151 réponses à ce sujet

[captain.subtle]

David Gaider hinted that there is a possibility that there can be a monotheistic creator. I will soon link you to that post.

http://social.biowar...508455/3#509837

Modifié par captain.subtle, 14 août 2010 - 11:46 .

[filetemo]

AlanC9 wrote...

Intelligent design doesn't presuppose a single entity even if we concede that there's evidence of intelligent design in the DA universe

I'll gladly concede you that there's much more chance of being several creators, than none at all

[AntiChri5]

filetemo wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...
But there is no evidence for that.

circular arguments will not make look you smarter, nor can you win by exhaustion since already proved wrong, no matter how much you deny it.

Point out how i was proved wrong?

And "you need evidence to back up your theories" is a circular argument?

[In Exile]

captain.subtle wrote...

1) what are your thoughts on the Golden city

David confirmed it was the golden city before the black city in one thread, but even without that, we should have very good reasons to believe it exists. Despite the fact that a lot of lore was lost during the first blight regarding what happened in the first blight, Minrathos in Tevinter was never sacked by the darkspawn.

The mages enter the Fade, and since they have eyes, they can easily notice the thing that was always golden and beautiful suddenly stopped being golden and beautiful. I do not think this is something you can simply fake via propaganda.

More to the point, even if the golden city never existed and it was always the black city, that still raises the question of why there is a fixed point so abominable in the Fade as a permanent feature. The darkspawn taint is very real, we have good evidence that there is something about the archdemon that drives the blight, and we as the player experience a small part of the call of the archdemon.

So the belief that the darkspawn are related to the black city in some way, and that it was the golden city, IMO, is a good one. There is no way we can be sure; but in this regard, at least, the preponderance of evidence is overwhelming.

2) What about the Guardian at the Temple (If I am not wrong, he was NOT an ash wraith like the others)

The guardian is a bit of a mystery. It knew things you would not expect anything short of a fade spirit/demon to know (we see that the Sloth demon can read minds, so we know mind reading by creatures of the fade is possible) so it may well be that lyrium allowed it to enter through the fade into our world. I personally do not like that theory, because of the spirits we did see (particularly Justice) they were well aware of our world and being in it. That would mean accusing the Guardian of deception without the player learning it, and I think suppositions of this sort (lore or in-game content is unreliable) are poor ones.

My personal theory is that the nature of magic - making things real by virtue of your will (see particularly the speech of the Spirit of Valor in the Mage Origin) - combined with the heayv concentration of lyrium, the will of the disciples of Andraste they could simply have left impressions of themselves there, which manifested as wraiths. We have seen manifestations of memories before, when the Veil is torn, so there seems to be some kind of imprinting that happens when the Veil is weak. Lyrium allows you to cross into the Fade, so it may well be that it does something even beyond this.

We know souls exist in dragon age, so it may well be that lyrium in heavy quantities, plus magic, plus a fevered will create the sort of being we saw the Guardian, as the strongest possible kind of imprinting. It may well be that, as we see with Nial who was trapped in the Fade, a soul combined with Lyrium in the particular quantity becomes a Fade spirit in some way.

The thing that makes me skeptical of the Guardian as a divine creation is what it knew. It knows exactly what happened to the believers in the village, and it knows exactly what happened to your companions in its presence, but what it does not know is what happens outside the temple.

That makes me think it is anchored there.

All in all, we have absolutely no evidence to judge it either way. We could say that somehow it was lyrium related, per Oghren's comments, so we resort to "I have no idea how it worked, but magic did it!" or we take the view of the Chantry, which amounts to "I have no idea how it worked, but the Maker did it!"

Essentially, we have no explanation either way.

3) What about the existance of magic in any setting?

I just take it as a law of nature, like gravity. We can say how it operates, since in principle there are rules (but in practice it does whatever the writers want), but we cannot say why it is there more than saying it is a fundamental feature of how the world is.

