38 réponses à ce sujet

[DapperDan77]

[quote]Yrkoon wrote...
I listed the only 2 that any of my two-handers have ever encountered a stamina issue against.    If you've had stamina troubles with more than those two,  then  Perhaps you simply build/use your 2-handers sub-optimally?  if so, then this debate is kinda pointless.  I'm not here to   compare   sub-optimal builds.[/quote]Strawman argument. I never said I had stamina issues, don't twist my words. I said that stamina isn't negated as an issue.


[quote]Yrkoon wrote...Um... no.  I'm not here to entertain alternative definitions of Burst damage, either.  And I don't recall arguing that I'd ever use, or ever need to use, every single one of those talents in one fight.   Usually just a couple of them is enough  to end  just about any of the fights in Awakening.[/quote]"alternative definition"? I dunno about you, but my definition of burst is a high amount of damage in a short amount of time. And no, neither DW or 2-H has to use all their AoE talents in one fight. Why then, did you start a pissing contest about the number of AoE abilities each spec has?

[quote]Yrkoon wrote...
Er... first off, Massacre IS burst damage.  So, as you say,  there's all your trash mobs dead.  That leaves Elites and Bosses.    After a massacre, it  generally takes a single Onslaught   (another burst damage attack) to kill any elite and just about ANY boss.  We cannot say the same for Twin Strikes, or Low blow.   They  neither  have  the number of hits, nor the consistant higher than  critical hit damage for each swing   to compare with Onlaught[/quote]Except that in the time it takes onslaught to animate a DW can hit twin strikes (Which also has bonus damage to it from find vitals) and also several attacks with unending flurry.


[quote]Yrkoon wrote...

Oh?

What's your strength score?  What sustains are you running?  What weapons are you using?[/quote]<--- My profile is thataway.

[quote]Yrkoon wrote...
Ok, this out of context arguing from you is grating on my nerves.   We have already discussed  DPS  and we've agreed on it.  But that passage of mine you quoted here was about non-critical damage as it is applied to AOE talents[/quote]Fair point, I misread that part of your post, my apologies.

 [quote]Yrkoon wrote...LOL 

You're serious, right?  Um no.    There will never come a time  in Awakening when a  Dualwielder's critical damage is higher than a strength built 2-hander's  critical damage.     a two-hander who's NORMAL hit damage  is already  40-50% higher than a dual-wielders, will be doing more damage  with his +60% critical damage modifier than a dualwielder with his 120%. critical  damage modifier.[/quote] You're forgetting that Voice of Velvet has +100% critical damage on it, so that's 220% critical damage compared to 2-H's 60%.

[quote]Yrkoon wrote...
As for crit rates,   2-handers don't need them.  since they can crit AT WILL in any fight.  Yes.  At will.     They have  6, count'em, 6 talents that generate instant criticals.  Meaning  in 99% of the fights in this game, their crit rate will be 100%[/quote] As we've both agreed, those 99% of fights are over in a couple of moves for both specs anyway, for the 1% that are left DW can crit-at-will as well with twin strikes then unending flurry.

[quote]Yrkoon wrote...
[quote]DapperDan77 wrote...
[quote]Yrkoon wrote...
Does your WW do ~200-250 damage per hit?[/quote]What? Yes, easily.[/quote]
Prove it.[/quote]
You realise whirlwind hits with both weapons right? 200-250 damage is easily doable.
And no, I won't "prove it". I suggest you build a DW spirit warrior and see for yourself.

[quote]Yrkoon wrote...
Then this discussion is pointless.[/quote]Was it pointless to come into a thread about DW builds and attack a post about DW builds? Yes, probably.

[quote]Yrkoon wrote...We've come to the conclusion that the two are equal in Awakening, since it doesn't take more than  a couple of activated talents to end those fights.
[/quote]You may have come to that conclusion. Personally, I think DW is superior.

Modifié par DapperDan77, 16 août 2010 - 05:44 .

[rayzorium]

2H is incredibly crippled by only having three weapon rune slots and not being able to take advantage of Voice of Velvet. Your criticals are doing 210% while DWers are doing 350% with two weapon runes still free. Yrkoon, you yourself said that 2H noncrits are twice as damaging as 1H noncrits. Since DW attacks use both weapons, this makes Whirlwind and Low Blow damage better than 2H talent damage, a gap that only increases with more crit. This also makes single target DPS, burst or no, a landslide in DW's favor, but nobody is denying that.

