full kind of guy, I would say that the very fact that people critique the ME2 story/plot to the level they do suggest that it is a remarkable piece of work.  No one ever criticized the true intent of a koopa, and it's reason for loyalty to Bowser in Super Mario. (Que link...). 

Is there room for improvment... sure there is.  But the critics that I respect are the ones that look at the entire package... not just graphics, not just gameplay, not just plot. 

All the critical intellectualization in the world can be summarized into one simple question... "was it fun"?  


 

Modifié par Throw_this_away, 13 août 2010 - 04:16 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Wachting the videos now. I liked your plot analysis enough (well aside from the poor jokes).



PS: Your right on the spot with Shepard and Harbinger.

[FlyinElk212]

Alright, here I go--

1. Jacob- Pretty solid analysis here. A bland character filled with contradictions and little to no development. His loyalty mission did nothing for his character, as the mission was one of those loyalty missions where the character had no influence or part of it. The most frustrating part about him, as you point out, is his insistance on not opening up to Shepard. While it may make him more realistic, it gives the audience little material to truly connect with Jacob on. This should be videogaming 101-why create a character that so few people can connect with? It's like they were setting up Jacob to fail.
***Your comparison of Jacob's development arc to Miranda's is actually quite eye opening. I've never thought about it before, but your right: they have opposing developments. They did Miranda's development the right way, but Jacob's, once again, lead to an audience disconnect with his character.

2. Mordin- Pretty well done character, as you picked up on. Great loyalty mission, great plot integration, great motivations; overall just a great character. I agree with the gripes that his recruitment mission detailed a Collector-Vorcha pact that didn't go anywhere. *Takes deep breath* Disappointing.

3. Jack- I would say that she was intentionally written to be the most emotionally complex and confusing character. Heck, she's had a messed up childhood--that can onlny lead to a messed up personality. While I do agree that her "combat attire" is laughable, I believe her confusing tattoo apparrel only highlights her character. I didn't mind not being able to see what's on them because quite frankly, I wasn't able to see what's on Jack's mind half of the time. I believe her looks were to be an extension of her personality, not a detailed manuscript of her past. 
***I also believe that, in one-fell swoop, Jack is the most polarizing AND emotionally appealing character. While I agree that Shepard's desire for romance for Jack makes no sense, when you get into it, you see the different shades of her character. No longer is she just an unfeeling bad-ass-- she's a confused little girl who can't let go of her past. In that sense, I love her character. I also believe she's Bioware at their best. I just wish they could've integrated her importance into the story better, as well as explain TIM's intentions with recruiting her more realistically.

4. Samara- An intriguing romantic partner with a pleasing character arc and a buttload of unreasonable actions. That sounds about right. There were so many times in BOTH Samara's recruitment and loyalty mission where I thought to myself, "Wait, why doesn't Shepard/Samara just do __________ ?" If Bioware thought that the justification for their Justicar's actions were that it's an Asari thing that humans can't really comprehend, then that is a weak cop-out for what should be proper exposition. Finally, since they didn't show in the cutscene that Morinth was clearly superior in power to Samara, the decision to choose between the two was doomed to nonsensicality from the start.
***She's also seemingly plot irrelevant, but I do give Bioware props for her romance. It was an interesting twist to the rest of the romances, and perhaps the most believable of them all.

5. Legion- You could've gotten by with just the first frame of this review (the picture of Data from ST:TNG) and that would've summarized Legion pretty nicely. He has undertones of an innate desire to "become more human", shown by his affinity to Shepard in patching up the hole with his armor, and his talk about the random experiments done on various races to record free-will response. His introductional integration to the story was very well done (akin to that of ME1's Ashley/Tali/Liara, which was well done/nice).

6. Miranda- Stated earlier, but Jacob's character developed the wrong way, while Miranda's character developed the right way. I am with you in that I wish she were more hesitant about giving command over to Shepard--I wanted her to be colder like she was in the beginning for a much longer period of time in the game (it would've given Shepard a squadmate that wasn't trusting of him initially--very cool for uniqueness).
***Her loyalty mission, in my opinion, was one of the best in the game, and I only wish that the conclusion to that mission could have been played up better in her fight against Jack. That way, her side of the argument could've been more sympathetic and less ****y.

7/8. Garrus & Tali- I placed the two of them together because I feel like they're two peas of the same pod. I wanted to point out that I believe both character were MUCH better than they were in game 1, particularly Tali, and that I really did care for them both equally. They make the most sense to rejoin your squad and really have interesting developments (Garrus's Space-Batman complex and Tali becoming a leader of her Quarian people). I believe that trying to "acquire their loyalty" after ME1 is a little ridiculous, but then again, so is the concept of loyalty itself.
***Garrus needs more dialogue. The Calibrations meme is nice, but I feel like of all characters, he got the shaft on content
***Tali's loyalty mission is the perfect example of why the Paragon/Renegade system sucks. I wish we would have to make a hard choice (get Tali exiled for her loyalty, or screw her loyalty to keep her with her people) instead of having FREE-PASS cards with the left-wheel options.