That being said, as to what magic is, I think it is willpower made real. In Dragon Age, it seems that your desire for things to be true in some way can make them true. The Fade, I think, is the result of the collective unconscious of humanity (and elves, and potentially even dwarves, prior to their lyrium exposure). We have fears, we have hopes and these things we believe in so strongly, as an entire group, that we make them real just as a mage makes fire real.

Personally, I think an entity like the Maker can exist simply because people believe in it, and believe in it so strongly that belief will make it come about. It would not be a creator god so much as a supreme Fade spirit, but in a very meaningful way it would be the Maker.

[In Exile]

captain.subtle wrote...

So... err... How do you define magic?

Well, in-game, magic is obviously real. You don't need evidence for it - Morrigan can turn into a giant for your convenience, after all. We know a bit about how it works. Or at the very least, the characters in-game know about how it works.

As to the more general question, in this setting magic is the process of creating something using only willpower alone. There is a talent prerequisite for it, so to speak, but in terms of how it operates for those who can use it, effectively they channel mana (which is quantifiable, apparently, or their notion of magical essence) and combine it with their desire to make something real and make that thing real.

There are some reality bending things it cannot do, but creation ex nihilo is fine for it.

[AlanC9]

In Exile wrote...
Personally, I think an entity like the Maker can exist simply because people believe in it, and believe in it so strongly that belief will make it come about. It would not be a creator god so much as a supreme Fade spirit, but in a very meaningful way it would be the Maker. 

Except, of course, that it would not have actually done any Making. Would it know that?

[captain.subtle]

In Exile wrote...

captain.subtle wrote...

1) what are your thoughts on the Golden city

David confirmed it was the golden city before the black city in one thread, but even without that, we should have very good reasons to believe it exists. Despite the fact that a lot of lore was lost during the first blight regarding what happened in the first blight, Minrathos in Tevinter was never sacked by the darkspawn.

The mages enter the Fade, and since they have eyes, they can easily notice the thing that was always golden and beautiful suddenly stopped being golden and beautiful. I do not think this is something you can simply fake via propaganda.

More to the point, even if the golden city never existed and it was always the black city, that still raises the question of why there is a fixed point so abominable in the Fade as a permanent feature. The darkspawn taint is very real, we have good evidence that there is something about the archdemon that drives the blight, and we as the player experience a small part of the call of the archdemon.

So the belief that the darkspawn are related to the black city in some way, and that it was the golden city, IMO, is a good one. There is no way we can be sure; but in this regard, at least, the preponderance of evidence is overwhelming.

To the point.... Very nice. Your performance is great as usual.

2) What about the Guardian at the Temple (If I am not wrong, he was NOT an ash wraith like the others)

The guardian is a bit of a mystery. It knew things you would not expect anything short of a fade spirit/demon to know (we see that the Sloth demon can read minds, so we know mind reading by creatures of the fade is possible) so it may well be that lyrium allowed it to enter through the fade into our world. I personally do not like that theory, because of the spirits we did see (particularly Justice) they were well aware of our world and being in it. That would mean accusing the Guardian of deception without the player learning it, and I think suppositions of this sort (lore or in-game content is unreliable) are poor ones.

My personal theory is that the nature of magic - making things real by virtue of your will (see particularly the speech of the Spirit of Valor in the Mage Origin) - combined with the heayv concentration of lyrium, the will of the disciples of Andraste they could simply have left impressions of themselves there, which manifested as wraiths. We have seen manifestations of memories before, when the Veil is torn, so there seems to be some kind of imprinting that happens when the Veil is weak. Lyrium allows you to cross into the Fade, so it may well be that it does something even beyond this.

We know souls exist in dragon age, so it may well be that lyrium in heavy quantities, plus magic, plus a fevered will create the sort of being we saw the Guardian, as the strongest possible kind of imprinting. It may well be that, as we see with Nial who was trapped in the Fade, a soul combined with Lyrium in the particular quantity becomes a Fade spirit in some way.

The thing that makes me skeptical of the Guardian as a divine creation is what it knew. It knows exactly what happened to the believers in the village, and it knows exactly what happened to your companions in its presence, but what it does not know is what happens outside the temple.

That makes me think it is anchored there.