Still, it's difficult to seriously consider how much damage certain skills do when even Nightmare enemies die by the score when you so much as breathe on them. When moving at a decent pace, however, I've found that my AoE abilities are often still cooling down as I encounter the next group. 2H users have more AoE abilities at their disposal, so they're less likely to run into this problem. Even though, like DapperDan, I find 2H AoE more difficult to set up, in the hands of a more experienced player, I'd decisively give the AoE crown to 2H.

One thing, though...

DapperDan77 wrote...
Dual wield (spirit) warriors in Awakening have the highest single targetDPS by a large margin

I wouldn't be surprised, per se, but I'd love to see anyone beating 950 sustained DPS by a large margin. Okay, not quite 950, but it would've easily been if he had popped a Swift Salve, and it would've been way more if his entire party hadn't been dead the whole time. If you do find something that beats that by a large margin, however, I'll record and post my 1400 DPS kill. Hell, I'd post it now if I could, but I don't have the necessary equipment (if anyone knows any cheap but good capture cards, I'd be most appreciative).

It's not that I doubt the power of Spirit Warriors - nobody's jaw hit the floor harder than mine when I saw 1000+ Massacres. I'm actually half-expecting to beat my rogue's record with my current warrior's playthrough, but sadly won't have access to my 360 for quite some time. =(

Modifié par rayzorium, 16 août 2010 - 11:42 .

[DapperDan77]

rayzorium wrote...

I wouldn't be surprised, per se, but I'd love to see anyone beating 950 sustained DPS by a large margin. Okay, not quite 950, but it would've easily been if he had popped a Swift Salve, and it would've been way more if his entire party hadn't been dead the whole time. If you do find something that beats that by a large margin, however, I'll record and post my 1400 DPS kill. Hell, I'd post it now if I could, but I don't have the necessary equipment (if anyone knows any cheap but good capture cards, I'd be most appreciative).

Wow that's an impressive video for sure  I just made a vid of the same Armoured Ogre fight, am uploading it now (60 mins left until uploaded. ugh - hate slow broadband >.<). Will post a link to it once it's finished.

Unlike the rogue in that vid though, I did manage to have all my party alive so I had party buffs unlike him.
Without sitting down and counting it exactly frame-by-frame, I estimate I managed about 1200 DPS. Over a four second period I managed to hit for 890, 1076, 798, 1418 and 625. Added together and divided by 4 comes out to about 1200 DPS. That isn't including flaming weapons which was about another +50 dmg each hit. Now obviously, without party support I wouldn't have come close to that. That rogue would surely out-DPS a spirit warrior if the SW was solo, like that rogue was. But that's the main caveat of spirit warriors. They do incredible damage, but are very reliant on support. We need a mage for hexes (luckily hexes are short CD and very cheap mana cost), and if possible a rogue too for weak points and Mark of Death.

As for your 1400 DPS kill, I'd love to see it Can I ask what class/spec that was? I'm gonna throw a completely random guess out there...spirit warrior archer? Or maybe rogue backstabber?

~EDIT~ My vid finished uploading. Here. Sorry for the crappy quality. It's my first ever fraps capture/youtube upload, so it's fairly unpolished lol
~EDIT 2~ While I was at it, I frapsed some other stuff. Soloing The Baroness on nightmare and Super fast Mother kill.

Modifié par DapperDan77, 17 août 2010 - 12:43 .

[DapperDan77]

Cypher0020 wrote...

@ Dapper

I was gonna focus on sword main hand and dagger in the off hand....kinda copied Duncan's style of sword play.....

So keep 30 Dex for that, max strength.....and Cons, Will, etc...I guess don't apply?

I took Sten to fight the archdemon...he's a THer but he keeps dying faster than my rogue did...ad he had 50 points instrength

Sincerest apologies, I totally missed your post I got too caught up arguing, my bad.
You pretty much hit the nail on the head. 30 Dex for talents (36 if you wanna use something other than a dagger off-hand), the rest in strength. I'd personally go with 16 cun too, so you can max coercion. If you're happy without coercion though, then obv. min cunning.
For maximum damage, axe mainhand is better than sword (specifically, The Veshialle), unfortunately The Veshialle is a very dinky looking axe, and just doesn't "look" right as a mainhand weapon. Starfang looks exactly 87,000 times better than Veshialle for a mainhand weapon. If you don't care about looks or using swords for RP reasons then Veshialle is the go, but otherwise use Starfang for MH, and Rose's Thorn for offhand.
 Personally, for my DW warrior in Origins I went 36 Dex and had Starfang MH and Veshialle OH. Slightly less-than-optimal damage compared to Axe/Dagger, but at least I was stylin' =)
Sten dying faster than a rogue doesn't surprise me. He may have more armour than a rogue, but a rogue gets buckets of defence from all that dex.
 

