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The way magic works


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#126
captain.subtle

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In Exile wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Except, of course, that it would not have actually done any Making. Would it know that?


Haha. I didn't even catch that. I was so busy thinking maker = god that I didn't catch that the creation side is a big deal with the Chantry idea.

That's too speculative even for a guy as long-winded and nerdy as me. It gets at what could a demon know when it comes into existence, and what does it know about the world beyond what it sees in the Fade.

I personally would write the Maker as a variant on the demiurge idea, essentially a non-god that thinks it is a god. So what you meet is very much convinced it is the Maker, but there would be enough evidence that it actually is not. Then the dillema becomes, let this being exist, as a false but overall positive force, or take action against it, for whatever reason.

Makes for a good game, at least IMO.



That is a rare piece of knowledge, I have seen being invoked....... Thou shalt not worship other gods? huh?

#127
AntiChri5

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In Exile wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Except, of course, that it would not have actually done any Making. Would it know that?


Haha. I didn't even catch that. I was so busy thinking maker = god that I didn't catch that the creation side is a big deal with the Chantry idea.

That's too speculative even for a guy as long-winded and nerdy as me. It gets at what could a demon know when it comes into existence, and what does it know about the world beyond what it sees in the Fade.

I personally would write the Maker as a variant on the demiurge idea, essentially a non-god that thinks it is a god. So what you meet is very much convinced it is the Maker, but there would be enough evidence that it actually is not. Then the dillema becomes, let this being exist, as a false but overall positive force, or take action against it, for whatever reason.

Makes for a good game, at least IMO.



I am not so sure its a positive force.

#128
In Exile

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captain.subtle wrote...
I think he is not a spirit neither the effect of Lyrium. He is a human being made ageless somehow. I would argue it this way:


He has to be something more than human. For one, he seems to be not entirely physical. He doesn't just walk around the temple, he up and teleports himself around it. There are no known spells that can do this.

The rest of the "spirits" in the Temple are Ash wraiths disguised as Characters. They are essentially analogous to interactive holograms with restricted responses. Their function is double edged: Attack those who give the wrong resposne or open the door.


They transform into ash wraiths, but that doesn't really explain how they became ash wraits in the first place, or what an ash wraith is. Is it like other wraiths, spirits of the Fade that do not have a human host? Is it something else?

There are too many questions and too few answers.

The guardian on the other hand is perfectly real in the sense, that he fights like a Human and dies to leave a body behind.


He also pops in and out of existence in the temple, which makes me think he is not so real as we are. He is either human and breaking a so-called cardinal rule of magic, or not human, but rather something that can be corporeal and incorporeal at the same time.

More questions, stlll no answers.

I have NO means to explaining his telepathy. Sloth demons can do that, yes, so he may have been infused with a spirit like Wynne (making him Functionally ageless). But we have no evidence of spirits being telepatic (Justice). Just sloth demons. And they too are telepathic only when they have put you to sleep, not when you are conscious as far as we know.


Wynne is not ageless, though, and Wynne is certainly not capable of teleporting. We saw that through the Fade, the sloth demon can read your desires, and we know that a desire demon can hear them (or at the very least, somehow pass to contact you via what we saw with Connor) so the answer to precisely what demons can and cannot do is still too up in the air.

Absence of evidence is evidence of absence, which is particularly fitting for this situation.

So the Guardian is a special thing. He claims that he just swore an oath and became what he was. IFF he is telling the truth, I would suspect some kind of divine intervention. He does not seem like the lying sort though.


He might not be lying, but swearing his oath is not enough evidence for us to conclude a diety was involved. The problem with explanation in the absence of differentiating evidence is that we can come up with a near infinite number of them, each equally good at explaining everything we currently know.

It's a legitimate philsophical problem: you can look it up under the "underdetermination of theory by data".

I do not know how the Story writers view magic but to me it is not a law of nature. Magic is something that is supernatural by itself. It is a means to break laws..... I would rather suspect that Magic is treated as such by authors a well. But i grant you I am not sure. It can be another meta-physical effect besides Souls.


