26 réponses à ce sujet

[Valdan777]

 Which is the better choice for a sentinel as far as collector ship weapons go? (if you feel another gun is a better choice please offer input as well
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[Kronner]

Once again, it comes down to your playstyle. There is no "better option".
I like Eviscerator Sentinel best, not really fan of GPS outside of Soldier builds. Mattock is nice, but Sentinels already have access to Locust SMG.

Modifié par Kronner, 13 août 2010 - 07:23 .

[termokanden]

The Mattock and Locust compete for the same role. They both perform well at any range. The Mattock is probably more powerful, but it won't make it huge difference.

However, shotguns give you a different kind of stopping power at short range. I also like how you can double the ammo capacity of shotguns. It makes them great for mopping up husks.

I picked sniper rifles for my last caster. Would definitely pick shotguns this time.

Modifié par termokanden, 13 août 2010 - 07:30 .

[fantasypisces]

I take the Mattock for medium range fighting/heavy weapon-lite. I say that because the weapon packs A LOT of damage, far far far far more than the locust (so no, they don't really compete for the same role)That way instead of locust I can take Tempest which has far more damage for the times I'm getting close to enemies.

But ultimately it is play style. If you want shotgun you can use the locust and it would pretty much be the same as going Mattock and Tempest, it's just playstyle.

Personally I'm not a big shotgun guy (can't seem to play a vanguard because of it), and I like spraying a full tempest round into the chest of people I just ran up to.

Modifié par fantasypisces, 13 août 2010 - 08:41 .

[ArmyofEffect3]

I use the Mattock as a Sentinel. Kicks arse.

[Kaiser Shepard]

No weapon complements the Sentinel as much as the Geth Plasma Shotgun.

[termokanden]

fantasypisces wrote...

I take the Mattock for medium range fighting/heavy weapon-lite. I say that because the weapon packs A LOT of damage, far far far far more than the locust (so no, they don't really compete for the same role)That way instead of locust I can take Tempest which has far more damage for the times I'm getting close to enemies.

They are both general purpose weapons for all ranges.

For pure fun/variety I'd go with shotguns. I just love using them.

I guess shotguns would also be awesome for engineers. Drone on someone and then get close with the shotgun.

[JockBuster]

fantasypisces wrote...

I take the Mattock for medium range fighting/heavy weapon-lite. I say that because the weapon packs A LOT of damage, far far far far more than the locust (so no, they don't really compete for the same role)That way instead of locust I can take Tempest which has far more damage for the times I'm getting close to enemies.

But ultimately it is play style. If you want shotgun you can use the locust and it would pretty much be the same as going Mattock and Tempest, it's just playstyle.

Personally I'm not a big shotgun guy (can't seem to play a vanguard because of it), and I like spraying a full tempest round into the chest of people I just ran up to.

Agreed, but for a Sentinel, plus the Mattock is good vs Human reaper, Sentinels are a little under gunned at that point; altho the Cain does a NASTY number on it. Shotguns leave them to Grunt, Jack & Jacob, but again the GPS does take out mr. possessed with ONE blast (hold to charge for 1 sec then release) but does not work against armor unless you have a squaddie with squad incendiary (Grunt) then it rocks! 

Modifié par JockBuster, 14 août 2010 - 03:32 .

[Ch40sFox]

Personally, why wouldnt you just maximize the rediculous capacity for Sentinel's already? Add squad mates in, and the rediculous amount of synergy they can have with any party member, and you have a serious force of nature.

[JaegerBane]

fantasypisces wrote...

I take the Mattock for medium range fighting/heavy weapon-lite. I say that because the weapon packs A LOT of damage, far far far far more than the locust (so no, they don't really compete for the same role)That way instead of locust I can take Tempest which has far more damage for the times I'm getting close to enemies.

I'm not really sure what numbers you're using here, but the Tempest doesn't pull that far ahead of the Locust in terms of short-range damage. It's like 204 vs 221 dps against health, and the Locust packs a more balanced modifier against all defences. Hell, against armour, the Tempest actually has *less* DPS.

