213 réponses à ce sujet

[sinosleep]

JaegerBane wrote...
Well, to paraphrase you Sinosleep, Deal With It. There's obviously some strong opinions on here and there have been for a while, but shouting and screaming is no more called for or worthwhile now than it was back then.

I'm fully aware that the game is balanced around Normal, of course. You don't need to post anything regarding that. What I would appreciate is a post where the developers state their intention that the way the class plays on Insanity etc was supposed to be any different to how it's supposed to play on Normal.

I mean, given that no other class is treated in this fashion, and that the Adept has one particular skill which serves no real purpose on higher difficulties whatsoever, the burden of proof is kind of on you. Without that proof the entirety of your argument depends on your own assumption of how the difficulties were supposed to work - interesting and all, but largely meaningless in this discussion.

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here, Sinosleep. My own opinion on the matter is it little more than the simple concept that the difficulty levels simply weren't thought through properly and poorly implemented - but I'm quite willing to be shown otherwise.

One, I DO need to post something about what the game is balanced around when people CONTINUALLY post that goddamned quote about not having to fire a bullet when arguing about insanity when the fact of the matter is that it doesn't apply and never has. It was explained away AGES ago and yet people still cling to it as if their lives depended on it.

By stating that the "you don't need to fire a shot" statement was made with normal difficulty in mind, they ARE saying that the class plays slightly differently on insanity. Emphasis on the SLIGHTLY as you've been given example after example of just how little shooting you have to do as an adept on insanity.I don't think the adept is on an island in regards to insanity. Every class in the game has to deal with defenses, and I don't feel that occasionally firing a gun is a significant change to adept gameplay. This feeling has been echoed in this thread by people not named sinosleep, clearly I'm not the only one that feels this way.

Modifié par sinosleep, 18 août 2010 - 09:33 .

[JaegerBane]

lazuli wrote...
It's already been pointed out that you can still kill things without guns on Insanity.  Like any other class, you're going to rely on squadmates and bonus powers (all the options available to you) a bit more on higher difficulties than on lower difficulties.

In my experience, all classes are affected by defenses.

The point here is that the gameplay completely changes, though. I don't recall Soldier's ammo powers suddenly not working and AR lasting less duration. I don't recall the Infiltrator's Incinerate attacks being any less potent or cloak simply not functioning as well. Drones still working as they should, Tech armour still going off, etc etc etc - the other classes still function as they do on other difficulties - just with less margin for error, as to be expected.

Half of the Adept's arsenal becomes virtually useless - one skill in particular is of flatly no use whatsoever. You can't justifiably claim that all classes were affected equally, which is, IIRC, the entire point of the discussion.

I'm not trying to use the developers or that video to prove anything.  The video was originally brought up to illustrate that Adepts are supposed to kill things without guns, which isn't the point I've been trying to make.

Well if you weren't trying to prove anything.... why were you instucting me to discount the stuff being mentioned? Are expecting me to ignore it simply because you ask?

[sinosleep]

JaegerBane wrote...

The point here is that the gameplay completely changes, though. I don't recall Soldier's ammo powers suddenly not working and AR lasting less duration. I don't recall the Infiltrator's Incinerate attacks being any less potent or cloak simply not functioning as well. Drones still working as they should, Tech armour still going off, etc etc etc - the other classes still function as they do on other difficulties - just with less margin for error, as to be expected.

Half of the Adept's arsenal becomes virtually useless - one skill in particular is of flatly no use whatsoever. You can't justifiably claim that all classes were affected equally, which is, IIRC, the entire point of the discussion.

Clearly I disagree that it completely changes. Defense stripping doesn't completely change the way adepts play IMO. They are still a power based class that kills primarily through their powers. The same way a soldier is a gun based glass that kills primarily through guns.

Case in point

group of 4 enemies
throw a singularity
squad gets rid of at least ONE enemy's defense
that one enemy is now in the singularity
that one enemy is now a warp explosion
that one enemy is now dead and the other 3 have no defenses
you are free to throw and pull to your heart's content

and all without a disproprotionate amount of shooting.

I'm not the only one to have suggested it's quite easy to get back to the point where biotics crush everything, and your best bet to get there is actually using biotics.

So, again, I disagree. Adepts aren't on an island.

[tonnactus]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Dunno what guns you're using but I do know that the damage bonus you'll get with Disruptor Ammo isn't calculated the way you're suggesting - its much less; more like 10-20 %.

