138 réponses à ce sujet

[Khavos]

RoundeyeSamurai wrote...

So why don't we drop the petty crap, and make some logical arguments for and against the inclusion of co-op, with points, counter-points, and yes opinions are considered points, because we as fans, have opinions, and devs do consider them valid, but if you voice an opinion, give it credibility by justifying it.

If it hasn't already been planned into the development cycle, the release date would be pushed back quite a bit.  That's been mentioned several times, and the response has basically been, "Nah, some junior Java developer could do it in an hour or two." 

I also don't know why you're "looking at me" regarding console vs. PC debates; I've played a lot of co-op on the 360, and I can think of few things more mind-numbing than watching a buddy go through a dialogue scene or read codex entries in Dragon Age.  Not to mention that Bioware's not exactly known for making difficult games, and co-op would simply trivialize already trivial content.  

[FDrage]

If I play a single player game I like to play it due to the story and the fact that I can play it at my own pace not because I don't want to play together with people or any other reason.

The problem I have is that when game company mix too many "play styles" something will suffer as they only got a limited budge regardless on how big that budget is in itself. Any concentration on one game mode will therefore lead to short comings in other areas of the game. And some of these aspects then might feel added on to the "main game" just for the sake of adding something to it and not at the same standard. Be it a too short single-player, story mode and bad tagged on multi-player component, etc. Any system that big would require a significant amount of resousrces, I 'd imagine, which would be missed in other areas.

Personally I much prefer that game companies focus there affords on specific game styles in that sense that a games is build from ground up and focuses on co-op or single or multi-player, etc. to get:

a) the best possible outcome fro a respected game style
to focus polishing and "balancing" game elements for that one specific style
c) enable consumers a better choice on what they want to buy or not.

Personally, if Bioware can develop a good co-op system or multiplayer system that works in the Dragon Age universe then yes why not. I probably wouldn't buy it as I would look for other things in these type of games. But at least I know what I would get and don't need to waste money on a game play element that I wouldn't be interested. For example, if I buy a FPS I exclusively buy it for the multiplayer part and single player part from my perspective is a waste. in this case I would rather have 2 more multiplayer modes or maps or anything like that. That doesn't mean that people don't enjoy single-player, but it is a waste for me personally.

If the game would be developed from ground up (and I think DA2 would be tooo far in development cycle for these changes without making them feel "tagged on") with the co-op or mulitplayer component in mind. I don't see why it couldn't work.
It might well be that for some future title DA's development team might take on lessons learned from SWTOR with multip-layer conversations in developing a game or a module or a xPac type of content with co-op or multiplayer in mind. It, at present, wouldn't be something that I would like to have, but I don't see any reason why it isn't possible or shouldn't be done ... as long as it is done right (e.g. the story developed with co-op in mind) and not just included for the sake of having a co-op mode.... then why not.

I just think that, at least for DA2 (also they've said that it is single player only) it is way tooo late in teh development cycle to make any co-op system just feel "tagged" on for the sake of having a co-op 'system'.

Modifié par FDrage, 13 août 2010 - 01:58 .

[Tezzajh]

co-op complete waste of time, perhaps a splitcreen to have a silent partner but thats it

Modifié par Tezzajh, 13 août 2010 - 01:58 .

[Khavos]

Lunarionsilver wrote...

Maverick827 wrote...

So you don't have any friends?
I know I will be playing through TOR with real life friends who will not whine about such things. It's almost as if the game assumes you are playing with people that you can tolerate.

Then I am glad you have friends willing to follow you around.

Mine, on the other hand, would rather play their own story, just as I.

A matter of taste, I imagine.

I haven't follow the TOR news at all, as what I initially heard about it turned me off completely, but is it really going to be dialogue/cutscene heavy?  That doesn't exactly sound like a recipe for what most people want in an MMO. 

[FDrage]

Khavos wrote...

I haven't follow the TOR news at all, as what I initially heard about it turned me off completely, but is it really going to be dialogue/cutscene heavy?  That doesn't exactly sound like a recipe for what most people want in an MMO. 

while I haven't followed it in detail, I do keep an eye out for it ... I'm not sure what "most people want from an MMO" as too often it is just more of the same in different clothes ... PvP, the so called "end-game", etc. ...

It at least sounds interesting and "novel" enough of what Bioware is trying with some of the system, full VO, multi-player conversaions (probably a nightmare for writers), story-based classes, etc. to make it at lesast seem interesting and "novel" enough. So I can't imagine that it will be "cut scene heavy", but either to some degree optional or at least "short-cut able" ... for those who prefer a more direct approach.

If they can pull it off, well that remains to be seen ... but at least it sounds interesting and refreshing for an MMO, which too often lacks a significant and somewhat meaningfullstory element.