9. Zaeed- Yeah he's a badass. Kinda the closest thing we get to a reasonable badguy on our team (not counting Morinth because she's an unreasonable recruit). I agree that he's a recruit that makes so much more sense than some of the other recruits. As little content as he gets, he has more character development than most of the other crewmates here (provided you take the Paragon path in his mission). Sort of useful in the suicide mission, but what would've been AMAZING is if he became a successful 2nd team leader if you Paragon-ed him in his loyalty mish.
***Though again, the Paragon option of saving the colonists and keeping Zaeed's loyalty...kind of blows. What happened to making difficult choices?

10. Thane- I wish he had a point...he doesn't even have a role in the suicide mish. It makes me wonder if perhaps a leg of the suicide mission was cut due to time constraints.

11. Kasumi- The reasoning for why she's recruited makes no sense. Even though we ARE recruiting the best of the best, and technically she's the "best" thief, I also don't see why we need a thief. But I do believe that this character was a breath of fresh air from the others, simply due to her demeanor and personality. She doesn't play up how much of a badass she is like the others, and is playful and comical, and serves well as your gossip girl/ go-to girlfriend for female Sheps.
***Arguably has the best move in her Sneak Strike. That alone almost makes the rest worth it. I'm also willing to give her some storyline integrational slack since she's DLC.

12. Grunt- He's not Wrex. That alone was enough to doom his character.

[Xeranx]

ExtremeOne wrote...

yeah a game with a bunch of babysitting and dealing with a couple of ones that are either made out to be racist. or just ones with a deep hatred for others in the game. so no this game does not have the best characters as far as story goes but Miranda is a very strong female in this game other games need to look at that

I disagree with the bolded part.  Miranda is complicated to talk about which makes me think Jacob's statement about her needing a better man than him makes sense.  Taking everything into account Miranda's show of strength is about half as much as she puts out there.  She's too insecure about everything she is and it might (if not actually does) have something to do with knowing that she was made instead of born.  She's strong when it has to deal with her sister and knowing how she grew up, but taking her sister away from her father is the only real accomplisment she really has which strikes me of being a result of what she is and not who she is.

Obviously Miranda relishes her place in Cerberus and overseer on a ressurrection project sounds much better than being Shepard's liaison to the Illusive Man, but she didn't exactly earn it.  Why I say that is when her looks and biotics are of an advantage to her she's fine, but once those aspects of her have served their purpose she isn't really much of anything after that.  She tends to be more of that eager to please mentality.  That bit I got from her statement if she's not chosen to lead the second fire team on the suicide mission.  The disappointment drips heavily from her lips.

Miranda mirrors bits of Ashley who I feel is much stronger than Miranda in terms of fighting the crowd that would rather have her sit down and shut up.  Ashley is like Miranda in that she feels she has something to prove, but the difference is she will go to great lengths to do so.  Where Miranda would use her looks or intimidation Ashley would step forward and use whatever is at her disposal.

Really, to simplify it I would ask what people would think if Miranda and Ashley were men instead of women  A man in Miranda's position doing what Miranda does would not be viewed as a strong and confident male whereas a man in Ashley's position doing what Ashley does would be greatly respected for what he does.

Modifié par Xeranx, 13 août 2010 - 04:50 .

[Fiannawolf]

Ahh, Just finished the Jacob one. Yea, my feelings exactly on his romance w/ femshep.

[tonnactus]

TK Dude wrote...

The ME2 apologists really don't know that criticism is needed to improve the game.

Seriously,some people in this thread remind me of the apple fanboys who defend everything this company does.

To smudboy: Shepardt couldnt/shouldnt(why ****** of aria for nothingwith starting by starting a riot that wasnt needed?) kill morinth in the vip club because only self defense is allowed there(like the bouncer said right at the beginning). A little more attention if you critize things or you make yourself a fool.

Modifié par tonnactus, 13 août 2010 - 06:04 .

[dheer]

Interesting vids, Smudboy. I really enjoyed the characters in ME2 but there are flaws, like any game. Some are more glaring than others.

[Il Divo]

I find the criticism of Shepard as a 'static brick' rather odd for an rpg where most protagonists receive little to no development, minus what you the player imagine. Ashley's romance was probably the only moment I can think of in Mass Effect off the top of my head.



I would also say that nitpicking that Illusive Man does not outright say "You will need the best on this mission" is overly harsh.

[Jackal904]

Throw_this_away wrote...

Wow.

His voice is more annoying than his posts.

That sure is a lot of time invested with the goal of criticizing. I would hate to see what level of obsession is reached if he actually liked something.

You don;t like the plot of ME2... we get it.

Exactly. Seriously smudboy, and I mean this in the best way possible, get a life. Just let it go bro.

Modifié par Jackal904, 13 août 2010 - 06:43 .

[bjdbwea]

I think one character would deserve an own video: Shepard. You call him a brick, and that's the basics of it. But you could easily fill a video with examples where BioWare dropped the ball in ME 2 as far as writing Shepard - and giving the player a chance to give their Shepard personality - is concerned.

[scotchtape622]

One thing that I really do agree with you on is how they should have reduced the cast, combining some of them (though I really like Grunt )