213 réponses à ce sujet

[tonnactus]

Kronner wrote...

If you do not like the fact that you have to remove the defense first for your biotics to work, why do you play Insanity? It is called Insanity for a reason, you know.

But even the class power didnt work on all enemies.Armored varren and fenris mechs just ignore singularity.(the power stops harbinger but fail at those annoying critters???/is their anyone what found that right)
Heavy mechs and geth primes are not affected by it anyway(other then a little shield damage).

Fact is,there arent weaknesses like this for infiltrators because there arent enemies in the game that have a anti cloak
device or that could damp adrenaline rush.

I wouldnt call this balanced...

Modifié par tonnactus, 17 août 2010 - 02:04 .

[tonnactus]

Kronner wrote...


How many Maws are in the game? Like 5? Killing Geth Colossus on foot is no problem without Stasis. I found Nemesis Lift to be far superior to Bastion Lift. Most of the fights in the game take place in small rooms/corridors/whatever, Lift is more useful there. I had many Adepts in ME1 and none was as much fun as Nemesis Adept for me.

Its still great.Or just to stasis a charging krogan in his tracks,then warp and carnage him at nearest possible distance(even meleeing the thing for fun a little time). Stasis was favorite power in Mass Effect.

[lazuli]

tonnactus wrote...

Fact is,there arent weaknesses like this for infiltrators because there arent enemies in the game that have a anti cloak device or that could damp adrenaline rush.

I wouldnt call this balanced...

You really are fond of this analogy.  You use it a lot.  And it's simply inaccurate.

Cloak is balanced because Infiltrators cannot heal or regenerate shields while they are cloaked.  Additionally, their power recharge doesn't start up again until they come out of cloak.  And the instant they come out of cloak every enemy in the area knows exactly where they are.  Yes, cloaking is powerful, but it comes with a heavy cost.

Adrenaline Rush is as strong as it is because Soldiers aren't supposed to be spamming other powers.  They're the class that should be constantly shooting.  Adrenaline Rush helps them live up to their legacy.

Honestly defenses are not a big deal.  Strip one enemy with your SMG, Pull, and Warp.  Bam.  Now all other nearby enemies probably have around 1/10 of their defenses left.  Two bullets, Pull, and Warp.  You used Warp in ME1 to counter Immunity and kill things faster.  It can be put to a similar purpose now.

And defenses do affect all classes, not just Adepts.  Combat classes can't pull off one hit kills as reliably against heavily defended foes.  Engineers have to rely on squadmates, SMG's, or Reave for Barriers.  Sentinels have a power for every defense.  Not using the tools they're given wouldn't make sense.

And if Varren or FENRIS Mechs are giving you trouble, try backing up.

[tonnactus]

lazuli wrote...

You really are fond of this analogy.  You use it a lot.  And it's simply inaccurate.

Cloak is balanced because Infiltrators cannot heal or regenerate shields while they are cloaked.  

Why that should be even necessary when someone do it right and not only use cloak to escape when wounded?
Fact is,for example:Fight against a heavy mech.As an adept,i wait that the thing stop to fire its machine gun and then shot at it a little and use warp when the shields are down. As an infiltrator,i use cloak and shoot a full clip on it nonstop and could escape when needed.

Fact is:There isnt an enemy that could see the infiltrator despise of cloak.Such weaknesses didnt exists.You could argue like you want,that isnt something anyone would call balance.

And no,i havent trouble with varren.But its just dumb and illogical that singularity stopped a scion but fail at those little critters.Good gameplay has to make sense and that doesnt make sense in any way.

[lazuli]

tonnactus wrote...

[
Why that should be even necessary when someone do it right and not only use cloak to escape when wounded?
Fact is,for example:Fight against a heavy mech.As an adept,i wait that the thing stop to fire its machine gun and then shot at it a little and use warp when the shields are down. As an infiltrator,i use cloak and shoot a full clip on it nonstop and could escape when needed.

Fact is:There isnt an enemy that could see the infiltrator despise of cloak.Such weaknesses didnt exists.You could argue like you want,that isnt something anyone would call balance.

Ok, except you can't fire a full clip while cloaked, because shooting a gun while cloaked will in fact remove your cloak.  But if you tried, you'd kill your cloak a few shots in (assuming SMG) and then have the recharge to deal with while you're exposed.  The reason cloak stops regeneration is because it would be overpowered if it didn't.  As it is, instead of just activating it and letting yourself heal whenever you're damaged, you now need to activate it and then get away from danger if you can (provided you're using it defensively).

And yes, there is an enemy that can see cloaked Infiltrators.  It isn't a commonly encountered foe, but that doesn't make your statement any less wrong.

