82 réponses à ce sujet

[Vaalyah]

What do you mean?



By the way, my crafting doesn't work, so even crafting seems useless to me... still don't know why I create objects but they don't shows the magic abilities :-(

[Happycrow]

If you wish to take advantage of it, you should review. Essentially, druids receive twice as many skill points and a wider array of relevant skills.

[The Fred]

In a game where availabliltiy of items is fairly high, non-magical crafting is not that awesome (it's nice to make special material items to use for enchanting if you can't buy or find them, that's pretty much all).



Magical enchanting is really powerful, though. All you need is a caster with Craft Arms and Armour or Create Wonderous Item and you make a whole load of OP stuff. I think Clerics get more of the spells they'd need for casting than Druids, though.

[Vaalyah]

Ehm, I am a caster with craft weapons extremely high. I've created an adamantium bastard sword and all gone well. Then I want to make it with holy damage. I've followed the recipe, NWN2 popped out a window where I can put the name of my item (so the recipe gone well too) but if I look at the characteristic of the sword, it is still just an adamantium bastard sword. No magic in it. Any idea in what I do wrong?

[Haplose]

Do you have the FEAT "Craft Magical Arms and Armor"?

It's entirely separate from the skill. In fact you can have 0 skill ranks and still enchant stuff (because skill is NOT needed for that).



Also is your Caster Level high enough for the recipe?

[Vaalyah]

Yes to both question. Moreover, if I get the pop up window with "insert the item name here" it means the process has gone well. So I think the problem is another one :-( maybe a bug?

[Haplose]

Something in your override that could be causing this?

Also are you fully patched? What is your game version?

[Vaalyah]

Can't control right now (my new [2 months] computer has a problem, so I have to wait for the warranty to substitute a hardware part), but I patched the game. So, if the process has gone right, I should be fully patched.

I only have: the romance pack mod, and a pack to change the view of objects (because the toolset freezes at loading), that doesn't work. But it is a mod from the vault so it should be safe... and by the way, it doesn't work either :-D

[MANoob]

Druids (as allready have been said) are one of the most powerful low level classes (way better than cleric), which makes them good for most SP moduled since most of them are low level.



For PvM druids have lots of useful features:

- Sleep spell (very good for starting levels)

- Dino + animal buffs (clerics don't get animal buffs)

- No friendly fire AoEs

- Lots of save or die spells with great DCs due to Owl's Insight



Druids will never match clerics in terms of melee power, but with HIPS they can actually hit things and unlike clerics have enough skill points to get those stealth skills.



That been said, clerics are inferior to favoured souls as melee combatants. Access to divine might/shield was mentioned as one of the cleric's pros but in fact they suck for clerics. Generally you need STR to hit things and WIS to cast spells. If you add CHA (and you probably should go for 21+ to get EDM) you end up with a sucky build. FS gets EDM almost naturally (aside from having to multiclass to get turn undead).



Probably thats the reason I rarely play clerics (monk heavy SF builds and support zen caster clerics aside) - you usally can find a better character for any role a cleric may fit.

[Vaalyah]

I suppose I am really biased, since my PC (being the copy of my pen&paper D&D character) has really high statistics so I have not problem with high strength and high charisma. In this sense, I've never felt the problem you are describing.

[The Fred]

Clerics do suffer slightly from MAD (Multiple Attribute Deficiency). In truth, though, they don't really need that much Charisma, and only need the Strength to be tanks just as Druids would. Of course, being able to get +6 Strength from Divine Favour helps (and there's the old Bard 1/RDD 10 combo which boosts both Str and Cha).

[MANoob]

Bard 1/RDD 10 leaves you with low CL (bad for PvP) and messes up your leveling and low level playablility (bad for PvM). In my opinion divine cheese is really not for clerics, a pure STR battle cleric makes much more sense than EDM one. EDM is for FS.

In low magic there is no way a cleric will match druid's AC. Undispelable crit immunity also counts for something.

Modifié par MANoob, 24 août 2010 - 08:24 .

[Arkalezth]

You can leave the RDD levels for later, if you want better playability. And you can leave it at 4. You won't gain all the benefits of the class, but you'll have an easier time gaining access to EDM while being undispellable.



Yes, that only leaves one class slot (which would be Stormlord most of the time), and it's cheesy, but it's doable. Without RDD, it's pretty hard to fill the requisites. Maybe with an Aasimar.

[The Fred]

I guess since you don't get the Cha bonus 'till L10 it's not really that feasible, but if you were going for pure melee anyway, you could go Bard 1/RDD 4, get +4 to Strength, and take Practised Spellcaster for +4 to CL (leaving you only 1 point down).