All in all, we have absolutely no evidence to judge it either way. We could say that somehow it was lyrium related, per Oghren's comments, so we resort to "I have no idea how it worked, but magic did it!" or we take the view of the Chantry, which amounts to "I have no idea how it worked, but the Maker did it!"

Essentially, we have no explanation either way.

I think he is not a spirit neither the effect of Lyrium. He is a human being made ageless somehow. I would argue it this way:

The rest of the "spirits" in the Temple are Ash wraiths disguised as Characters. They are essentially analogous to interactive holograms with restricted responses. Their function is double edged: Attack those who give the wrong resposne or open the door.

The guardian on the other hand is perfectly real in the sense, that he fights like a Human and dies to leave a body behind. I have NO means to explaining his telepathy. Sloth demons can do that, yes, so he may have been infused with a spirit like Wynne (making him Functionally ageless). But we have no evidence of spirits being telepatic (Justice). Just sloth demons. And they too are telepathic only when they have put you to sleep, not when you are conscious as far as we know.

So the Guardian is a special thing. He claims that he just swore an oath and became what he was. IFF he is telling the truth, I would suspect some kind of divine intervention. He does not seem like the lying sort though.

Any thoughts?

3) What about the existance of magic in any setting?

I just take it as a law of nature, like gravity. We can say how it operates, since in principle there are rules (but in practice it does whatever the writers want), but we cannot say why it is there more than saying it is a fundamental feature of how the world is.

That being said, as to what magic is, I think it is willpower made real. In Dragon Age, it seems that your desire for things to be true in some way can make them true. The Fade, I think, is the result of the collective unconscious of humanity (and elves, and potentially even dwarves, prior to their lyrium exposure). We have fears, we have hopes and these things we believe in so strongly, as an entire group, that we make them real just as a mage makes fire real.

Personally, I think an entity like the Maker can exist simply because people believe in it, and believe in it so strongly that belief will make it come about. It would not be a creator god so much as a supreme Fade spirit, but in a very meaningful way it would be the Maker.

I do not know how the Story writers view magic but to me it is not a law of nature. Magic is something that is supernatural by itself. It is a means to break laws..... I would rather suspect that Magic is treated as such by authors a well. But i grant you I am not sure. It can be another meta-physical effect besides Souls.

There is a possibility though ASSUMING the Maker hypothesis is indeed correct. magic was created by the Maker for the spirits  to alter the world as they see fit without actually having to make efforts. That MAY explain why only a few of the Living have it. They have some or other connection to the spirits through their bloodline.

Modifié par captain.subtle, 15 août 2010 - 12:04 .

[AlexXIV]

Well the Elves are the elder race and don't worship the Maker. Even though, according to the Chantry, this Maker forged the world in the Golden City. So he also made the Elves who must then have been his 'first children' at a time when the humans did not yet exist. Still the Elves never knew about the Maker before the humans came.

I am still not sure where this Maker religion comes from since obviously the Tevinters, the oldest known civilsation of men on Thedas, worshipped the Old Gods. I don't know any source of humans having served the Maker before the Old Gods, other than the Chantry that is. And the Chantry only exists since after the first Blight. So the youngest religion is being dominant, without any need to prove anything to anyone. They just spread their Chant and if anyone resists, an exalted march solves the problem.

Well I don't think there are all-powerful gods in this fantasy world. They are, if anything, ancient powerful beings. The priests of the Chantry don't even have any power like mages. No blessings, no healings other than herbalism. They only have the Grey Wardens to fight the Blights, who probably only exist thanks to mages who dabbled in blood magic to discover the ritual they call the Joining.

It seems they don't mind bloodmagic in the ranks of the Wardens, which I find curious since a religion usually doesn't make compromises of that sort. That'd be like if Jesus said it is ok to work with the devil if the whole world is at stake. So bloodmagic is evil but acceptable if the Chantry needs it.

I can imagine and believe alot of things, but I find the hypocracy of the Chantry rather obvious. Whether the world is created or always existed, whether the Black City has been once Golden, wether the Tevinter mages entered and tainted it, is all possible. But why anyone should believe that the Chantry does hold a monopoly for the truth is a mystery to me.