Squad disruptor is 40 percent of the base weapon damage.

You can't use Zaeed to setup combos making him one of the worst squadies for the Adept class.

What combos?Warp bombs? Im so sick of it.

[lazuli]

tonnactus wrote...

What combos?Warp bombs? Im so sick of it.

Plenty of powers work best on floating foes.  Try Pull + Heavy Slam to shake things up.  It's hilarious.

[lazuli]

JaegerBane wrote...
Well if you weren't trying to prove anything.... why were you instucting me to discount the stuff being mentioned? Are expecting me to ignore it simply because you ask?

I wasn't attempting to make a point with that dated video.

[sinosleep]

tonnactus wrote...
What combos?Warp bombs? Im so sick of it.

This is another thing that seems to get credited to adepts more than anyone else, but from everything I've seen EVERY class in the game is essentially a spam bot. Vanguards charge and shotgun, engineers drone and shot, soldiers adrenaline rush and shoot, sentinals are equal opportunity warp/tech armor spammers, infiltrators cloak and boom head shot.

Although if you are sick of performing warp bombs your self you can always just have your squad do it while you have fun with other powers



he has his squad do all the warp bombs, had he been an adept and on another level he coud have been throwing/pulling/shockwaving the stragglers instead of watching them fly off the platforms and shotgunning them.

Modifié par sinosleep, 18 août 2010 - 09:57 .

[tonnactus]

JaegerBane wrote...

I'm fully aware that the game is balanced around Normal, of course.

But not even on normal or casual its possible to lift a ymir mech/geth prime until  the "defenses" are down. So whats the point.
Warp those thing to death?

There was absolutly nothing wrong that it was possible to lift geth armatures in the first game.

Its also completly idiotic that when i played as a vanguard,i could stop a geth prime to shoot at me just with a little
melee, but throw or lift did absolutly nothing. Its just dumb.

[termokanden]

I disagree very strongly with that. It was very wrong that you could Lift armatures or even a colossus in ME1. You could keep them locked down indefinitely. Where's the challenge in that? These are supposed to be hard to kill. You're not even meant to kill a colossus on foot!



You could even lock down Saren that way. Yes, the final boss could be locked down 100% of the time using Lift. You seriously think that's balanced?

[sinosleep]

tonnactus wrote...

But not even on normal or casual its possible to lift a ymir mech/geth prime until  the "defenses" are down. So whats the point.
Warp those thing to death?

There was absolutly nothing wrong that it was possible to lift geth armatures in the first game.

Its also completly idiotic that when i played as a vanguard,i could stop a geth prime to shoot at me just with a little
melee, but throw or lift did absolutly nothing. Its just dumb.

Those are elite enemies, being able to pull/throw them would completely trivialize them.

[Bozorgmehr]

sinosleep wrote...

Although if you are sick of performing warp bombs your self you can always just have your squad do it while you have fun with other powers



he has his squad do all the warp bombs, had he been an adept and on another level he coud have been throwing/pulling/shockwaving the stragglers instead of watching them fly off the platforms and shotgunning them.

Give the Adept a decent shotty and they can fight at the vanguard too: Claymore Adept - Collector Ship plus they can use biotics (instead of spamming Charge - no medkits needed)

[tonnactus]

sinosleep wrote...


This is another thing that seems to get credited to adepts more than anyone else,

Thats right.But if someone decided to play an adept or an engineer,or even an sentinel,he expect something different
than just this. I was even more dissapointed by the sentinel then the adept.
But all classes lack variety in gameplay,thats right.

he has his squad do all the warp bombs, had he been an adept and on another level he coud have been throwing/pulling/shockwaving the stragglers instead of watching them fly off the platforms and shotgunning them.

Its nothing new that the collector platforms are the best places for the adept,where something more then just singularity and warp is usefull.

Out of like 20 missions in the game. The only other place are the dantius towers at the top.But there it ends.

Modifié par tonnactus, 18 août 2010 - 10:06 .

[JaegerBane]

sinosleep wrote...
One, I DO need to post something about what the game is balanced around when people CONTINUALLY post that goddamned quote about not having to fire a bullet when arguing about insanity when the fact of the matter is that it doesn't apply and never has. It was explained away AGES ago and yet people still cling to it as if their lives depended on it.