There is a difference - it just isn't a particularly big one. You're trading flexibility for the ability to do a bit more damage against shields - the overall wisdom of this is debatable on a class packing Overload.

[OniGanon]

Which weapon to pick would depent on the kind of Sentinel you play. IMO:
Caster- Mattock, Tempest, Carnifex
Assault- GPS, Locust, Predator

Modifié par OniGanon, 14 août 2010 - 01:34 .

[Ch40sFox]

JaegerBane wrote...

fantasypisces wrote...

I take the Mattock for medium range fighting/heavy weapon-lite. I say that because the weapon packs A LOT of damage, far far far far more than the locust (so no, they don't really compete for the same role)That way instead of locust I can take Tempest which has far more damage for the times I'm getting close to enemies.

I'm not really sure what numbers you're using here, but the Tempest doesn't pull that far ahead of the Locust in terms of short-range damage. It's like 204 vs 221 dps against health, and the Locust packs a more balanced modifier against all defences. Hell, against armour, the Tempest actually has *less* DPS.

There is a difference - it just isn't a particularly big one. You're trading flexibility for the ability to do a bit more damage against shields - the overall wisdom of this is debatable on a class packing Overload.

Besides, The Locust is just so much more manageable than the Tempest a good majority of the time, its limited shots make you focus more, than making you give into "Panic and Spray".

Personally, the Mattock is the best thing that Bioware has given us so far.

[fantasypisces]

JaegerBane wrote...

fantasypisces wrote...

I take the Mattock for medium range fighting/heavy weapon-lite. I say that because the weapon packs A LOT of damage, far far far far more than the locust (so no, they don't really compete for the same role)That way instead of locust I can take Tempest which has far more damage for the times I'm getting close to enemies.

I'm not really sure what numbers you're using here, but the Tempest doesn't pull that far ahead of the Locust in terms of short-range damage. It's like 204 vs 221 dps against health, and the Locust packs a more balanced modifier against all defences. Hell, against armour, the Tempest actually has *less* DPS.

There is a difference - it just isn't a particularly big one. You're trading flexibility for the ability to do a bit more damage against shields - the overall wisdom of this is debatable on a class packing Overload.

And like everyone says it is a personal choice. For medium/long range I use the assault rifle (well I use the mattock). So the kick-back/aiming of the tempest isn't an issue. And generally things don't have a lot of armor by the time I get to them.

To be honest, before the weapons pack DLC came out I started a second sentinel (first was a caster, so had assault rifle) to get the shotgun, but when the weapons pack came out I loaded up my soldier and freaking loved the mattock. So my second sentinel also had the assault rifle, which I felt was a bit redundant, but I loved it.

Shotguns are really good for a sentinel, there is no denying that. But I preferred a bit more flexibility in my range, i.e. being able to fire at any range for a good amount of damage. Because of the locust it can replace the assault rifle so by all means go shotgun. But me personally, I took great satisfaction unloading a spray of tempest bullets into my enemies chest.

It is a marginal damage boost from locust to tempest, but it is still more damage. And erm, from here: http://social.biowar...8/index/1143264 Locust does do more vs armor, but tempest does more vs shields and barriers, which I feel is an even trade off. So for "the wisdom of this being debatable on a class packing  overload", I could counter that the class also packs warp which works against armor. So against defenses on a whole we can say they are even, but which then comes down to dps, which the tempest is higher (ok, I was wrong in saying it was 'far' higher, but it is higher).

So really, it is a personality and playstyle choice. As locust and shotgun works just as well as tempest/locust and assault rifle. I just felt I had more flexibility with the assault rifle against a lot of things, such as heavy mechs, scions, etc.

Modifié par fantasypisces, 15 août 2010 - 10:07 .

[fantasypisces]

I should say, that before the mattock I was going to go shotgun, but once the mattock came out I went assault rifle and never looked back. Especially since on higher difficulties, charging into stuff with a shotgun is just not feasible all the time, so being able to sit back with the mattock is a huge blessing. So once again, I do not feel I am trading "flexibility" by not taking the locust, in fact I feel I gain more flexibility by having the mattock, then the smg that does more damage to health/shields/barriers as opposed to just more damage vs armor....