And the way I deal with YMIRs is the same for every class: find a tall piece of cover and always keep it on the other side, spamming appropriate powers or squadmate powers when available.

[PsyrenY]

tonnactus wrote...

Fact is,there arent weaknesses like this for infiltrators because there arent enemies in the game that have a anti cloak device

Oculus.

[JaegerBane]

mcsupersport wrote...

Hmmm, lets see, strip one guy, or let a companion use a power to strip the defense of ONE guy, area pull, unstable warp clears the defenses of most if not all the rest. Then it is playtime. Also look around the battlefield and find all the explosive containers and crates, pull/warp them to strip the defenses of the guy you want to have fun with, then pull warp explode to get all the rest stripped.

Just because you don't use the powers to the full measure doesn't mean everyone doesn't. I punted a whole bunch off cliffs, dropped them over falls to die, exploded a good many, and generally had a blast. Only a few areas did I say , "OH, CRAP, I NEED A GUN!!"

Yeah, no offence mcsupersport but I'm beginning to wonder whether we're arguing about the same thing.

I'm a bit miffed that biotics don't work until defences are wiped out.

You're saying that once you stripped defences, everything's fine.

They aren't the same argument. And I'd appreciate it if you'd not make sweeping assumptions about how I play the Adept - I'm not really sure how you've managed to jump from 'I don't like the way biotics work with defences' to the idea that I'm not using the powers to full measure, but it's ultimately irrelevant.

If you want to talk about one power trick pony then look at the Soldier, Vanguard, Infiltrator, and the Sentinel, by and large all are just one basic idea, pop their class power and start shooting, and MAYBE throw in a odd bonus talent or other secondary power.

Actually what I said is that the Adept that focuses entirely on warp explosions is a bit repetitive, not that the Adept itself is a one trick pony. It certainly isn't such on Normal.

[JaegerBane]

Mr_Raider wrote...
Of the three classes, my favorite biotic user in ME1 haas always been the sentinel. In me2, I think Sentinels retained the most of their original flavor. Adepts got massively nerfed, and Vanguards are a comletely different class altogether, though quite fun. They suffer the same problem as adepts though, you have to peel away their defenses before charging.

While I've never been a fan of the Sentinel, I agree with the sentiment. Adepts went from being crowd control masters to two-stage artillery and Vanguards are nothing like what they once were.

I kinda do hope that Bioware put a bit more thought into Biotics in ME3 - the whole directional thing was an interesting concept, but it's rather telling that out of the strongest classes in the game, the only biotic ones happen to be ones that don't rely on biotics.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 17 août 2010 - 03:28 .

[tonnactus]

lazuli wrote...


Ok, except you can't fire a full clip while cloaked, because shooting a gun while cloaked will in fact remove your cloak. 

Nonsense. 3-4 pistol shots into the harbringer drone before cloak actually ends.(and enough to finish it anyway)

And yes, there is an enemy that can see cloaked Infiltrators. 

Yes,that thing is a big deal for sure...
But ok,one enemy have a anticloak radar.(that isnt really dangerous anyway)

Modifié par tonnactus, 17 août 2010 - 03:24 .

[lazuli]

tonnactus wrote...

lazuli wrote...


Ok, except you can't fire a full clip while cloaked, because shooting a gun while cloaked will in fact remove your cloak.  But if you tried, you'd kill your cloak a few shots in (assuming SMG)
and then have the recharge to deal with while you're exposed.  

Nonsense. 3-4 pistol shots into the harbringer drone before cloak actually ends.(and enough to finish it anyway)

Yeah, so a few shots in the cloak fades.  I don't think you can argue that shooting doesn't strip your cloak.  It's a built in game mechanic.  Shooting ends cloak.  If you're using a quick enough weapon, you can get a few shots in before it completely fades, just like I said and just like the video you provided proves.

But let's get this back to Adepts, because that's what this thread is supposed to be about.  Just like Cloak, Singularity comes with some factors to balance it.  First of all, it won't completely suspend defended foes.  It just holds defended foes still for a while.  Secondly, it can't hold an unlimited number of foes.  Thirdly, the more foes it holds the less time it lasts.  Singularity needs to be this way because it broke the game in Mass Effect 1.

I've said it before, but Adepts, as they were in ME1, were completely broken.  Powers with as strong of effects as Biotics need to have some balancing mechanisms built in, or the game becomes a joke.

[The Grey Ranger]

For ME1, you might want to try this:


Basic Armor - 5
Pistols - 12
Throw - 12
Lift - 12
Warp -12
Singularity - 12
Barrier - 7
Stasis - 12
Bastion - 12
Spectre Training - 6

or this

Assault Rifle 9
Barrier 12
Bastion 12
Basic Armor 3
Lift 12
Singularity 12
Spectre 6
Stasis 12
Throw 12
Warp 12

or this

Basic Armor - 5
Pistols - 12
Throw - 12
Lift - 12
Warp -12
Singularity - 12
Barrier - 12
Nemesis - 12
Spectre Training - 4
Decryption - 9

With this build you can take Liara and Wrex and still be able to deal with locks and crates.

