151 réponses à ce sujet

[filetemo]

jln.francisco wrote...

filetemo wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...


Stop trying to force a connection to real world religion.

chantry religion has a god, a prophet and an original sin, so it's based on real world religions

A lot of religions have that. It's a common archetype in mythology.

Then making a connection between the chantry and catholicism is not forcing up anything

[In Exile]

captain.subtle wrote...

There is afterlife if the comics are canon.

Souls are cannon. They have to be, based on how the archdemon works. There is no direct evidence of any sort of diety in game, but at the very least compared to material reality, there are very different kinds of evidence that are admissible, for one, and we have confirmation of one metaphysical entity.

filetemo wrote...

where do they come from then? what's an
archdemon if it's not an old god? can anybody come with a better
explanation?

One can be true without the other, though. So old gods may well be real, and the blight may well corrupt them, but that isn't proof confirmation of the existence of the maker. It is only proof for the existence of the old gods.

And we have proof at the very least that those dragons that lead a bight are special; the song, in particular.So while we cannot say whether or not an archdemon is a god, there is something about it.

At the same time, the high dragon in Haven did have some power, and its blood was used to make the Reavers, so whether dragons themselves are mystical in some way, whether the blight is special in its effect on dragons, or whether they are something else entirely is still up for debate.

[captain.subtle]

jln.francisco wrote...

captain.subtle wrote...

@francisco:

No I don't. How does my knowledge of mythology connect to lore in the DA?

You'd know just how different mythology can be and wouldn't assume an afterlife requires a creator deity.

You mean buddhism? Do you?

[filetemo]

AntiChri5 wrote...
 your attempt to get the thread completely derailed by trying to make it about our real world religious views

I did not do that and you know it, at the start of this thread, I pointed how the DA lore points out to really being a maker, not to the atheist side, then you jumped at me and said "you didn't care to explain".

And when finally you did, you were proven wrong by capt. subtle a few times.

this is the story so far of this thread

[In Exile]

captain.subtle wrote...
OK.

Current knowldge of the lore tells us:

1) There is magic
2) There are spirits
3) There is a Black city
4) There is an afterlife (comic)

Unless you think you have arguments based on actual lore against this there is a good chance that there may be a creator.

Based on if aliens, then Jesus logic? Let's use a science analogy, here. If we predict the existence of particular particle via particle physics because we expect it to be there, the appropriate way to refer to it is not that there s a good chance the particle is there, but that we have good reasons to believe it is there.

The issue with the religion (in DA and elsewhere) is that religion is exclusively explanatory. And we can create a lot of wrong theories that fully explain everything we know. A good standard for our theories is if they tell us things that we don't know are true or false, and we find them to be true or false later. That we can take as evidence of reality.

But there is no neccesary connection between all those things and a creator, and hence the problem.

Put another way: if we see a bush rustle, there are good reasons to expect an aminal may be there, but that does not mean there is a good chance an animal is there, or that an aminal is there.

[captain.subtle]

In Exile wrote...

captain.subtle wrote...

There is afterlife if the comics are canon.

Souls are cannon. They have to be, based on how the archdemon works. There is no direct evidence of any sort of diety in game, but at the very least compared to material reality, there are very different kinds of evidence that are admissible, for one, and we have confirmation of one metaphysical entity.

filetemo wrote...

where do they come from then? what's an
archdemon if it's not an old god? can anybody come with a better
explanation?

One can be true without the other, though. So old gods may well be real, and the blight may well corrupt them, but that isn't proof confirmation of the existence of the maker. It is only proof for the existence of the old gods.

And we have proof at the very least that those dragons that lead a bight are special; the song, in particular.So while we cannot say whether or not an archdemon is a god, there is something about it.

At the same time, the high dragon in Haven did have some power, and its blood was used to make the Reavers, so whether dragons themselves are mystical in some way, whether the blight is special in its effect on dragons, or whether they are something else entirely is still up for debate.

Glad to see you.

So I just want to put this past you:

1) what are your thoughts on the Golden city
2) What about the Guardian at the Temple (If I am not wrong, he was NOT an ash wraith like the others)
3) What about the existance of magic in any setting?

Modifié par captain.subtle, 14 août 2010 - 11:12 .

[filetemo]

In Exile wrote...

captain.subtle wrote...
OK.

Current knowldge of the lore tells us:

1) There is magic
2) There are spirits
3) There is a Black city
4) There is an afterlife (comic)

Unless you think you have arguments based on actual lore against this there is a good chance that there may be a creator.