Modifié par DapperDan77, 17 août 2010 - 12:25 .

[rayzorium]

Hooooooly cow. I certainly wasn't expecting that. I think that was closer to 3 seconds, and I won't let you exclude Flaming Weapons, and it just feels wrong to penalize you for your character scooting back and forth. Sword/dagger base attack speed is 1.2, and goes down to 0.72 with Momentum + Blessing of the Fade + Precise Striking (0.6 if you replace Momentum with Blood Thirst + Swift Salve). It would have been 1400 if the ogre hadn't shoved you, and nearly 1700 if you had capped your attack speed.

A few questions about the video, though - what was that first resist? I thought it was taunt at first, but it almost looks like it was Vulnerability Hex (and I shudder to think your DPS would have gone up by a few hundred more if that's the case). Also, your description mentions six armor runes - I thought you could only have three?

Anyway, my 1400 kill was with a rogue. My party was applying armor reduction buffs/debuffs (although I think Flaming Weapons would have been better than Telekinetic now, especially since his armor might have been 0 without it anyways) as well as various attack/defense buffs/debuffs. With The Tainted Blade, I was backstabbing for around 700, at 0.5 attack speed (Momentum + Swift Salve). I'll see about getting a video up as soon as I fly back home.

[DapperDan77]

rayzorium wrote...

A few questions about the video, though - what was that first resist? I thought it was taunt at first, but it almost looks like it was Vulnerability Hex (and I shudder to think your DPS would have gone up by a few hundred more if that's the case). Also, your description mentions six armor runes - I thought you could only have three?

Yeah at first I thought that resist was the Hex, but you can clearly see the white glowy hex under the ogres feet, so it definitely landed. I think it was Justice's taunt that resisted, the ogre just happened to go straight to him, making it seem like the taunt hit.
As for armor runes, 3 in chestpiece, 1 each in helm, gloves and boots.

rayzorium wrote...
Anyway,my 1400 kill was with a rogue. My party was applying armor reduction buffs/debuffs (although I think Flaming Weapons would have been better than Telekinetic now, especially since his armor might have been 0 without it anyways) as well as various attack/defense buffs/debuffs. With The Tainted Blade, I was backstabbing for around 700, at 0.5 attack speed (Momentum + Swift Salve). I'll see about getting a video up as soon as I fly back home.

Rogue huh? Good to know =) The character I'm currently building up is rogue.
I know exactly what you mean about tele weapons too. I used it all through Origins without thinking twice, but in Awakening being unsure about monster armour levels and aware of an ever-increasing amount of armour pen on my party, I switched to flaming throughout awakening. Which of course also had the benefit of being buffed by the Hexes my pet Anders was throwing about for me.

Modifié par DapperDan77, 17 août 2010 - 01:32 .

[Ameanor]

Last Darkness wrote...

Copy and Pasted from another thread of mine.

Build 1

Str 38 at least (With Buffs) so you can Wear Evons+Wades Armor

Dex MAX (as much as possible)

Spec - Berserker/Champion

Weapons Daggers (The Roses Thorn, The Edge, Fang)

Build allows for great offense and defensive ability. Your going to want to auto attack more with his build then activly use attack skills, You will want to use as many sustainables like Momentum, Blood Thirst, Rally as you can since your not using you stamina as much. You will easily be able to hit the +50% attack speed cap and with daggers thats attacking super fast and they have naturaly very high armor penetration. You will want to put your best elemental damage runes into the daggers for more damage per hit (Idealy +8 from Berserk, +15 from 3 diff elemental damage runes in the daggers) use a Mage in your party to debuff your targets elemental resitances for more damage. Use Warcry well for its debuff and knockdown ability. With this build you will have a execellent defense and get about +20 from using Champion skills properly(+10 Def from rally and +10 basicaly from the -10 attack debuff on enemies from Warcry)

Question... Momentum + Blood thirst brings you to +50% attack speed yes? what will happen if Haste is thrown into the mix?

[DapperDan77]

You end up gimped is what happens. Instead of capping at 50% and staying there, any haste effects above 50% reset your swing timer back down to base speeds or thereabouts. It is fixable, I think the Awakenings plus mod fixes the bug (for both Origins and Awakening). If you want just the haste fix without the rest of the awakening plus stuff, you can just pull out spell_modal.ncs from the "Bugs and quality of life" folder and stick it in your override folder. Pretty sure that'll work.
Although you may also want to install "power of blood fixes" from Awakening plus if you're going to be using death wish. It stops the health drain and associated head-bobbing (but only while out of combat, in combat you still suffer the HP loss over time).
When I played my DW warrior through Origins, I ran momentum + haste + precise striking (which has a -10% attack speed penalty in exchange for +attack and bucketloads of crit) which totalled is 45% I think. Main reason for that though was I wasn't aware of a mod fix for blood powers at the time, and the head bobbing annoyed me too much.