Taking lift, throw, and singularity to master will have a very large effect on your ability to lock down enemies, especially on the higher difficulty levels where enemies start developing resistances to tech/biotic powers.  High spectre is not really needed.  The bonus isn't really worth the extra 8 points to take it clear to Master, and the extra in armor past the points to unlock pistol, are better spent on your biotics.

Modifié par The Grey Ranger, 17 août 2010 - 03:53 .

[tonnactus]

lazuli wrote...

Yeah, so a few shots in the cloak fades.  I don't think you can argue that shooting doesn't strip your cloak.

Not immediatly after the first shot cloaked.The player who made the vid shoot for 4 seconds at least.(not far away
from the duration of assasination cloak of 6 seconds.

I've said it before, but Adepts, as they were in ME1, were completely broken.  Powers with as strong of effects as Biotics need to have some balancing mechanisms built in, or the game becomes a joke.

But not a 100 percent immunity to most biotics.
Reduced duration,newton strength,barrier breakdown,cooldown increases,such things.
What was done isnt balancing,this is nerfing.And then such nonsense that a harbinger drone /a scion is helpless in singularity but critter like fenris mechs and varren just ignored the power.

[Aonix]

Tonnactus, honestly we understand that biotics were weakened to make up for the fact that they made the first game way too simple, but can you refer to something other than "Fenris Mechs and Varren ignore my singularity"?

[lazuli]

tonnactus wrote...

Not immediatly after the first shot cloaked.The player who made the vid shoot for 4 seconds at least.(not far away
from the duration of assasination cloak of 6 seconds

Yep.  I completely agree.  Shooting starts to lower your cloak.  Try it with a sniper rifle and then try it with a sidearm.  No matter what, shooting is going to lower the amount of time you have left on your cloak.  Faster firing weapons allow you to get a few more shots in before the cloak completely fades.

tonnactus wrote...
But not a 100 percent immunity to most biotics...  What was done isnt balancing,this is nerfing.

That statement is inaccurate unless you add the word "temporary" to it. 

And, at the risk of spouting cliché, I have to tell you that you're arguing semantics.  Nerfing is when something is weakened, is it not?  How do you propose balancing something as blatantly overpowered as ME1 Biotics without weakening them in some way?  At least to counteract the weaknesses imposed upon Biotics in ME2 you get much shorter cooldowns, even without relying on excessively tweaking your build or equipment.

[The Spamming Troll]

lazuli wrote...

But let's get this back to Adepts, because that's what this thread is supposed to be about.  Just like Cloak, Singularity comes with some factors to balance it.  First of all, it won't completely suspend defended foes.  It just holds defended foes still for a while.  Secondly, it can't hold an unlimited number of foes.  Thirdly, the more foes it holds the less time it lasts.  Singularity needs to be this way because it broke the game in Mass Effect 1.

I've said it before, but Adepts, as they were in ME1, were completely broken.  Powers with as strong of effects as Biotics need to have some balancing mechanisms built in, or the game becomes a joke.

this is something i i dont agree with. why do you want abilities that arent awesome?  id like abilities to be memorable. id like abilities to destroy entire rooms. which is why i ****ing love ME1 singularity. i never once thought to myself in the 30+ playthroughs of ME1 that my abilities were overpowered. i just thought why isnt throw or lift as awesome as singularty?

the problem with insnaity is that those abilities an adept have become useless. i dont know how you can agrue against that becasue thats exactly what insanity is. the whole rock paper scissors game bioware added to defenses is really bad in my opinion.  it would be ok if it didnt effect my use of abilities. thats the whole god damed reason im playing mass effect TO USE MY ABILITIES!

its sortof useless complaining, but hopefully bioware shows off more then just the combat in ME3.

personally i dont think ME3 should have pre defined classes or maybe we shouldnt have classes at all. i WANT to be overpowered. i want to be a WRECKING BALL FROM HELL. i dont care if my adept can destroy jesus christ himself. it wont take away from my love of ME. but adding layers of defense thats only purpose is to "make me shoot more" is a bad and stupid and pathietic way of so called balancing biotics.

biotics should be awesome! in ME2 they arent. thats my biggest problem.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 17 août 2010 - 04:23 .

[tonnactus]

lazuli wrote...
 Nerfing is when something is weakened, is it not?  

Strong weakened.A throw with a force of 1000 newtons just do nothing more then stumble an enemy for half a second and reduce the shields by 1 percent???