Based on if aliens, then Jesus logic? Let's use a science analogy, here.

this is a fantasy setting, were not trying to prove god's existence in real life. In a fantasy setting, if the lore points at the existence of a god, there will probably be a god. Since in a fantasy setting things happen by intelligent design, the chance of being a maker is very high

[AntiChri5]

filetemo wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...
 your attempt to get the thread completely derailed by trying to make it about our real world religious views

I did not do that and you know it, at the start of this thread, I pointed how the DA lore points out to really being a maker, not to the atheist side, then you jumped at me and said "you didn't care to explain".

And when finally you did, you were proven wrong by capt. subtle a few times.

this is the story so far of this thread

filetemo wrote...

jln.francisco wrote...

filetemo wrote...

jln.francisco wrote...

filetemo wrote...

so you do not believe the dragon age world was created by intelligent design then? it just spawned from nowhere? the same for the fade?

where the **** did that just come from?

answer the question

Make some damn sense.

do you believe the world of dragon age and the fade were created by intelligent design yes or not?

filetemo wrote...

captain.subtle wrote...

I would like to point out that Chantry's maker may not be the real creator if there is one. Chantry being wrong does not automatically mean that there is no creator.

God, Allah, Buddah, Maker, Raptor Jesus

I never "jumped at you", And I dont remember being proven wrong, we simply had contradictory sources.

Modifié par AntiChri5, 14 août 2010 - 11:17 .

[filetemo]

AntiChri5 wrote...



And I dont remember being proven wrong, we simply had contradictory sources.

both sources said the exact same, but your source allowed you to twist a paragraph to suit your need to classify the black city as a "non-constant object in the fade"

[AntiChri5]

filetemo wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...



And I dont remember being proven wrong, we simply had contradictory sources.

both sources said the exact same, but your source allowed you to twist a paragraph to suit your need to classify the black city as a "non-constant object in the fade"

You already said that, and i already pointed out it is wrong. That never happened.

re-read what i wrote, and what i quoted, with your brain on this time.

Here, i will make it easy for you:

AntiChri5 wrote...

captain.subtle wrote...

I would like to point out (for the above discussion) that the Golden city precedes all the civs (perhaps even Elven).

Source?

Elves are the oldest civs known and their thoelogy starts with a preformed world. One may assume that the Fade exists at least since then or before.

The Golden city is NOT a random object in the fade, It is the only unchanging thing there. That means it was not created by Spirits whose creations change constantly. I wonder who created it.

Wrong.

The Codex......
No traveler to the Fade can fail to spot the Black City. It is one of the few constants of that ever-changing place. No matter where one might be, the city is visible. (Always far off, for it seems that the only rule of geography in the Fade is that all points are equidistant from the Black City.)
The Chant teaches that the Black City was once the seat of theMaker, from whence He ruled the Fade, left empty when men turned away from Him. Dreamers do not go there, nor do spirits. Even the most powerful demons seem to avoid the place.
It was golden and beautiful once, so the story goes, until a group of powerful magister-lords from the Tevinter Imperium devised a means of breaking in. When they did so, their presence defiled the city, turning it black. (Which was, perhaps, the least of their worries.)
--From Beyond the Veil: Spirits and Demons, by Enchanter Mirdromel

Aaaaand here is where i pointed it out to you before:

AntiChri5 wrote...

filetemo wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

captain.subtle wrote...

Black city is the ONLy constant feature.

http://old.dragonage...ngle/1248534720

Looks like we have a lore contradiction here.

no we don't, you desperately held on the black city "changing of color when the magisters entered it" to call it a non-constant for that simple detail.

No, i didnt.

The Codex entry i quoted describes it as ONE OF the only constant locations.

Modifié par AntiChri5, 14 août 2010 - 11:24 .

[captain.subtle]

jln.francisco wrote...

captain.subtle wrote...

jln.francisco wrote...

captain.subtle wrote...

@francisco:

No I don't. How does my knowledge of mythology connect to lore in the DA?

You'd know just how different mythology can be and wouldn't assume an afterlife requires a creator deity.

You mean buddhism? Do you?

No I don't but sure why not.

What other Ancient religion has afterlife and NO gods? (Actually Buddhism does not count... it derived from Hindoo beliefs).

[In Exile]

filetemo wrote...

this is a fantasy setting, were not trying to prove god's existence in real life. In a fantasy setting, if the lore points at the existence of a god, there will probably be a god. Since in a fantasy setting things happen by intelligent design, the chance of being a maker is very high

Ok, I see what you're saying. Yeah, if take the meta-perspective for a second, I would be really surprised if some kind of divine or otherwise godlike being wasn't the source of anything in a fantasy setting, if the intention was to some kind of God (though potentially misunderstood) exist.

From the non-meta perspective, though, just looking at the evidence without reasoning about the motives of the writers, we really do not have good evidence for a diety, because we have to apply the same standards of evidence in the setting we do here. The problem with proving something exists is that nothing proves the thing exists except for its own existence.