Modifié par DapperDan77, 17 août 2010 - 04:45 .

[rayzorium]

This just occurred to me, and you might be slightly disappointed at your rogue's damage - I haven't played my rogue since the 1.04 patch, which is the one that finally fixed the dex bug on consoles. The dex bug made dex dagger builds unusable, but it also also doubled AttributeBasedDmg from cunning - it made daggers scale twice as well before talents. The fix, while necessary, was quite a blow to cunning DPS. =(



Still, makes me even more anxious to see what rogues are still capable of.

[Last Darkness]

Ameanor wrote...

Last Darkness wrote...

Copy and Pasted from another thread of mine.

Build 1

Str 38 at least (With Buffs) so you can Wear Evons+Wades Armor

Dex MAX (as much as possible)

Spec - Berserker/Champion

Weapons Daggers (The Roses Thorn, The Edge, Fang)

Build allows for great offense and defensive ability. Your going to want to auto attack more with his build then activly use attack skills, You will want to use as many sustainables like Momentum, Blood Thirst, Rally as you can since your not using you stamina as much. You will easily be able to hit the +50% attack speed cap and with daggers thats attacking super fast and they have naturaly very high armor penetration. You will want to put your best elemental damage runes into the daggers for more damage per hit (Idealy +8 from Berserk, +15 from 3 diff elemental damage runes in the daggers) use a Mage in your party to debuff your targets elemental resitances for more damage. Use Warcry well for its debuff and knockdown ability. With this build you will have a execellent defense and get about +20 from using Champion skills properly(+10 Def from rally and +10 basicaly from the -10 attack debuff on enemies from Warcry)

Question... Momentum + Blood thirst brings you to +50% attack speed yes? what will happen if Haste is thrown into the mix?

Rolled over to -25% attack speed in essence.

[DapperDan77]

rayzorium wrote...

Sword/dagger base attack speed is 1.2, and goes down to 0.72 with Momentum + Blessing of the Fade + Precise Striking (0.6 if you replace Momentum with Blood Thirst + Swift Salve). It would have been 1400 if the ogre hadn't shoved you, and nearly 1700 if you had capped your attack speed.

My characters runes are actually sub-optimal, I should have ditched 2 Intensifying Runes (my crit/backstab damage is 40 over the cap) and put in 2x momentum runes, which would have capped my attack speed. I just never ended up getting around to it, as I found runecrafting a massive chore.

[Monica21]

DapperDan77 wrote...
~EDIT~ My vid finished uploading. Here. Sorry for the crappy quality. It's my first ever fraps capture/youtube upload, so it's fairly unpolished lol
~EDIT 2~ While I was at it, I frapsed some other stuff. Soloing The Baroness on nightmare and Super fast Mother kill.

Hole Lee ****e. (That last word will probably get asteriske'd, but you know what I mean.) And that's really all I have to add to this thread.

[rayzorium]

DapperDan77 wrote...

As for armor runes, 3 in chestpiece, 1 each in helm, gloves and boots.

Do you have a mod that adds rune slots? I can only put armor runes into chestpieces.

Modifié par rayzorium, 19 août 2010 - 05:46 .

[DapperDan77]

rayzorium wrote...

DapperDan77 wrote...

As for armor runes, 3 in chestpiece, 1 each in helm, gloves and boots.

Do you have a mod that adds rune slots? I can only put armor runes into chestpieces.

AH CRAP!
Turns out it was an optional fix (the purpose of which I completely misunderstood) for the no helmet hack that added the extra rune slots to gloves etc. *;..;* I never even realised there were only meant to be slots on chestpiece lol.
The LAST thing I ever want to do is make this game any easier, jeez >.> Luckily they were only will runes I guess, at least I didn't accidentally boost any damage related stats. I can live with having accidentally boosted my willpower by 21. Though saying that, I only put the +7 will runes in towards the end of the game, most of the game those slots just had novice or journeyman reservoirs in them.
If it'd been extra elemental runes or anything else that affects damage directly then I would feel compelled to delete that whole campaign and play through again "legitimately" lol.
It's still very annoying though >.< I might have to redo that campaign now anyway. Maybe I'll go through it as a spirit warrior archer this time, I hear good things about them.

Modifié par DapperDan77, 19 août 2010 - 11:17 .