[filetemo]

another analogy, the old gods are satan, whispering at the ears of Eva to take the forbidden fruit, vanishing men from paradise.

[captain.subtle]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well the Elves are the elder race and don't worship the Maker. Even though, according to the Chantry, this Maker forged the world in the Golden City. So he also made the Elves who must then have been his 'first children' at a time when the humans did not yet exist. Still the Elves never knew about the Maker before the humans came.

I am still not sure where this Maker religion comes from since obviously the Tevinters, the oldest known civilsation of men on Thedas, worshipped the Old Gods. I don't know any source of humans having served the Maker before the Old Gods, other than the Chantry that is. And the Chantry only exists since after the first Blight. So the youngest religion is being dominant, without any need to prove anything to anyone. They just spread their Chant and if anyone resists, an exalted march solves the problem.

Well I don't think there are all-powerful gods in this fantasy world. They are, if anything, ancient powerful beings. The priests of the Chantry don't even have any power like mages. No blessings, no healings other than herbalism. They only have the Grey Wardens to fight the Blights, who probably only exist thanks to mages who dabbled in blood magic to discover the ritual they call the Joining.

It seems they don't mind bloodmagic in the ranks of the Wardens, which I find curious since a religion usually doesn't make compromises of that sort. That'd be like if Jesus said it is ok to work with the devil if the whole world is at stake. So bloodmagic is evil but acceptable if the Chantry needs it.

I can imagine and believe alot of things, but I find the hypocracy of the Chantry rather obvious. Whether the world is created or always existed, whether the Black City has been once Golden, wether the Tevinter mages entered and tainted it, is all possible. But why anyone should believe that the Chantry does hold a monopoly for the truth is a mystery to me.

David said that there was the cult of the creator (later identofied as the Maker) even before Tevinter Magisters.... There is a link I will post for you. Essential reading!
http://social.biowar...508455/3#509837

[Fishy]

These thread seem to be made more of a cover for debating over the existence of god.



Made by pre-teenager who just found the discovery channel.

[filetemo]

jln.francisco wrote...

filetemo wrote...

another analogy, the old gods are satan, whispering at the ears of Eva to take the forbidden fruit, vanishing men from paradise.

you can't see me, but I'm rolling my eyes at you.

rolling eyes is the last chance for a man without a valid comeback

[AntiChri5]

filetemo wrote...

jln.francisco wrote...

filetemo wrote...

another analogy, the old gods are satan, whispering at the ears of Eva to take the forbidden fruit, vanishing men from paradise.

you can't see me, but I'm rolling my eyes at you.

rolling eyes is the last chance for a man without a valid comeback

Or the last response to an irritating troll.

[filetemo]

AntiChri5 wrote...

filetemo wrote...

jln.francisco wrote...

filetemo wrote...

another analogy, the old gods are satan, whispering at the ears of Eva to take the forbidden fruit, vanishing men from paradise.

you can't see me, but I'm rolling my eyes at you.

rolling eyes is the last chance for a man without a valid comeback

Or the last response to an irritating troll.

in this case I'd say is the former.

[AlexXIV]

captain.subtle wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Well the Elves are the elder race and don't worship the Maker. Even though, according to the Chantry, this Maker forged the world in the Golden City. So he also made the Elves who must then have been his 'first children' at a time when the humans did not yet exist. Still the Elves never knew about the Maker before the humans came.

I am still not sure where this Maker religion comes from since obviously the Tevinters, the oldest known civilsation of men on Thedas, worshipped the Old Gods. I don't know any source of humans having served the Maker before the Old Gods, other than the Chantry that is. And the Chantry only exists since after the first Blight. So the youngest religion is being dominant, without any need to prove anything to anyone. They just spread their Chant and if anyone resists, an exalted march solves the problem.

