82 réponses à ce sujet

[Vaalyah]

@ The Fred: usually, 99,999999% of people in Faerun just do its own business. Of course here we are speaking about the 0,0000001% of population who actually joins the adventurer career. So we are following THOSE clerics who aren't spending all their time praying in a shrine.



PS: in my opinion, a nice addition to the game would have been seeing our PCs doing the things related to their classes in their "spare" time... a fighter who is doing exercise, a druid taking care of plants and animals and a cleric actually praying at evening!

[Happycrow]

That's why so many of us enjoy PW play, Vaalyah -- the roleplaying aspects tend to be better-supported.

[kamalpoe]

We all know the Spirit Shaman is the superior divine class!

[Vaalyah]

What is "PW play", please?

[kamalpoe]

Vaalyah wrote...

What is "PW play", please?

PW is a persistant world. Essentially a mini MMO. There are a number of NWN2 based persistant worlds, catering to many different styles of play. Some focus on roleplay, others on just killing monsters (or each other).

You can find an (incomplete I'm sure) list here
http://social.biowar...1/index/3122535

[Vaalyah]

I know what a persistent world is, the problem was that I haven't recognized the abbreviation :-P

Thank you.

Since now I have understood what we are talking about... of course in multiplayer, the RP aspect is better (we are interacting with other people!), but from what I've seen around (ie: WoW) except for saying to allies "Go, kill the one on your left while I kill the one on the right" or "Help me, cure me!", the game is just go and kill, go with many allies and kill...

So just combat, no RP...

And that's the major thing that makes me doubt about PW

[Haplose]

Umm, if NWN2 PW play is anything like NWN1's, than you have no idea...



Well, but there are servers that cater to various playstyles. So make sure you pick one you like.

But story and RP-focused should certainly be a possibility to choose.

[Vaalyah]

So, are you saying there are many server where the focus in on role playing and not combat? That seems interesting! I just need a list :-D

[Happycrow]

You indeed are completely clueless. RP is emphasized on a LARGE percentage of the PWs out there. Not all... but many. Check out the PW forum, and you'll see plenty of information.

[The Fred]

Thorsson64 wrote...

The Fred wrote...RP-wise a cleric would hang 'round temples praying rather than battering people with a mace.

This is absolute poppycock you know. There aren't many pacifist deities in Faerun.

OK so maybe the churches of Faerun are a little more agressive, but they're meant to be based loosely on real life (hence the "no slash/pierce weapons" restriction in 2nd edition) in which the majority of clerics of whatever faith don't start fighting people. Even thinking of something like the crusades, which were effectively Church-sanctioned wars, I don't think many priests actually went and battered the infidels themselves. In FR we have paladins to do the battering, so why do Clerics make better tanks than them?

Certainly a Cleric who calls upon holy powers to smite people (more like a wizard in terms of gameplay than a fighter) makes a bit more sense to me RP-wise than one who wades into combat. I'm not saying those kinds can't exist (I mean that's why we have the Warpriest PrC), but they should be the exception, not the rule.

Anyway, Druids make a lot more sense to me, as implemented in the game, than Clerics, who I've always found lacked focus a bit (not mechanically, but in terms of their sort of background). Clerics are just better gameplay-wise, it seems.

[avado]

The Fred wrote...
Certainly a Cleric who calls upon holy powers to smite people (more like a wizard in terms of gameplay than a fighter) makes a bit more sense to me RP-wise than one who wades into combat. I'm not saying those kinds can't exist (I mean that's why we have the Warpriest PrC), but they should be the exception, not the rule.

I dont know about you, but my clerics call upon the gods (cast Divine Favor) before EVERY battle.  I know one of the complaints with clerics are they rely on buffs to be "good".  Even the buffing session after rest could be calling to the gods. 

[nicethugbert]

Clerics come in all shapes and idealogies in D&D and they perform all sorts of roles by faith that would otherwise be done by science, engineering, craft, etc., especially in remote areas where such things would be lacking.



Take Clerics of Tyr as an example. They dispense justice in the remote and wilderness areas where detectives are few and far between. Being a cleric their intelligence could be limited by their emphasis on wisdom. Detective work and legal studies being heavily reliant on intelligence would not be expected to be the forte of a Priest of Tyr yet vital to their function.



But, Priests of Tyr are expected to keep detailed records of their cases. In the hands of someone else, this would be ordinary. But, I imagine that in the hands of a Priest of Tyr that these would be holy items and a means of fostering communications with Tyr. This communication with Tyr could reduce the gap in their ability to mete out proper justice.



Their emphasis on wisdom would give them strong perceptive abilities which are useful in detective work too.

[Thorsson64]

The Fred wrote...

In FR we have paladins to do the battering, so why do Clerics make better tanks than them?

Take that up with WotC. I'm just telling you how it is, rather than how you'd like it to be.

If it was up to me Druids would be way more powerful than Clerics, but that doesn't make it so.

[nicethugbert]

If Paladin's monopolize the battering then LG alignment gains the advantage.