I'm not really trying to make a Red Dragon Cleric build, though, just point out that while their attribute spread is worse than a druid's, it's not that much worse.

[MANoob]

Well, that's somewhat far from original druid vs cleric discussion, but I've made a point that divine feats (that were mentioned as one of cleric's pros) aren't for clerics and I'm going to show why I think so.



Basically, with EDM you gain +2 dmg for each 2 points invested in CHA, 2 points invested in STR give you +1 ab and +1 dmg. So basically you are trading 1 permanent ab and 1 dmg for 2 temporary dmg points. You also trade better KD check and resistance for,,, umm, better looks?



You may argue that you can also get divine shield to get more from all that CHA, but it has a very short duration so it needs to be activated just before combat with EDM, that's at least 2 rounds, bad things may happen during these rounds. It's dodge so it's also negated by HIPS and subject to dodge cap you may eventually hit. It also has a very short duration, so your opponent may simply wait it out,

[The Fred]

Oh, Arkalezth beat me to it, but never mind.



So are we basically saying that at low levels, Druids are generally more versetile, but that later on (when they get Divine Power or just generally?) Clerics are more powerful?

[Arkalezth]

Yes, EDM is temporary, but it's, at minimum, 10 divine damage points for 10 rounds, 8 times (I believe) per day. You should have it available for pretty much every combat. More with a higher CHA.



But on topic, RDD or not, Clerics have Turn Undead and can have divine feats, and Druids don't. That's an advantage, even if you don't like the divine feats.

[MANoob]

Ok, so you can have up to 10 bonus dmg for up to 80 rounds. You could have +5 ab and dmg all day long instead, with no need to recast it (and lose actions). I do not dislike divine feats, but they are only good for classes that need high CHA anyway for some other reason.



So in my book, turn undead is not a big advantage for clerics, cause in this case we may also say that poison immunity is a big advantage for a druid,



I agree with Fred's statement about clerics and druids, but it should also be noted that druids are much more competitive in low magic, and only significally lose to clerics in terms of power in high magic settings.



I've also used to play party vs party PvP some time ago (with some modifications to vanilla game of course, but only slight), we often had a druid in our party but no clerics at all and it was quite successful.

[The Fred]

Though most of these bonuses are setting-dependant, undead are a lot more common than poisons. Certainly they're probably more dangerous (especially if you, as a Cleric or Druid, can just heal the latter). Druids only get Venom Immunity at L9, anyway, and their Nature Sense and Trackless step are a bit underwhelming tbh (a few skill points aren't that good in most settings). Woodland Stride (faster movement) is nice, but as with most of the others, it only works outdoors, so what happens when you enter than undead-filled dungeon?

[avado]

Red Wagon wrote...
In fact, I like them so much that I played one through the OC. Since extra wildshape is broken, you effectively have a permanent +7 natural AC, critical and sneak attack immunity, etc.

I know I am a total clueless with druids.  Can someone explain what they mean by "extra wildshape is broken"?  IT has been mentioned a few times and the wiki doesnt talk about it (at least, not what i found).

Thanks

[Haplose]

MANoob wrote...

Well, that's somewhat far from original druid vs cleric discussion, but I've made a point that divine feats (that were mentioned as one of cleric's pros) aren't for clerics and I'm going to show why I think so.

Basically, with EDM you gain +2 dmg for each 2 points invested in CHA, 2 points invested in STR give you +1 ab and +1 dmg. So basically you are trading 1 permanent ab and 1 dmg for 2 temporary dmg points. You also trade better KD check and resistance for,,, umm, better looks?

You may argue that you can also get divine shield to get more from all that CHA, but it has a very short duration so it needs to be activated just before combat with EDM, that's at least 2 rounds, bad things may happen during these rounds. It's dodge so it's also negated by HIPS and subject to dodge cap you may eventually hit. It also has a very short duration, so your opponent may simply wait it out,

I will aruge that Divine Shield does make a huge difference in defence. +8-10 extra AC (cause I assume that if you take the Divine feats you will aim for 21-22 Cha for EDM + buffs/items)? Yes please. That's HUGE. It may be short lived, but you will most likely have at least 8 uses per day - probably more. That's a lot, even if it's shared with EDM.
Speaking of which, EDM will do more like 16-20 extra damage per hit, not 10. Of course it's also multiplied on crits.