I'm a scientist, so it is very hard for me to look at a feature of the physical world that is empirically self-evident and degree it as somehow supernatural. For us, magic is most certainly supernatural - it could quite possibly run contrary to physical laws we already have good reasons to believe are true, and we have no evidence for it.

At the same time, if someone is conjuring up fire from their palm, freezing people they dislike and literally sucking the life out of others to heal themselves (or reviving corpses or meding wounds for that matter) this is something that we absolutely have to take as real.

I say souls are metaphysical because we see no phyical evidence for them, never have an experience with them, but have good reasons to believe they are real based on the death of the archdemon (particularly throug the US).

Magic is something more - magic is real.

There is a possibility though ASSUMING the Maker hypothesis is indeed correct. magic was created by the Maker for the spirits  to alter the world as they see fit without actually having to make efforts. That MAY explain why only a few of the Living have it. They have some or other connection to the spirits through their bloodline.


Or it could be simply that the Maker created a world that we can shape according to our will. The Fade was entirely shaped by will, so it was too unstable; the next world might be more stable, but not quite as stable as ours. As plausible an explanation as any we can come up with, hence the problem.

#129
In Exile

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AntiChri5 wrote...
I am not so sure its a positive force.


It would make for bad writing if one choice is obviously good and the other one is the sadistic one.

That being said, I think things are as we will them to be with regard to magic. The spirit of justice is just that: the embodiment of our ideas of justice.

The maker would be the embodiment of our idea of the maker. Which is not quite like god, who was way more capricious and demanding of personal attention. Plus, god never abandoned us unless we breached the terms & conditions of our contract.

#130
AntiChri5

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In Exile wrote.....

They transform into ash wraiths, but that doesn't really explain how they became ash wraits in the first place, or what an ash wraith is. Is it like other wraiths, spirits of the Fade that do not have a human host? Is it something else?

There are too many questions and too few answers.


http://dragonage.wik...try:_Ash_Wraith
Legend has it that when Andraste's Ashes were taken into hiding, some of her closest disciples gave themselves to the fire, that their restless souls might remain to guard her final resting place forever.

Whether they are the spirits of Andraste's disciples or merely Fade spirits, the temple that houses the Sacred Urn is filled with wraiths. Created from a burnt corpse, an ash wraith is a powerful and amorphous opponent able to lash and smother while being immune to most physical attacks. Even if successfully dispersed, it can reform at a later time. Magic is the only real way to fight such a creature, wind and ice attacks being the most useful.

They are capable of creating small whirlwinds that are devastating to anyone unfortunate enough to get close, and their touch leaves a person drained.


http://dragonage.wik...he_Holy_Brazier

The brazier that stands atop the stairs in the great hall of our temple has always been something of a mystery to us. This is the brazier that created the beings we call the ash wraiths. This is where Andraste's followers immolated themselves and became the eternal guardians of Her temple.

I have painstakingly pieced together information from old books and from the tales and half-truths passed down to us by our forefathers. I believe I now understand the ritual used to create the wraiths. The brazier was lit with a consecrated taper, its flame taken from the everlasting fire that long ago consumed Andraste Herself. The chosen disciple would fast and pray for weeks, taking into his body nothing but a sip of water a day. When the disciple was finally ready, he would place in his mouth a flawless black pearl, and step into the flames. In ancient Tevinter, black pearls were thought to be magical, able to stop the soul from passing through the Veil when held in the mouth at the moment of death.

Thus, Andraste's disciples consigned themselves to the eternal flame; they became dust and ashes, and rose again and again to protect the most Beloved of the Maker.

-- From the journal of Father Kolgrim.


In Exile wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...
I am not so sure its a positive force.


It would make for bad writing if one choice is obviously good and the other one is the sadistic one.

That being said, I think things are as we will them to be with regard to magic. The spirit of justice is just that: the embodiment of our ideas of justice. 