Modifié par fantasypisces, 15 août 2010 - 10:20 .

[JaegerBane]

fantasypisces wrote...
And like everyone says it is a personal choice. For medium/long range I use the assault rifle (well I use the mattock). So the kick-back/aiming of the tempest isn't an issue. And generally things don't have a lot of armor by the time I get to them.

Well, yeah, ultimately it does boil down to personal choice. The point is you weren't using 'personal choice' to justify using the Tempest, you were claiming it does far more damage.

I'm not really sure what point you're making about 'generally things don't have armour by the time I get to them' - armour is a lot more common on enemies than any other defence and in many cases, is actually equivalent to health, so the idea you encounter armour so rarely that it isn't worth considering doesn't really correlate with what is happening in the game.

As I say, it essentially totally boils down to personal choice - but from the stance of stats in the game, there is rarely reason to take the Tempest over the Locust.

It is a marginal damage boost from locust to tempest, but it is still more damage. And erm, from here: http://social.biowar...8/index/1143264 Locust does do more vs armor, but tempest does more vs shields and barriers, which I feel is an even trade off. So for "the wisdom of this being debatable on a class packing  overload", I could counter that the class also packs warp which works against armor. So against defenses on a whole we can say they are even, but which then comes down to dps, which the tempest is higher (ok, I was wrong in saying it was 'far' higher, but it is higher).

It's not even in the slightest. For one thing, Warp is not an AoE power, and therefore, unlike Overload, you'll only be stripping armour from enemies one by one - which is generally acknowledged as one of the least optimal ways of defence stripping. Secondly, armour is far more common and often far more important than shields and barriers - on many of the toughest enemies, it even takes place of health.

Overload is primarily an anti-shield power and performs this function vastly better than Warp vs armour. Thus having a weapon that works better against a rarer and less common defence and comes with a requirement to be at short range to boot ultimately has little to recommend it in the face of a gun that is still effective against shields, but also against more important defences over a wider range.

So really, it is a personality and playstyle choice. As locust and shotgun works just as well as tempest/locust and assault rifle. I just felt I had more flexibility with the assault rifle against a lot of things, such as heavy mechs, scions, etc.

Ultimately, it is just choice. All I'm saying is that the only reason someone would choose a Tempest on a Sentinel over a Locust would be personal preference, not anything related to stats

Modifié par JaegerBane, 15 août 2010 - 09:13 .

[fantasypisces]

I don't think Armor is the most prevalent though.
Blue Suns have shields, geth have shields, eclipse has shields and/or barriers.

For Armor, it is Blood Pack, husks, scions, gun ships, and things with multi-protection. So when there is armor, I use the Mattock. Against blood pack I use warp anyway to help stop regen (so essentially I'm spamming warp) which also attacks armor.

So from my experience, armor only makes up about a third of defenses from all the missions. And yes, going through and stripping defenses one-by-one is least optimal compared to aoe, but shooting is one-by-one as well, so ultimately I don't quite know what your getting at either. On insanity I have never had an overload completely strip shields, therefore you have to shoot in-between cooldowns. So it makes sense to still have a weapon that can deal with those defenses.

I'm not denying the locust is a good weapon. But when you have a weapon that has high accuracy (such as the Mattock) the locust then loses it's place because it's only 'advantage' over the tempest is it's good against armor and has better accuracy. Tempest is a bit better at damage, shields, and barriers. Ergo common sense dictates that it is a better all-around weapon when accuracy is not an issue.
Now, if you don't have the mattock, and instead go shotgun, then yes the Locust is essential because of it's accuracy. But when you have the mattock the Locust is not needed.
And I already apologized for saying the I thought the tempest had 'far' more damage output, I thought it did have more than what's listed. But it is still more damage.

But yeah, shields are not "rares and less common defense". I was fighting against shields constantly from geth/mechs/and mercs.
So yes, you could pick the Tempest for stats if you have the mattock. More damage against health/shields/barriers as opposed to just better accuracy and more damage against only armor.

Modifié par fantasypisces, 16 août 2010 - 01:24 .