How do you propose balancing something as blatantly overpowered as ME1 Biotics without weakening them in some way?

I gave the answers for that already. Reduced duration,higher cooldown times as an penalty when biotics are used on "protected enemies".
But whats the point in playing the adept when i cant lift a geth prime until the robot is nearly dead anyway? Crowd control is needed exactly then when enemies are the most dangerous,not when their "defenses" are stripped.Then they are just some lame finishing mooves.
 

At least to counteract the weaknesses imposed upon Biotics in ME2 you get much shorter cooldowns, even without relying on excessively tweaking your build or equipment.

With the global cooldown system,singularity is the most used ability anyway because its the only one that really crowd control enemies with defenses on.

[Talexe]

This is almost exactly what I'm planning to do with my Adept. About weapons, for ME2 I would recommend:

Pistol: M-5 Phalanx
SMG: M-12 Locust
Specialisation: Geth Plasma Shotgun
Heavy: Arc Projector / M920-Cain

Good luck, and keep me updated with your progress! :happy:

Modifié par Talexe, 17 août 2010 - 04:43 .

[sinosleep]

Good grief, so many months past release, and we still have damned near every adept thread devolving into a stupid argument about whether or not biotics were overpowered in ME 1 or are underpowered in ME 2?

[lazuli]

The Spamming Troll wrote...


this is something i i dont agree with. why do you want abilities that arent awesome?  id like abilities to be memorable. id like abilities to destroy entire rooms. which is why i ****ing love ME1 singularity. i never once thought to myself in the 30+ playthroughs of ME1 that my abilities were overpowered. i just thought why isnt throw or lift as awesome as singularty?

biotics should be awesome! in ME2 they arent. thats my biggest problem.

I don't know that our viewpoints can be reconciled.  I prefer a reasonable level of difficulty.  I like to be challenged.  In ME1, I'd throw out a Singularity and then start skeet shooting, occasionally mopping things up with Warp or the other crowd control options.

[tonnactus]

lazuli wrote...

I don't know that our viewpoints can be reconciled.  I prefer a reasonable level of difficulty.  I like to be challenged.  In ME1, I'd throw out a Singularity and then start skeet shooting, occasionally mopping things up with Warp or the other crowd control options.

And what changed now? Well,now i really use singularity most of the time,then,after the defenses are down,follow with
a warp for the detonation.Thats it.Throw or shockwave was only used occasionally on collector platforms.Thats it.

Singularity was of course one of the weaker biotics in Mass Effect that didnt work on armatures and colossi.There,only master lift and stasis was effective.

[lazuli]

tonnactus wrote...

How do you propose balancing something as blatantly overpowered as ME1 Biotics without weakening them in some way?

I gave the answers for that already. Reduced duration,higher cooldown times as an penalty when biotics are used on "protected enemies".

That's still weakening them.  That's still a nerf compared to ME1.  You're still arguing semantics.

tonnactus wrote...
But whats the point in playing the adept when i cant lift a geth prime
until the robot is nearly dead anyway?

You don't see a problem with this?

[tonnactus]

That's still weakening them.  That's still a nerf compared to ME1.  You're still arguing semantics.

Subbosses and bosses had already a high physics resistence in MAss Effect.A krogan warlord stays a shorter duration
lifted then ordinary krogan warriors.

lazuli wrote...

You don't see a problem with this?

No.Skarr could lift armored tanks so thats perfectly fine with the lore.A geth prime isnt a spaceship.

Modifié par tonnactus, 17 août 2010 - 05:32 .

[lazuli]

tonnactus wrote...

No.Skarr could lift armored tanks so thats perfectly fine with the lore.A geth prime isnt a spaceship.

But it is supposed to be a challenge.

[tonnactus]

lazuli wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

No.Skarr could lift armored tanks so thats perfectly fine with the lore.A geth prime isnt a spaceship.

But it is supposed to be a challenge.

Defense stripping isnt a challenge,its just tediuos,boring and as tactical as paper,scissors and rock.Geth primes already had damping in the first game.More tech enemies ,more varied
enemy groups,that would be far better then the stupid immunity to biotics as long as the enemy has shields and armor up.

So a tactic for the biotics would be to take out tech enemies first that could stop them.

[Kronner]

On the other hand, if you could Lift anyone just like that, why would you even play? Enemies would essentially be your dummy figures you can throw around as you please. Overall ME1 combat was a freaking joke. ME2 is much better but it could use some tweaking (special tech and biotic attacks enemies can use against you for instance). Other than that I am glad I can't throw around Geth Prime on Insanity without stripping its defenses first. If I wanted to do that I would play on Normal or something.

Modifié par Kronner, 17 août 2010 - 07:03 .