The maker would be the embodiment of our idea of the maker. Which is not quite like god, who was way more capricious and demanding of personal attention. Plus, god never abandoned us unless we breached the terms & conditions of our contract. 


Personally, i find the idea of an all powerful being who is the embodiment of what people think an all powerful being should be is horrific

Modifié par AntiChri5, 15 août 2010 - 01:46 .


#131
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I think the main post has read too much into mythology.. Zeus imprisoning the "rogue" gods and such. But it could be possible.

#132
MDarwin

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jln.francisco wrote...

You basicly have to "lie" to put this to rest. If you admit "Jep, I am a Blood Mage and PROUD of it!" All Mages/Templars turn hostile. I do not know, why BW deleted this choice in the dialog.


I think there's some kind of bug that prevents you from advancing with the story if both factions are destroyed.

*I never get over how ungrateful and truly lost in their own theology these people have to be to turn on the person who just rescued them all from certain death. At the very least they should let you walk away because you did just save them.*


*"Arrgh, Our Saviour is a BLOOD MAGE, HE/SHE has to DIE. CHARGE!!!" :devil: Yeah, ungrateful "Bastards". :P

#133
AlanC9

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AntiChri5 wrote...
Personally, i find the idea of an all powerful being who is the embodiment of what people think an all powerful being should be is horrific


There are worse possibilities, such as the deities from Ellison's The Deathbird or Pullman's His Dark Materials. Though I guess neither of those count as actually being all powerful.

#134
captain.subtle

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In Exile wrote...

captain.subtle wrote...
I think he is not a spirit neither the effect of Lyrium. He is a human being made ageless somehow. I would argue it this way:


He has to be something more than human. For one, he seems to be not entirely physical. He doesn't just walk around the temple, he up and teleports himself around it. There are no known spells that can do this. 
He also pops in and out of existence in the temple, which makes me
think he is not so real as we are. He is either human and breaking a
so-called cardinal rule of magic, or not human, but rather something
that can be corporeal and incorporeal at the same time.


Of Course he is something more than human. No denying it. Since you mention  the Cardinal laws of Magic invoking that One of them states that you can't teleport, David Gaider said that you can't break these without some serious mojo.

They transform into ash wraiths, but that doesn't really explain how they became ash wraits in the first place, or what an ash wraith is. Is it like other wraiths, spirits of the Fade that do not have a human host? Is it something else?


One of the Ash wraith is Hessarian. So they are not atleast the real people. There is some sort of disguise involved. If the description of the process of becoming an Ash wraith by Kolgrim is true, it might be that they were disciples' souls trapped into their ash-wraith bodies.

Wynne is not ageless, though, and Wynne is certainly not capable of teleporting. We saw that through the Fade, the sloth demon can read your desires, and we know that a desire demon can hear them (or at the very least, somehow pass to contact you via what we saw with Connor) so the answer to precisely what demons can and cannot do is still too up in the air.


Wynne IS Ageless. If the Spirit does not leave her and she decides to sit rest of her career out (without angering the spirit) she will not die nor age (at least to out knowledge). But that may be wrong as Justice/Kristoff's body whithered. But that was perhaps because he was dead for a long time before becoming a host. And of course Kristoff's own soul was long gone. Only his memories remained. In the case of Wynne (or Flemeth) the Soul of the original host are intact to our meagre knowledge.

I'm a scientist, so it is very hard for me to look at a feature of the physical world that is empirically self-evident and degree it as somehow supernatural. For us, magic is most certainly supernatural - it could quite possibly run contrary to physical laws we already have good reasons to believe are true, and we have no evidence for it.

At the same time, if someone is conjuring up fire from their palm, freezing people they dislike and literally sucking the life out of others to heal themselves (or reviving corpses or meding wounds for that matter) this is something that we absolutely have to take as real.

I say souls are metaphysical because we see no phyical evidence for them, never have an experience with them, but have good reasons to believe they are real based on the death of the archdemon (particularly throug the US).