Modifié par FDrage, 13 août 2010 - 02:04 .

[RoundeyeSamurai]

Khavos wrote...

RoundeyeSamurai wrote...

So why don't we drop the petty crap, and make some logical arguments for and against the inclusion of co-op, with points, counter-points, and yes opinions are considered points, because we as fans, have opinions, and devs do consider them valid, but if you voice an opinion, give it credibility by justifying it.

If it hasn't already been planned into the development cycle, the release date would be pushed back quite a bit.  That's been mentioned several times, and the response has basically been, "Nah, some junior Java developer could do it in an hour or two." 

I also don't know why you're "looking at me" regarding console vs. PC debates; I've played a lot of co-op on the 360, and I can think of few things more mind-numbing than watching a buddy go through a dialogue scene or read codex entries in Dragon Age.  Not to mention that Bioware's not exactly known for making difficult games, and co-op would simply trivialize already trivial content.  

I was look at you because of this:

They're designing it for the folks who couldn't care less about that stuff, some of whom are present in the thread advocating co-op so they can mash buttons while on Eks-Bawx Live together.  

 Whether or not they are considering it this far in the development cycle is something not one of us can automatically assume, some of us hope they are, and some of us hope they aren't. I also addressed the issue of dialogue with a possible, simple workaround, which would also enhance team play, as well as make everyone feel like they have a say and are not always just simple followers.

The co-op experience is not only about the technical issues, it is also about who you choose to play with. I have a community of friends, many of which I know I could sit down and spend hours doing the RPG co-op thing with them, including group decisions, taking time to sort out equipment, and we would enjoy every minute of it. There are also people who I wouldn't enjoy this sort of experience with, but could co-op in a shooter with and have a blast. The co-op experience is part what the developer makes of it, and part what the player makes of it. 

I will not say that this would be an easy task to implement for the devs, but you make it sound like it would be the hardest thing in the world, implying that coding the SP is much easier. There are devs out there that specialize in MP, who COULD make it happen, don't make it sound like it would be getting blood from a stone.

[RoundeyeSamurai]

slimgrin wrote...

This topic keeps resurfacing like a persistent rash. Somebody get me a can of console-be-gone.

So glad you dropped by to contribute!

[Khavos]

RoundeyeSamurai wrote...

I will not say that this would be an easy task to implement for the devs, but you make it sound like it would be the hardest thing in the world, implying that coding the SP is much easier. There are devs out there that specialize in MP, who COULD make it happen, don't make it sound like it would be getting blood from a stone.

I make it sound like it will require a lot of design work, a lot of coding, a lot of testing, etc.  All of which will take a lot of time.  If that time isn't already allocated, then including co-op would require a significant delay in release.  You can't just go into the .ini file and change EnableMultiplayer = 0 to EnableMultiplayer = 1.

[FDrage]

RoundeyeSamurai wrote...

[...]  Whether or not they are considering it this far in the development cycle is something not one of us can automatically assume, some of us hope they are, and some of us hope they aren't. [...]

as far as I'm aware of they have already stated that DA2 is a single player game ...

http://social.biowar...50&lf=8#3052202

Modifié par FDrage, 13 août 2010 - 02:07 .

[rafoquinha]

Jeedepee wrote...

The co-op games I have played have either been good co-op games with a meh singleplayer option, or good singleplayer games with a bleh co-op option.
The focus is always going to be on one of the two and affecting the other in a negative way.

For all I care Bioware can release tons of co-op DLC. Those have been substandard so far anyway (in my humblest of opinions). And if it says co-op on the dlc I'm atleast sure I won't be buying them anyway

Neverwinter Nights is a great single-player and co-op experience as well. I can mention other games too: Diablo 2, Sacred 2, Baldur´s Gate, Champions of Norrath, most of the shooters out there, etc.

What is similar among all the games I mentioned? All of them allows co-op to be played in the main campaign (that could also be played in single-player).

[EmonCousland]

I've played ton's of Co-op games before, but I still don't want this implemented. Look at Fable 2!! The Co-op was downright terrible. If they had dropped out that feature completley, they could have focused their resources on other things such as the dreadful story. Borderlands?! Are you serious?! Bordelands is a fps. There is hardly any chracter interaction. The story was terrible. Don't get me wrong, it was still a good game nontheless. But let's put things this way:

Bordelands=Pear

Dragon Age=Apple

You sir, are asking an Apple to morph into a pear

And are we going to be bringing the PC vs console argument into this? Bioware has always catared to the needs of both of them. Remember the differences between the PC version and Console version of Mass effect.  They changed HUD to suit both of the markets.
Now, stop with the arguing and we can all start looking forward to Dragon age 2 again!

[Khavos]

Lunarionsilver wrote...