The fact is, Paladin's are superfluous. The cleric is a great class to build a variety of holy warrior types. You can even replace the druid class with the cleric class by letting the clerics take druid feats and restricting the available spells by deity.

[The Fred]

Oh no, I realise full well that Clerics make awesome tanks (that's kind of what's bugging me), I just don't think it makes that good sense, RP-wise. Certainly you need to be able to feel the magic in order for it to make sense - for example if an awesome warrior attacks a cleric but is hurled away by divine intervention or whatever, fine, but if the cleric just batters him with a mace because he pre-buffed with Divine Power, it doesn't really feel the same.

Equally, I don't have issue with Clerics having awesome spells which make them into awesome tanks by taking on divine power, but it needs to be something rare and short-lived. Divine Power has a short duration (6 secs/level) but at a high level and with Extend spell, it's not too shabby.



As NTB says, Druids and even Paladins could indeed, I guess, just be like kits of the Cleric class (Druids are, after all, really just Clerics of a different religion - but then this is messy in FR, where Clerics of Mystra would be better off being mages), but that's not how it's been done in D&D so it just seems unfair that Druids get the short straw.

[Vaalyah]

avado wrote...

I dont know about you, but my clerics call upon
the gods (cast Divine Favor) before EVERY battle.  I know one of the
complaints with clerics are they rely on buffs to be "good".  Even the
buffing session after rest could be calling to the gods. 

My PC casts on allies before each battle (or dangerous area) bless, resist energy, plus some shield spells over wizards and other less powerful NPCs (I do prefer my wizard keeps attack spells in his mind, so I am
the one who cast defensive spells... by the way, in NWN2, except for Qara and Sand, those who ALWAYS need a protective spells were Neeshka and Elanee... she is the most weak companion of the entire game... and
she is a druid! She is almost dead after many combat, even if I cast on her many protective spells plus given to her many magic items for protection. So, no, in my opinion druid is not a good class).

However since in FR EVERY divinity has a combat avatar with a specific weapon and so on... why clerics should become closed in a shrine just praying? I second the opinion that paladin are superfluous. So you are a sort of
champion of your god. But you can cast about 3 spells and nothing more... well, I think clerics do their work perfectly without the need for paladins!

Modifié par Vaalyah, 21 août 2010 - 01:52 .

[kamalpoe]

The problem isn't cleric spells being overpowered so much as it is that the game lets you rest and recover spells as often as you feel like. So the spells that let a cleric become a great tank become effectively permanent. Resting takes only a few seconds and has no consequences like triggering random encounters. It's resting that's overpowered, not clerics.

[The Fred]

Vaalyah wrote...
... Elanee... she is the most weak companion of the entire game... and
she is a druid! She is almost dead after many combat, even if I cast on her many protective spells plus given to her many magic items for protection. So, no, in my opinion druid is not a good class).

With spells like Stoneskin, Druids should be pretty tough if you buff them well. Part of the issue though is that many of their offensive spells have point-blank range (e.g. Body of the Sun, Call Lightning etc) so they have to get into the thick of it to deal damage, where wizards can chill in the backline.

As for the point about resting, it's a good one. If you couldn't rest often, Divine Power wouldn't be usable in every fight - at least not without filling multiple slots with it. That said, frequent resting means Wizards and other casters can get their spells back too, and though this does make them more powerful, nobody's claiming their short duration spells are overpowered (generally speaking) because they can't turn into buffed Fighters. I mean, yes, a lot is setting-dependant, but having resting restrictions and dispelling enemies would hurt Druids too.

[Vaalyah]

At that spell-level I usually have 3 Divine Power and 4 Holy Light (if I remember correctly the name). However, divine power lasts very few seconds, so at the first quarter of the combat, has already gone! Not so useful in my opinion. I do prefer having some more damaging spells in memory!

[Arkalezth]

Druid is one, if not the most, powerful class at low levels. Clerics can also have a Dino pet, but only Druids have access to Flame Weapon and Elephant's Hide.

[Happycrow]

1. For clerics: Extend spell is your friend.

2. For Druids: elephant hide is amazingly helpful at bridging the gap between the early, not-very-useful, shapechanges, and the later, very-very good shapechanges. As a free action, it's also up the second you need it and not before (but it doesn't come with a graphic, so you have to watch your status icon to know when it fades). BUT, while I back Arkalezth on that, it's also a lot like monk, insofar as they can't be played "asleep" or on auto-pilot.

[Vaalyah]

The usual problem of few avatars... I thought all the 3 posts above this, were made by the same user... We need more avatars! :-D

[nicethugbert]

Jackpot!

[Happycrow]

I live in Texas. Hot Peppers are a great avatar for me. nyaa nyaa.

An additional consideration (pro-druid), which is irrelevant to the OC and to pvp-land... skills.



The OC's use of skills was more or less laughable, excepting crafting. If you play in an environment where skills actually matter, cleric.. well, doesn't measure up. May or may not affect your considerations.