Magic is something more - magic is real.


I doubt  if any experiments can actually be conducted with magic outside a Black Box scenario even in game universe. You can know only the input variables and the outcome without knowing what really goes in between. It certainly seems that most efforts towards learning about magic that everyone employes are Heuristic.

Or it could be simply that the Maker created a world that we can shape according to our will. The Fade was entirely shaped by will, so it was too unstable; the next world might be more stable, but not quite as stable as ours. As plausible an explanation as any we can come up with, hence the problem.


Hmm....

In the nature of a theory of the following description, " Maker created the world and Magic (or IS Magic) and following are the observations supporting it: "Urn of Sacred Ashes", "Existance of Spirits", "Afterlife", "Souls", "Magic" etc.. is not so bad. It is SHAKY granted. But the other theories to explain the same observation are all based on the idea that Magic can do everything else. I am doubtful of the other theories because they require too  many mages with the capacity to break the Cardinal rules of Magic, a feat that should be nigh-impossible. So What I am saying that the Maker theory does have some legs to stand on. Whether its true or not only further revealation of lore will tell.

Modifié par captain.subtle, 15 août 2010 - 09:51 .


#135
captain.subtle

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AlanC9 wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...
Personally, i find the idea of an all powerful being who is the embodiment of what people think an all powerful being should be is horrific


There are worse possibilities, such as the deities from Ellison's The Deathbird or Pullman's His Dark Materials. Though I guess neither of those count as actually being all powerful.



"Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn"?

#136
Daryn Mercio

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what, Captain?

#137
captain.subtle

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Daryn Mercio wrote...

what, Captain?


its a line in the book "The call of Cthulhu."

#138
Daryn Mercio

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Cthulu? That squid thing

#139
captain.subtle

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Daryn Mercio wrote...

Cthulu? That squid thing


Yup. The same. He is a kinda god, that sleeps in his city underwater. He will awake one day and destroy the world "when the stars are right..." WIkipedia has a free ebook on the original.

#140
thegreateski

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This thread has made me fail the SAN check.

#141
Ulicus

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Archereon wrote...

There aren't any confirmed gods or a confirmed afterlife in Dragon Age. It's kept ambiguous (though slanted towards the atheist viewpoint)

Yes and no. It's somewhat slanted to an atheist viewpoint if, by "theism" you mean to refer specifically to the "God of Theism"  -- which is semi-sorta how the Maker is viewed by the Chantry. But not so much if, by theism, you're referring to any and all sorts of "gods" (gods=/=God, obviously), period.

The game is more slanted towards the idea that the Old Gods, for example, had/have a genuine existence as the "Old Gods".

#142
captain.subtle

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@Ulicus:



For your reading pleasure, would you have a look at this thread?



http://social.biowar...40773/4#4447301

#143
AlexXIV

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Often in stories about spirits or ghosts you see the reference that they have a task to accomplish or failed or simply refuse to leave the 'mortal' world. Of course it is all fictional. But anyway, it seems to me that a soul of strong willpower ... or stubborness can refuse to go where souls usually go when the body dies. Wherever that is.

So they are 'doomed' to stay in this world until they are relieved or redeemed in some way. It happens with oaths for example. Just leaves the question why an oath would be that powerful. Reminds me of a Planescape: Torment quote that describes the city Sigil as a place where 'words are more powerful than weapons'. So maybe it is possible that there is some power in words, in a world of magic. A sort of magic that binds you to your oath if for example you make it in a certain ritual behaviour or maybe in the name of some powerful being (god). Or maybe just because you believe in it's power.

Something I wonder is that if a faithful person dies, he is supposed to go sit by the Maker's side. That means the soul should be on the way to the Maker after their deaths. But if the Maker is gone, where do they go? If they usually went to the Golden City which is now tainted it may be that those souls also get tainted in a way and become these wraiths or whatever else.

#144
AlexXIV

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captain.subtle wrote...