[fantasypisces]

 So I was really bored and did this. This is under the assumption that you have mattock, so accuracy is not an issue. It simply becomes "your preference on SMG". It's between:
Locust: 1.25 damage against armor, shields, barrier -- 204 dps
Tempest: 1.5 damage against shields, barrier -- 221 dps

So the difference is:
Locust does 0.25 more damage against armor, 0.25 less damage against shields/barriers, and 17 less dps.
Tempest does 0.25 more damage against shields/barriers, 0.25 less against armor, and 17 more dps.
(this is because damage modifiers are always 1.0 against everything, so 1.25 means 0.25 more).

So I went through and worked out the most common types of defenses you see on missions, pretending you went and did NG+, that way you have access to all the weapons, and most everything would have a defense because of insanity. Tutorial doesn't count because you are not given choice of weapons (so no lab or Freedom's progress). Since Tempest does 0.25 more damage against shields and barriers it will be picked where missions deal with mostly that defense. Since Locust does 0.25 more damage against armor it will be picked for those missions.

Mordin: Blood Pack with a little Blue Suns  90% Armor, 10% shields ----- Locust is better
Garrus: Blue suns which are shields, Eclipse which are shields/barriers/armor, and blood pack which is armor ---- doesn't matter
Grunt: Blue Suns with some Krogan, 80% shields, 20% armor ---- Tempest
Jack: Nothing but Blue Suns and some heavy mechs, so a lot of shields --- Tempest
Horizon: Collectors with some husks, 80% Barriers, 20% armor --- Tempest
Tali: Nothing but Geth with Shields --- Tempest
Thane: Eclipse so mostly shields/barriers with some armor on occasional mechs -- Tempest
Samara: Eclipse but very few mechs in this one, so pretty much shields/barriers -- Tempest
Collector Ship: 80% barriers, 20% armor --- Tempest
Miranda Loyalty: Eclipse (see Thane) --- Tempest
Jacob Loyalty: Mostly mechs with armor --- Locust
Mordin Loyalty: Lots of Blood Pack with armor --- Locust
Grunt Loyalty: "Wildlife" armor --- Locust
Jack Loyalty: Blood Pack armor --- Locust
Garrus Loyalty: Blue Suns, mostly shields with some armor on mechs ---Tempest
Tali Loyalty: Lots of Geth, shields -- Tempest
Thane Loyalty: nothing
Samara Loyalty: nothing
Reaper IFF: Lots of armor --- Locust
Legion Loyalty: Lots of geth -- Tempest
Suicide Mission: Mostly collectors with barriers, some husks/scions with armor -- Tempest
Overlord: One mission nothing but mechs, rest are Geth, final boss armor -- doesn't matter

I dunno about you, but if you wanted most damage against what you are facing, then having the mattock in hand (so not needing medium range accuracy from an SMG) then I would be taking the Tempest for better damage modifiers, except of the six missions where the locust is better, the Tempest would be better on average for the others based upon the average defenses.

Armor is not by far the most common defense.

You could even add the side-quests if you want:
There is a blue suns line so Tempest
There is a Blood Pack line so Locust
There is a quest with Geth so Tempest
A quest with Mechs so Locust
And a quest with Eclipse so doesn't matter.
Tempest still pulls ahead.

But let me reiterate at the end of my rant. If you go shotgun, go Locust because you will need medium-range accuracy.

Modifié par fantasypisces, 16 août 2010 - 02:11 .

[PsyrenY]

Assault Sentinels = Shotgun (Finish off enemies laid out by shield burst quickly.)

Caster Sentinels = Sniper (Aim powers/finish enemies from long range.)



You CAN use AR instead of these two highly useful options... but with the Locust already covering mid-range, why bother?

[OniGanon]

SMGs are really anti-Shield/Barrier weapons no matter what you do. The Locust has a bonus vs Armour but it's still really an anti-Shield weapon and you should still, whenever possible, use the Heavy Pistol, Sniper Rifle or Assault Rifle vs Armour instead.

[Bozorgmehr]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Assault Sentinels = Shotgun (Finish off enemies laid out by shield burst quickly.)
Caster Sentinels = Sniper (Aim powers/finish enemies from long range.)