Well I don't think there are all-powerful gods in this fantasy world. They are, if anything, ancient powerful beings. The priests of the Chantry don't even have any power like mages. No blessings, no healings other than herbalism. They only have the Grey Wardens to fight the Blights, who probably only exist thanks to mages who dabbled in blood magic to discover the ritual they call the Joining.

It seems they don't mind bloodmagic in the ranks of the Wardens, which I find curious since a religion usually doesn't make compromises of that sort. That'd be like if Jesus said it is ok to work with the devil if the whole world is at stake. So bloodmagic is evil but acceptable if the Chantry needs it.

I can imagine and believe alot of things, but I find the hypocracy of the Chantry rather obvious. Whether the world is created or always existed, whether the Black City has been once Golden, wether the Tevinter mages entered and tainted it, is all possible. But why anyone should believe that the Chantry does hold a monopoly for the truth is a mystery to me.

David said that there was the cult of the creator (later identofied as the Maker) even before Tevinter Magisters.... There is a link I will post for you. Essential reading!
http://social.biowar...508455/3#509837

Ah ok I see ... well DG speaks of a cult of a creator. There could have been plenty cults, and many of them featuring some creator of the world. That's rather common in religion. But I think the elven religion was still older and did not know a creator, as in creator of the whole world. The elven gods were born from the world. So still remains the question why the humans know the Maker and the elves don't. Not to mention it were the humans who suppressed elven religion and who are the reason why we know little about it. Also the Old Gods, supposed enemies of the Maker, told the humans to destroy Arlathan, which they did. And then these humans establish the new religion and call the elven one false. I find it all very conventient for the Chantry.

[captain.subtle]

AlexXIV wrote...

captain.subtle wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Well the Elves are the elder race and don't worship the Maker. Even though, according to the Chantry, this Maker forged the world in the Golden City. So he also made the Elves who must then have been his 'first children' at a time when the humans did not yet exist. Still the Elves never knew about the Maker before the humans came.

I am still not sure where this Maker religion comes from since obviously the Tevinters, the oldest known civilsation of men on Thedas, worshipped the Old Gods. I don't know any source of humans having served the Maker before the Old Gods, other than the Chantry that is. And the Chantry only exists since after the first Blight. So the youngest religion is being dominant, without any need to prove anything to anyone. They just spread their Chant and if anyone resists, an exalted march solves the problem.

Well I don't think there are all-powerful gods in this fantasy world. They are, if anything, ancient powerful beings. The priests of the Chantry don't even have any power like mages. No blessings, no healings other than herbalism. They only have the Grey Wardens to fight the Blights, who probably only exist thanks to mages who dabbled in blood magic to discover the ritual they call the Joining.

It seems they don't mind bloodmagic in the ranks of the Wardens, which I find curious since a religion usually doesn't make compromises of that sort. That'd be like if Jesus said it is ok to work with the devil if the whole world is at stake. So bloodmagic is evil but acceptable if the Chantry needs it.

I can imagine and believe alot of things, but I find the hypocracy of the Chantry rather obvious. Whether the world is created or always existed, whether the Black City has been once Golden, wether the Tevinter mages entered and tainted it, is all possible. But why anyone should believe that the Chantry does hold a monopoly for the truth is a mystery to me.

David said that there was the cult of the creator (later identofied as the Maker) even before Tevinter Magisters.... There is a link I will post for you. Essential reading!
http://social.biowar...508455/3#509837

Ah ok I see ... well DG speaks of a cult of a creator. There could have been plenty cults, and many of them featuring some creator of the world. That's rather common in religion. But I think the elven religion was still older and did not know a creator, as in creator of the whole world. The elven gods were born from the world. So still remains the question why the humans know the Maker and the elves don't. Not to mention it were the humans who suppressed elven religion and who are the reason why we know little about it. Also the Old Gods, supposed enemies of the Maker, told the humans to destroy Arlathan, which they did. And then these humans establish the new religion and call the elven one false. I find it all very conventient for the Chantry.

Unless atleast some of their lore is actually right... The finer parts such as imprisoning the Mages, Control over the templars etc could be false outright, implemented later.