[MANoob]

If EDM will do 16 extra dmg form crits you could have about 6 permanent ab and dmg from str instead. Curiously, that dmg multiplies on crits too and extra ab helps you score more hits. As I've allready said, divine shield is very short lived, it lasts so much less than other buffs your opponent may simply wait it out and it's ignored with HIPS many would have, It also takes 1 additional round to activate/reactivate. You know, you may lose half of your HP that round as well. For PvM it's usually more practical to just use all those turnings for EDM. Not saying divine shield is useless but it's questionable for a melee buffbot with several other short duration buffs.
To make this discussion a little less theoretical, show me a good EDM cleric build (which is good for it's purpose, pvm or pvp).

The Fred wrote...

Though most of these bonuses are setting-dependant, undead are a lot more common than poisons. Certainly
they're probably more dangerous (especially if you, as a Cleric or Druid, can just heal the latter). Druids only get Venom Immunity at L9, anyway, and their Nature Sense and Trackless step are a bit underwhelming tbh (a few skill points aren't that good in most settings). Woodland Stride (faster movement) is nice, but as with most of the others, it only works outdoors, so what happens when you enter than undead-filled dungeon?

Practice shows you usually can simply smash undead you'd be able to turn.

Modifié par MANoob, 25 août 2010 - 08:12 .

[The Fred]

That's true, but you risk incurring damage when you have a bunch of undead attacking you, even if they're quite weak. With Turn you can demolish whole mobs of weak ones pretty much for free. I've never considered it to be a massive bonus, but compared with Poison Immunity (particularly on classes with spells to counter it) I'd say it's probably more generally useful - plus you get it at L1, and Druids don't get VI 'till L9, or Wildshape (which I've always founf clunky) until L5.



Also, I know we are talking about the pure classes here, but Clerics combine better with many PrCs, since a lot fo their bonuses come at 1st level (Turn Undead, Domains) whereas Druids must get more Druid levels to get theirs. This means Clerics lose very little (Turn Undead strength maybe?) by taking another class, if it's a spellcasting progression PrC, whereas Druids lose animal companion levels (can be mitigated with Natural Bond, but costs a feat), Wildshape uses and access to class features.

[Haplose]

MANoob wrote...

If EDM will do 16 extra dmg form crits you could have about 6 permanent ab and dmg from str instead. Curiously, that dmg multiplies on crits too and extra ab helps you score more hits. As I've allready said, divine shield is very short lived, it lasts so much less than other buffs your opponent may simply wait it out and it's ignored with HIPS many would have, It also takes 1 additional round to activate/reactivate. You know, you may lose half of your HP that round as well. For PvM it's usually more practical to just use all those turnings for EDM. Not saying divine shield is useless but it's questionable for a melee buffbot with several other short duration buffs.
To make this discussion a little less theoretical, show me a good EDM cleric build (which is good for it's purpose, pvm or pvp).

Well, I guess something along the lines of Divine Lord of Battle by Thorsson would be good.
Myself I would do a few minor modification though: pick Darkness domain, drop 1 RDD level, change Persistant Spell for Practiced Caster and Epic Prowess for Monkey Grip. Proaby also change War domain for Earth (Stoneskin), pick WF normally instead of Toughness.

Modifié par Haplose, 25 août 2010 - 10:49 .

[MANoob]

I won't analyse your suggested changes, I need to see a full build to do that. But no persistant spell is a bad Idea - you'll have to cast another buff just in combat - divine favor.

This build has: CL 24 - will be left naked by a single disjunction usually. I don't have to say that unbuffed stats are horrid. Also someone with higher CL and storm avatar (a high CL druid?) can simply dodge him till his short buffs run out. No quicken spell is bad for a PvP build. Without a shield AC is bad and divine shield won't help vs HIPS. This build will get shredded by a high dmg HIPS build. If disarm lameness is not fixed it will be easily disarmed by a non divine stormlord and some other builds. Thats from pvp perspective.

PvM: doesn't get divine power until level 13(!) and extended until level 15(!). Its divine feats are doing it no good until epic levels. +3 dmg or ac for 3 rounds? No, thanks. High CHA gimps it seriously at low levels. Look at this build at L12. It has a whooping 7 BAB and no divine power and a mighty CL 6 for cleric buffs. A pule L 12 cleric would be much much better. And L 12 is halfway through the non-epic levels. Still I would give Thorsson credit for not dumping WIS too much on this one, 11 WIS clerics allways amused me.

Thorsson is a good builder, but this particular build just isn't very good. This build by the same author is so much better it doesn't even compare. I would still delay all RDD levels till I get L9 spells, possibly with the exception of the 1st one (to unlock spot). I would also drop spellcraft (leaving only 5) for concentration and get Practiced Caster instead VF or Prowes. Or just dump DEX for extra INT and get both spellcraft and concentration. Some ranks in perform are needed as well.
http://nwn2db.com/bu...d=585&version=1

Modifié par MANoob, 25 août 2010 - 12:23 .