You CAN use AR instead of these two highly useful options... but with the Locust already covering mid-range, why bother?

SR is a pain due to the zoom effect when casting powers (only behind cover / or zoomed in (rmb)) - Mattock is better to take out and/or strip enemy's defenses at range. I always go the Assault path, SGs rock on Sentinel (like all other classes)

[JaegerBane]

fantasypisces wrote...
So from my experience, armor only makes up about a third of defenses from all the missions. And yes, going through and stripping defenses one-by-one is least optimal compared to aoe, but shooting is one-by-one as well, so ultimately I don't quite know what your getting at either. On insanity I have never had an overload completely strip shields, therefore you have to shoot in-between cooldowns. So it makes sense to still have a weapon that can deal with those defenses.

I wasn't talking about a simple tally of how many shielded enemies you fight vs how many armoured enemies you fight. I was talking about the relative level of importance armour has in this game - shields are found on things like blue suns mooks and geth minions. Armour is found on everything from Vorcha mooks to bloomin' gunships, threshers and reapers. The general potency of enemies using armour is *significantly* higher. Even the most dangerous shielded enemies have armour too.

I'm not really sure why you're claiming shooting enemies one by one is 'least optimal'. Optimal compared to what? Are you claiming that there is no difference in effectiveness to using a power against one enemy as oppose to several at once?

I'm not denying the locust is a good weapon. But when you have a weapon that has high accuracy (such as the Mattock) the locust then loses it's place because it's only 'advantage' over the tempest is it's good against armor and has better accuracy. Tempest is a bit better at damage, shields, and barriers. Ergo common sense dictates that it is a better all-around weapon when accuracy is not an issue.

That's the issue. You seem to consider better accuracy as a nice addition, depsite the fact that accuracy determines whether you do any damage at all. Bear in mind that it's not unreasonable to assume you're getting the full whack of DPS with the Locust no matter the range... while to even approach the Tempest's DPS, you have to be virtually on top of your opponent. To gain any kind of accuracy you have to pulse the Tempest, which further reduces it's DPS.

You keep bringing in the Mattock, which doesn't really make much sense - yeah, it's got vastly superior DPS, but happens to have critically low ammo. Having the mattock does not mean you can essentially choose to fight at range for the whole game.

You're also pinning an enormous amount of importance on the Tempest's extra 0.25 modifier against shields and barriers. Considering the Locust does nearly twice the damage per shot and, with upgrades, still manages a 1.75 modifier against shields, it begs the question what practical effect you think you're gaining. On paper it's an extra 60 DPS in favour of the Tempest - in reality, you'd have to be firing on *full-auto* to get this figure. This is only realistic when you're literally within melee range. Is that really only where you're using it? Do you not think that's rather limiting? You might as well be using your Mattock at that range.

The Locust can fire on full auto no matter the range and still expect near 100% hits. Hell, it manages headshots quite well - which pushes it's damage up even higher.

A lot of the Tempest's power is only truly relevant on paper. DPS doesn't take into account how often or where you're hitting, and the Tempest virtually demands you shoot it in bursts just to gain hits at all. All I'm saying is that to actually beat the locust in the areas you bring up would require you to be absurdly close, and even though the damage would be higher... it's be a matter of a few points. That isn't a sensible trade by anyone's standards.

[Kronner]

Locust is much better than Tempest. Except for close (melee) range - Tempest is slightly better there.

[mosor]

JockBuster wrote...

fantasypisces wrote...

I take the Mattock for medium range fighting/heavy weapon-lite. I say that because the weapon packs A LOT of damage, far far far far more than the locust (so no, they don't really compete for the same role)That way instead of locust I can take Tempest which has far more damage for the times I'm getting close to enemies.

But ultimately it is play style. If you want shotgun you can use the locust and it would pretty much be the same as going Mattock and Tempest, it's just playstyle.

Personally I'm not a big shotgun guy (can't seem to play a vanguard because of it), and I like spraying a full tempest round into the chest of people I just ran up to.