And here we go again, this mysterious 'fact' that since it was balanced around normal, it, of course, couldn't be balanced around Insanity in the same way.

I'm sorry sinosleep, but you seem to be of the opinion that your judgement on the matter is sufficient to close the case and establish it as fact. To put it bluntly, it isn't. You have no more authority on this than any other punter on here, and hence, *that* is why I'm trying to ascertain whether you're quoting from dev feedback, or simply deciding it and expecting everyone to agree.

By stating that the "you don't need to fire a shot" statement was made with normal difficulty in mind, they ARE saying that the class plays slightly differently on insanity. Emphasis on the SLIGHTLY as you've been given example after example of just how little shooting you have to do as an adept on insanity.

Well, here is the core of all the confusion. You've read deeply into what the devs are saying and have constructed your own view as to how this is supposed to work.

The devs are not saying that 'the class plays slightly differently etc etc'. They are saying what is stated in the trailer. You can read into it however much you want, but the fact of that matter is extrapolating anything from their statements beyond what they've actually said is taking it into the realms of your own opinion, which is fair enough, but not really good enough to stand on your pulpit and denounce everyone who disagrees as wrong.

I don't think the adept is on an island in regards to insanity.

Well of course, in that case, we disagree, but that isn't really what I'm getting at. My issue is that the devs stated the class works in a given way, and it doesn't do so on insanity or hardcore - ergo, there's an issue there. Whether that's intentional, as you claim, or it's just poor balance, as I suspect, is what I'm trying to figure out, but unfortunately whatever you, lazuli's or Grumpy's opinions are, the devs are the only ones that can really add anything authoritive to this and that is why I'm trying to find out what they're thinking on it is.

And no, that doesn't include making assumptions by what they mean between the lines or whatever.

Every class in the game has to deal with defenses, and I don't feel that occasionally firing a gun is a significant change to adept gameplay. This feeling has been echoed in this thread by people not named sinosleep, clearly I'm not the only one that feels this way.

Yeah, we know, I don't think anyone is actually claiming that the Adept is the only one that has to handle defences. The issue is that that the proportion of their abilities is largely weighted towards effects that only take place when defences are down - which simply isn't true of the other classes (with the closest being the engineer, who's only skill that's even affected is hacking)

[lazuli]

I, too, disagree with you, Tonnactus.  Here, I'll anticipate your responses and provide the following prebuttal:

ME1 is not ME2.  The same rules do not need to apply.  Adepts are no longer crowd control + warp debuff, they are now nukers as well.

[sinosleep]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Give the Adept a decent shotty and they can fight at the vanguard too: Claymore Adept - Collector Ship plus they can use biotics (instead of spamming Charge - no medkits needed)

Trust me I'm not trying to turn this thread to a class war, I'm just showing him what he can do if a.) he's sick of warp bombs and b.) he wants to make more use out of his other powers. By having the squad do the bombing he can concentrate on the weakened enemies with his other biotics.



Warp spam, not a bullet fired, cleared in just over 3 minutes (read, hella fast), lol. Just as applicable with overload/incinerate leading to warp bomb combinations.

Modifié par sinosleep, 18 août 2010 - 10:10 .

[Bozorgmehr]

tonnactus wrote...

Its nothing new that the collector platforms are the best places for the adept,where something more then just singularity and warp is usefull.

Out of like 20 missions in the game. The only other place are the dantius towers at the top.But there it ends.

Name one mission the Adept is lacking - best biotic misson is Samara's btw; love the Asari drug. Ever watched what that stuff does to biotics? Level 1 Throw can kill 2 fully protected enemies instantly, Singularity can kill up to 4 (including enemy vanguards)

[tonnactus]

sinosleep wrote...


Those are elite enemies, being able to pull/throw them would completely trivialize them.

Not when it done right. Like cooldown penalties,reduced duration(80-90 percent less) of the biotics.Complete immunity
until the defenses are down is the most dumb and easy way out to "balance" biotics.
I expect something more creative then to make the adept to a gimped soldier in those cases.
Melleing a geth prime for sure completly trivialze them.
They not even shoot,just stumble around until dead.

Modifié par tonnactus, 18 août 2010 - 10:20 .

[termokanden]

JaegerBane wrote...