Daryn Mercio wrote...

Cthulu? That squid thing


Yup. The same. He is a kinda god, that sleeps in his city underwater. He will awake one day and destroy the world "when the stars are right..." WIkipedia has a free ebook on the original.


Why do gods always sleep so much?

#145
The Hardest Thing In The World

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AntiChri5 wrote...

filetemo wrote...

why do you choose to believe there's no maker even having a huge part of the lore dedicated to it?


Because there is no evidence.


Very true. Anyway the burden of proof always lies with the believer.

#146
captain.subtle

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AlexXIV wrote...

Often in stories about spirits or ghosts you see the reference that they have a task to accomplish or failed or simply refuse to leave the 'mortal' world. Of course it is all fictional. But anyway, it seems to me that a soul of strong willpower ... or stubborness can refuse to go where souls usually go when the body dies. Wherever that is.

So they are 'doomed' to stay in this world until they are relieved or redeemed in some way. It happens with oaths for example. Just leaves the question why an oath would be that powerful. Reminds me of a Planescape: Torment quote that describes the city Sigil as a place where 'words are more powerful than weapons'. So maybe it is possible that there is some power in words, in a world of magic. A sort of magic that binds you to your oath if for example you make it in a certain ritual behaviour or maybe in the name of some powerful being (god). Or maybe just because you believe in it's power.

Something I wonder is that if a faithful person dies, he is supposed to go sit by the Maker's side. That means the soul should be on the way to the Maker after their deaths. But if the Maker is gone, where do they go? If they usually went to the Golden City which is now tainted it may be that those souls also get tainted in a way and become these wraiths or whatever else.


i understand the motivation of the post. I have one thing to clarify... In DA Universe, if the comics are canon there is an afterlife.....

#147
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i understand the motivation of the post. I have one thing to clarify... In DA Universe, if the comics are canon there is an afterlife.....




And anything Orson Scott Card had a hand in writing can be dismissed as gibberish. **** Orson Scott Card.

#148
SoleSong

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Why are we discussion fiction as something real, into that sack I put all religions

#149
Seifz

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1. Nearly everything important in Thedas is left ambiguous to us, by design. So, this whole discussion about the Maker, intelligent design (I so hate that term), etc. is, well, silly.

2. There is no reason to think that Wynne is actually ageless. We have two other examples of a spirit living in a body long-term and in both cases, those bodies do not last. Flemmeth ages, which is why she needs to keep inhabiting new bodies. Her situation is probably the most similar to Wynne's, since she still retains her own memories and "spirit". Justice's body decays quite rapidly, too. Sure, he was dead, but the corpse that he inhabits doesn't stop decaying. We have no examples of an ageless spirit-inhabited body.

3. Spirits seem to be a real thing in this world. Justice inhabited a body with no spirit, though some memories remained. Wynne's spirit seems to be fully in control of her body. The mage that we meet in the Fade during the Circle mission dies because his body was left outside the Fade for too long without his spirit. Etc.

EDIT:  Oh, and **** Orson Scott Card.  I really, really hope that BioWare is smart enough not to take anything that jerk writes seriously.

Modifié par Seifz, 15 août 2010 - 05:31 .


#150
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Seifz wrote...
3. Spirits seem to be a real thing in this world. Justice inhabited a body with no spirit, though some memories remained. Wynne's spirit seems to be fully in control of her body. The mage that we meet in the Fade during the Circle mission dies because his body was left outside the Fade for too long without his spirit. Etc.


I don't think spending to much time in the Fdae away from your body is what kills you. Nial was being fed upon by abominations and demons when we come across him. Eamon spends several weeks away from his body while the desire demon keeps him trapped in the Fade yet he is perfectly fine when we defeat the demon (minus the whole poisoned thing.) I think what really gets you is how aggressive/hostile the spirits you encounter in the Fade while there are. Otherwise you'd see mages at least terribly worn out after going to sleep rather then feelings refreshed.