Agreed, but for a Sentinel, plus the Mattock is good vs Human reaper, Sentinels are a little under gunned at that point; altho the Cain does a NASTY number on it. Shotguns leave them to Grunt, Jack & Jacob, but again the GPS does take out mr. possessed with ONE blast (hold to charge for 1 sec then release) but does not work against armor unless you have a squaddie with squad incendiary (Grunt) then it rocks! 

The human reaper is a joke. A couple shots with the cain and the preadator pistol will take it down pretty quickly. Rather have the shotty as the locust SMG/predator pistol is a fine distance weapon against shields and armor respectively..

Modifié par mosor, 16 août 2010 - 06:55 .

[fantasypisces]

Yeah YaegarBan, just shows you weren't paying attention to me in my earlier posts, and you have now been arguing against me for a while, when I stated "That way instead of locust I can take Tempest which has far more damage for the times I'm getting close to enemies" in my very first post.

My whole argument has been if you have the Mattock for medium range (that's why I bring up the mattock), you do not need the locust. You then have the Tempest for when you pile-drive in. All of this I have been saying since my first post, and has been what I am defending.

Let me spell it out again.

If you have the Mattock, then go Tempest. Mattock = medium range, Tempest = close range.
If you have the shotgun, then go Locust. Locust = medium range, Shotgun = close range.

You have just always been countering with "there is no reason to take the tempest"
Wrong. There is plenty of ammo for the Mattock. If you run out, then most things are dead, so charge in with the SMG Tempest! You say you only get it's full damage effect if you are right on top of the guy. That is what I have been saying I do since the beginning, and is why I take the tempest.
Yet you still counter their is no reason to take the Tempest.

Kronner (who's opinion on sentinel's I respect highly) even said later: " Locust is much better than Tempest. Except for close (melee) range - Tempest is slightly better there."

Which is what I'm doing. So obviously there is a reason to take the Tempest, for when you charge into melee range. And why do I use it in melee range? Why, oh look, because I have the mattock. Yes the mattock is low clip size, but three shots with it and enemies health is gone. The higher damage makes up for the low clip size (unless you are a bad shot).
See how it all fits together now?

Edit 1: Then for armor you go on to say that bosses have it, gunships have it, mechs have it. And your right. And you know what I use? The mattock! It works oh so much better than any SMG on anything you can't/don't want to - get close to. So the Tempest does have a place, if you use the mattock but then want to get up in somethings face.

I wash my hands of this.

Modifié par fantasypisces, 17 août 2010 - 06:21 .

[JaegerBane]

fantasypisces wrote...

Yeah YaegarBan, just shows you weren't paying attention to me in my earlier posts, and you have now been arguing against me for a while, when I stated "That way instead of locust I can take Tempest which has far more damage for the times I'm getting close to enemies" in my very first post.

Oh please, let's not pull out the old 'read my post' chestnut. Shockingly enough, I am well aware of what your argument is. While I recognise that the Mattock gives a good longer-range option, you seem to be sticking to this rigid dogma of 'Tempest for short range, tempest for short range'.

Kronner is absolutely right in his assessment - it's slightly better at short range, I've never disputed that. My point is that slight improvement carries with it an array of punishing penalties. It's a literally a matter of a few points of DPS for the requirement that you need to be practically headbutting your opponents.

The Mattock cannot simply handle all situations on it's own, it doesn't have the ammo for it. Either you pick that and the Mattock and accept that you'll always have to eventually close in regardless of your situation, in order to use your backup, or you take another option which sacrifices a measly few DPS for the ability to fight at any range you want. It doesn't somehow 'stop' your ability to fight at short range, nor does it somehow give you a huge boost against shields as you claim - all it actually ahs in it's favour is the distinction that the numbers are higher. The fact that the numbers are higher by a *tiny* margin, you don't seem to consider.

As for the 'wash my hands blah blah blah'... Really, If you're just going to spit your dummy out and go home in the huff, fine. All I was ever doing was challenging your stats that you were basing your argument on - if you can't handle criticism, don't make tall claims. Geez

Modifié par JaegerBane, 17 août 2010 - 06:56 .