Apparently it is. Bioware states it is a "Story Driven" MMO, so we simply need to wait and see what that means. Your character is voiced, and it uses a dialogue wheel a la Mass Effect. From the few videos released it looks interesting, so I will try it; go through the story once and see how it fairs.

Wow.

That sounds terrible to me. 

[RoundeyeSamurai]

Khavos wrote...

RoundeyeSamurai wrote...

I will not say that this would be an easy task to implement for the devs, but you make it sound like it would be the hardest thing in the world, implying that coding the SP is much easier. There are devs out there that specialize in MP, who COULD make it happen, don't make it sound like it would be getting blood from a stone.

I make it sound like it will require a lot of design work, a lot of coding, a lot of testing, etc.  All of which will take a lot of time.  If that time isn't already allocated, then including co-op would require a significant delay in release.  You can't just go into the .ini file and change EnableMultiplayer = 0 to EnableMultiplayer = 1.

I am not saying it wouldn't be a lot of work, but it could be done concurrently. Coding and testing has to be done for SP as well, so a lot of the time and resources could be shared. As for it taking a little longer, sure it would take a little longer... so what, I would rather a great experience be delivered late, then a stale experience be delivered on time. Too many developers these days focus on the deadline set by publishers, and lose track of quality control in order to meet the deadline. Then you end up with untested, unsatisfying experiences leaving a bitter taste in your mouth.  IMHO, I think co-op in this game would only enhance the experience (done right) for the player, I would be willing to wait a few months more for that. 

[AlanC9]

RoundeyeSamurai wrote...
 While many of you appreciate DA as a single player experience, some of you have admitted that they have never even tried co-op, yet still automatically assume that it would be bad. You sound like my kids, "I won't eat that food, because it is gross" when they haven't even tried it yet. This is a grand problem to be found on every board, regardless of the game, so I should not be surprised if it degrades to that here as well.

You don't always have to try things to know they aren't for you. I've never tried S&M, for instance,  because the whole concept strikes me as preposterous. There's nothing about co-op that appeals to me either.

[Khavos]

RoundeyeSamurai wrote...

I am not saying it wouldn't be a lot of work, but it could be done concurrently. Coding and testing has to be done for SP as well, so a lot of the time and resources could be shared. As for it taking a little longer, sure it would take a little longer... so what, I would rather a great experience be delivered late, then a stale experience be delivered on time. Too many developers these days focus on the deadline set by publishers, and lose track of quality control in order to meet the deadline. Then you end up with untested, unsatisfying experiences leaving a bitter taste in your mouth.  IMHO, I think co-op in this game would only enhance the experience (done right) for the player, I would be willing to wait a few months more for that. 

It could be done concurrently only if they have a bunch of guys who know how to do it basically sitting around not working on anything else, which seems unlikely.  They'd either need to pull them off other projects or hire more.  Features that take as much planning and testing as co-op to implement generally don't get thrown into the mix in the middle of development, as far as I'm aware.  

[Maverick827]

Lunarionsilver wrote...

Maverick827 wrote...

So you don't have any friends?
I know I will be playing through TOR with real life friends who will not whine about such things. It's almost as if the game assumes you are playing with people that you can tolerate.

Then I am glad you have friends willing to follow you around.

Mine, on the other hand, would rather play their own story, just as I.

A matter of taste, I imagine.

I don't think you quite understand.

If developed with co-op in mind, no one would be "following you around."  You would likely be traveling together as equal players, as it will be in TOR.

Your opinion on something that does not yet exist is already made and unwavering; there's no use in replying to you any further.

[Lao Dan]

I own DAO on console and would hate DA2 to have coop.



Some people need to ask themselves: Why does every game have to have coop?



One of the most frustrating things about the gaming industry is the homogenization of games. Companies take popular game features and clone them instead of innovating or keeping the characteristics that make them distinctive. Over reliance on coop is just one aspect of this.



Coop works with some games. But...

Games do not need coop to be worthwhile.

[AlanC9]

Maverick827 wrote...
If developed with co-op in mind, no one would be "following you around."  You would likely be traveling together as equal players, as it will be in TOR.

Right -- so in addition to all of the technical stuff mentioned earlier, now they have to rewrite the campaign too....

[M.S. Rose]

I have the PC so as much as I love Co-op it would be useless to me.

[AlanC9]

rafoquinha wrote...
Neverwinter Nights is a great single-player and co-op experience as well. I can mention other games too: Diablo 2, Sacred 2, Baldur´s Gate, Champions of Norrath, most of the shooters out there, etc.

What is similar among all the games I mentioned? All of them allows co-op to be played in the main campaign (that could also be played in single-player).

You probably shouldn't use NWN as an example. The OC wasn't all that good. And the HotU campaign, which was good, didn't support multiplayer.