Yeah, we know, I don't think anyone is actually claiming that the Adept is the only one that has to handle defences. The issue is that that the proportion of their abilities is largely weighted towards effects that only take place when defences are down - which simply isn't true of the other classes (with the closest being the engineer, who's only skill that's even affected is hacking)

And Cryo Blast.

It takes a lot more effort to use biotics effectively in this game, but it can be done. Whether you want to believe this is up to you. Overall I prefer this over the godmode of adepts in ME1.

Personally I think Singularity working through defenses is what keeps adepts from being bad in ME2. It's just worth an awful lot.

Like I've said earlier, I think the universal cooldown is what limits me from having as much fun with biotics as I did in ME1. After playing on Insanity, I got the hang of dealing with defenses. That part really isn't all that bad. But I am constantly waiting for the universal cooldown. Much more fun to just blast people with weapons then.

Modifié par termokanden, 18 août 2010 - 10:13 .

[sinosleep]

JaegerBane, I'm not going to quote you cause my reply is a simple one and there isn't a need to. If there was no difference between the way an adept plays on insanity and the way an adept plays on normal, WHY then would Christina bother to reply that she made that comment based on the fact that the game was balanced on normal?

If the comment applied regardless why would she feel the need to clear that up? She's the one who said it. She is the lead designer. And she is the one that cleared it up by saying she said that the comment was made based on the fact that the game is balanced around normal difficulty.

You don't have to read into it, it's all right there.

Modifié par sinosleep, 18 août 2010 - 10:16 .

[tonnactus]

Bozorgmehr wrote...


Name one mission the Adept is lacking

Fine.The full archangel mission.With lacking i mean variety.Not only warp bombs,but also throw,lift and shockwave.
Or talis loyality mission.

- best biotic misson is Samara's btw; love the Asari drug. Ever watched what that stuff does to biotics? Level 1 Throw can kill 2 fully protected enemies instantly, Singularity can kill up to 4 (including enemy vanguards)

What? At which poison level? I never see singularity alone kill enemies,just take down defenses.

[sinosleep]

tonnactus wrote...

Fine.The full archangel mission.With lacking i mean variety.Not only warp bombs,but also throw,lift and shockwave.
Or talis loyality mission.

Did you watch the first vid I posted? Have your squad do the warp bombs, mop up the rest with throw/lift/shockwave.

[tonnactus]

sinosleep wrote...

Did you watch the first vid I posted? Have your squad do the warp bombs, mop up the rest with throw/lift/shockwave.

Yes.I saw nothing new. Throwing/Shockwaving enemies from platforms make only sense where those platforms exists.

[sinosleep]

tonnactus wrote...
Yes.I saw nothing new. Throwing/Shockwaving enemies from platforms make only sense where those platforms exists.

I don't think you understand. Them not dying HELPS my point. Warp explosions usually only kill outright enemies who are already defensless. Those enemies that still have their defenses up and are hit by a warp explosion usually still have life left over. If those enemies AREN'T on a platform they will be alive. If your squad are the ones doing the explosions you will have your cool down available. As such you can use THROW for variety to finish them off. Throw WILL kill an enemy with no defenses on it's own. That's what you were just complaining about wasn't it? Not wanting to just warp bomb and not being able to use your other powers? So DON'T. Have your squad warp bomb, while you throw and shockwave. You missed my point entirely.

Modifié par sinosleep, 18 août 2010 - 10:32 .

[Bozorgmehr]

sinosleep wrote...

Trust me I'm not trying to turn this thread to a class war.

Neither am I. In fact I agree with most things you've said. I'm just love the ME2 Adept and try to convert those heritics; who, for some reason, still don't know (or want to know) that Adepts (and other caster classes) are still formidable on Insanity.

Warp spam, not a bullet fired, cleared in just over 3 minutes (read, hella fast), lol. Just as applicable with overload/incinerate leading to warp bomb combinations.

Didn't know about this vid though I did watched Gatsby's biotics-only Suicide run (his and Thisisme's Adept vids drawn me back into biotics - never looked back ). I play that mission without squadies. One Adept can easily wipe out those Collectors (only class able to use warpbombs by themselves)

[Bozorgmehr]

tonnactus wrote...

What? At which poison level? I never see singularity alone kill enemies,just take down defenses.

Have a look then: Asari Shepard and the Ardat-Yakshi; too bad this stuff cannot be used like medkits though it would spoil much of the fun playing Adept.