[AmstradHero]

Taken from another thread already referenced here:

David Gaider wrote...
All of this is, of course, open to interpretation. That's part of the point of faith, if you ask me. Were some god to appear on earth and tell everyone How It Really Is that would destroy the very idea of faith -- though at that point one would have to ask: is such a being really a god? What is a god? What ideas are really worth worship? To me, that's the notion that's worth exploring. Beyond that, all conjecture is welcome.

All David's posts on the issue have been similar in tone. The writers don't want to "explain" religion, because that's not the point. Religion is based on faith, on things that you cannot confirm by any means but you believe to be true. Debating the existence or non-existence of the Maker is the point of religions in the game.

There is nothing to prove or disprove the existence of gods (be they the Maker, the Old Gods, or the Elven Gods) within the game, and based on the ethos espoused by the developers, there never will be. Some players will believe, and others won't.

I feel like I'm seeing evangelism for a religion in a fictional world. I commend people's enthusiasm for debate and their keen interest in the land of Thedas, but I don't believe there's a need for the debate to turn heated and devolve into insults. There's enough of that already on these forums.

Modifié par AmstradHero, 15 août 2010 - 01:00 .

[MDarwin]

AlexXIV wrote...

It seems they don't mind bloodmagic in the ranks of the Wardens, which I find curious since a religion usually doesn't make compromises of that sort. That'd be like if Jesus said it is ok to work with the devil if the whole world is at stake. So bloodmagic is evil but acceptable if the Chantry needs it.

I actualy played a Blood Mage with a mod enabling a conversation part with Wynn after you defeat Uldred and tell the Templar "The all clear". Wynn asked you about, that you used "strange Spells". Which reminded her of Blood Magic.

You basicly have to "lie" to put this to rest. If you admit "Jep, I am a Blood Mage and PROUD of it!" All Mages/Templars turn hostile. I do not know, why BW deleted this choice in the dialog.

I got my own "theory" of the nature of magic. I "believe" that some people/creatures have an affinity of "natural energy" and can somehow convert this in to "Magic". But yeah, it is hard to define from where magic can "originate". There are soooo many possibility's. <_<

[MDarwin]

AmstradHero wrote...

Taken from another thread already referenced here:

David Gaider wrote...
All of this is, of course, open to interpretation. That's part of the point of faith, if you ask me. Were some god to appear on earth and tell everyone How It Really Is that would destroy the very idea of faith -- though at that point one would have to ask: is such a being really a god? What is a god? What ideas are really worth worship? To me, that's the notion that's worth exploring. Beyond that, all conjecture is welcome.

All David's posts on the issue have been similar in tone. The writers don't want to "explain" religion, because that's not the point. Religion is based on faith, on things that you cannot confirm by any means but you believe to be true. Debating the existence or non-existence of the Maker is the point of religions in the game.

There is nothing to prove or disprove the existence of gods (be they the Maker, the Old Gods, or the Elven Gods) within the game, and based on the ethos espoused by the developers, there never will be. Some players will believe, and others won't.

*I feel like I'm seeing evangelism for a religion in a fictional world. I commend people's enthusiasm for debate and their keen interest in the land of Thedas, but I don't believe there's a need for the debate to turn heated and devolve into insults. There's enough of that already on these forums.*

* I agree. Real life or fictionel "Religion", should not be discussed ( in depth) here on these boards. As it can bring out the worse in one. Peace, please.   :innocent:

[In Exile]

AlanC9 wrote...
Except, of course, that it would not have actually done any Making. Would it know that?

Haha. I didn't even catch that. I was so busy thinking maker = god that I didn't catch that the creation side is a big deal with the Chantry idea.

That's too speculative even for a guy as long-winded and nerdy as me. It gets at what could a demon know when it comes into existence, and what does it know about the world beyond what it sees in the Fade.

I personally would write the Maker as a variant on the demiurge idea, essentially a non-god that thinks it is a god. So what you meet is very much convinced it is the Maker, but there would be enough evidence that it actually is not. Then the dillema becomes, let this being exist, as a false but overall positive force, or take action against it, for whatever reason.

Makes for a good game, at least IMO.