[captain.subtle]

In Exile wrote...

filetemo wrote...

this is a fantasy setting, were not trying to prove god's existence in real life. In a fantasy setting, if the lore points at the existence of a god, there will probably be a god. Since in a fantasy setting things happen by intelligent design, the chance of being a maker is very high

Ok, I see what you're saying. Yeah, if take the meta-perspective for a second, I would be really surprised if some kind of divine or otherwise godlike being wasn't the source of anything in a fantasy setting, if the intention was to some kind of God (though potentially misunderstood) exist.

From the non-meta perspective, though, just looking at the evidence without reasoning about the motives of the writers, we really do not have good evidence for a diety, because we have to apply the same standards of evidence in the setting we do here. The problem with proving something exists is that nothing proves the thing exists except for its own existence.

So... err... How do you define magic?

[filetemo]

but we do have a meta-perspective, we are players of the game and we can assume there is a god. Fereldans can't, but that's irrelevant since they are fictional characters and the lore is written in a way that hints the maker at us, not at them

[AlanC9]

filetemo wrote...
this is a fantasy setting, were not trying to prove god's existence in real life. In a fantasy setting, if the lore points at the existence of a god, there will probably be a god. Since in a fantasy setting things happen by intelligent design, the chance of being a maker is very high

Intelligence, sure, but why a single Maker? When we see a city in the real world, we assume it's the product of thousands of individual entities rather than a single being. 

[captain.subtle]

AlanC9 wrote...

filetemo wrote...
this is a fantasy setting, were not trying to prove god's existence in real life. In a fantasy setting, if the lore points at the existence of a god, there will probably be a god. Since in a fantasy setting things happen by intelligent design, the chance of being a maker is very high

Intelligence, sure, but why a single Maker? When we see a city in the real world, we assume it's the product of thousands of individual entities rather than a single being. 

Good point. There can be multiple creators.... Why just have one?

Modifié par captain.subtle, 14 août 2010 - 11:31 .

[filetemo]

AlanC9 wrote...

filetemo wrote...
this is a fantasy setting, were not trying to prove god's existence in real life. In a fantasy setting, if the lore points at the existence of a god, there will probably be a god. Since in a fantasy setting things happen by intelligent design, the chance of being a maker is very high

Intelligence, sure, but why a single Maker? When we see a city in the real world, we assume it's the product of thousands of individual entities rather than a single being. 

the point I am trying to make is indeed there's a creator, an omnipotent being creator of all beings. it may be a different version of the chantry's maker, it may be an alamarri god, or it even may be the maker was the eight old god, or even maybe the old gods created the world and then fought over his control, it doesn't matter, the fact is we are proving there's indeed a divine figure in DA, may the chantry version be, or not.

[AntiChri5]

filetemo wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

filetemo wrote...
this is a fantasy setting, were not trying to prove god's existence in real life. In a fantasy setting, if the lore points at the existence of a god, there will probably be a god. Since in a fantasy setting things happen by intelligent design, the chance of being a maker is very high

Intelligence, sure, but why a single Maker? When we see a city in the real world, we assume it's the product of thousands of individual entities rather than a single being. 

the point I am trying to make is indeed there's a creator, an omnipotent being creator of all beings. it may be a different version of the chantry's maker, it may be an alamarri god, or it even may be the maker was the eight old god, or even maybe the old gods created the world and then fought over his control, it doesn't matter, the fact is we are proving there's indeed a divine figure in DA, may the chantry version be, or not.

But there is no evidence for that.

[AlanC9]

filetemo wrote...

the point I am trying to make is indeed there's a creator, an omnipotent being creator of all beings. it may be a different version of the chantry's maker, it may be an alamarri god, or it even may be the maker was the eight old god, or even maybe the old gods created the world and then fought over his control, it doesn't matter, the fact is we are proving there's indeed a divine figure in DA, may the chantry version be, or not.

The problem is you aren't actually providing an argument for that view. Intelligent design doesn't presuppose a single entity even if we concede that there's evidence of intelligent design in the DA universe.  I'm just giving you that one for free, btw -- a city in the Fade isn't evidence of anything about the universe, any more than a city on Thedas would be.

[filetemo]

AntiChri5 wrote...
But there is no evidence for that.

circular arguments will not make look you smarter, nor can you win by exhaustion since already proved wrong, no matter how much you deny it.

Modifié par filetemo, 14 août 2010 - 11:41 .

[Daryn Mercio]

Oblivious wrote...

No gods, no after life, no downside to Blood Magic (except for the occasional sacrifice) etc...

Think of DA1 as 1200 Europe and DA2 as the beginning of the Renaissance where people stopped burning each other and books for a change and instead began burning those lies they were fed.

The burning of books during the Bonfire of the Vanities happened during the mid-Renaissance