I just finished the Landsmeet as a human noble, so I'm going off what I've seen so far, but almost everything I've observe suggests that the Chantry is correct when it comes to the origins of the darkspawn.
I haven't seen one explanation from the dwarven, elven, or qunari belief systems that contradicts the Chantry or even attempts to offer a different rationale as to what darkspawn are.
Is the Chantry right?
Débuté par
Maria Caliban
, nov. 10 2009 11:34
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#2
Posté 10 novembre 2009 - 11:37
KnightofPhoenix
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Some of the chantry sees it as a metaphore and do not take it literally. It's supposed to represent the hubris of men.
Flemeth and Morrigan seem to have a different story though, but they do not fully share it. According to Morrigan, the Archdemons were Old Gods that were corrupted by something, and that they should be purified, hence her plan. That is assuming what she said was right.
Flemeth and Morrigan seem to have a different story though, but they do not fully share it. According to Morrigan, the Archdemons were Old Gods that were corrupted by something, and that they should be purified, hence her plan. That is assuming what she said was right.
#3
Posté 10 novembre 2009 - 11:37
GhoXen
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I personally think Chantry's beliefs are right, but the Chantry itself is being exploited.
#4
Posté 10 novembre 2009 - 11:37
challenger18
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I forgot who it was, maybe Leliana or some other NPC, but you can pretty much ask the same thing. They're response was it's as good an explanation as any.
#5
Posté 10 novembre 2009 - 11:38
MrKrisSatan
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it doesn't matter if they are right or wrong, those who truly believe will never be swayed from Andraste.
#6
Posté 11 novembre 2009 - 12:08
Spaghetti_Ninja
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It never becomes clear if they are right or wrong, that's the whole point of putting religion in this game. There is no answer to it. It could be Tevinter's fault, or it could just be some story that was convenient to brand mages as evil and dangerous and used to keep them on a leash.
Just because the other cultures/religions don't offer a contradicting theory doesn't mean that the Chantry is right by default. People in the real world would love your kind of reasoning...
Just because the other cultures/religions don't offer a contradicting theory doesn't mean that the Chantry is right by default. People in the real world would love your kind of reasoning...
#7
Posté 11 novembre 2009 - 12:16
Haasth
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I am not too keen on the Chantry. I am a person of rationalism, and not belief or faith - and I RP my characters as so too, mostly. I personally find it the most reasonable that the Archdemons were old gods, or beings of great power, who were corrupted and that the darkspawn now search for them underground and when they do, the Archdemon tries to gain world domination back through a blight.
This would mean there are more blights to come. As I believe a codex entry mentions there were 7 old gods, and 5 or so have been supposedly defeaten (Well, 4, including whom you are fighting now).
I have not completed the game yet however, and I can't say I can form my opinion on this until I have witnessed the archdemon in action yet. But as for the Chantry... well... lets just say I found the Andastre part very interesting in the Url of Sacred Ashes. It actually showed some proof.
This would mean there are more blights to come. As I believe a codex entry mentions there were 7 old gods, and 5 or so have been supposedly defeaten (Well, 4, including whom you are fighting now).
I have not completed the game yet however, and I can't say I can form my opinion on this until I have witnessed the archdemon in action yet. But as for the Chantry... well... lets just say I found the Andastre part very interesting in the Url of Sacred Ashes. It actually showed some proof.
#8
Posté 11 novembre 2009 - 12:18
Vilegrim
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right about the blight? Maybe, right to be the tyrants that they and more importantly the templars are? No.
#9
Posté 11 novembre 2009 - 12:22
Haasth
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Regarding the whole "Chantry are tyrants and regards Mages as second-class citizens" I think this is what lead me to hate them the most. They are scared and try to control Mages harshly. Some events have indeed proven that a certain control is necessary. But I think the Circle of Magi is more than capable of solving this themselves. That is also why I found that one codex entry - I should really read it again - about a certain person who studied blood magic to counter it very interesting.
I think there should actually be a certain amount of appointed people who study these kind of things. (Only very trusted people should be allowed, others should be punished) That way knowledge is gathered, and counters can be made. But... I doubt I can have such a big influence on the storyline in Dragon Age. Would be fun though.
I think there should actually be a certain amount of appointed people who study these kind of things. (Only very trusted people should be allowed, others should be punished) That way knowledge is gathered, and counters can be made. But... I doubt I can have such a big influence on the storyline in Dragon Age. Would be fun though.
#10
Posté 11 novembre 2009 - 12:35
Riot Inducer
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It's hard to say really, honestly the chantry's view comes off as part metaphor and part satire on mages to me. The Chantry is very anti-magic and I'll give them that they have a good reason for it as it seems demons will even possess your dirty socks if given the chance. But their zealotry turns them into rather oppressive and arrogant types who hate simply because something is different. I don't like the Chantry much being a mage and all and, to quote another BioWare game, "There is no inherent villainy in any martial action, only in the hearts of those who wield it."
At least part of the Chantry's reasoning behind the darkspawn is correct though, the archdemons are indeed corrupted variations of the old dragon gods, however if they were corrupted by the Tevinter mages or if they corrupted the mages to make the first darkspawn is up in the air. It's just as likely that the maker himself corrupted the dragons when he cast them down in order to be the "one and only" divine.
On a side note one of the most amusing bits I found was a book in orzamar that suggested that Andraste may have been in fact a very powerful mage. It makes sense given all the fantastic abilities and acts attributed to her not to mention the immensely amusing prospect of an order that hates mages inadvertently honorating one above all people.
At least part of the Chantry's reasoning behind the darkspawn is correct though, the archdemons are indeed corrupted variations of the old dragon gods, however if they were corrupted by the Tevinter mages or if they corrupted the mages to make the first darkspawn is up in the air. It's just as likely that the maker himself corrupted the dragons when he cast them down in order to be the "one and only" divine.
On a side note one of the most amusing bits I found was a book in orzamar that suggested that Andraste may have been in fact a very powerful mage. It makes sense given all the fantastic abilities and acts attributed to her not to mention the immensely amusing prospect of an order that hates mages inadvertently honorating one above all people.
#11
Posté 11 novembre 2009 - 12:43
KnightofPhoenix
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The Chantry quote of "Magic exists to serve man, not dominate him" is a great position though. I agree with them on this the most.
And I doubt the circle is capable of regulating itself on its own. The risks are too great. It was Uldred, a cricle Mage, who led to the catastrophe anyhow.
So while the Chantry, via the Templars, can be seen as too harsh, it just seems necessary. So what's worse. Being too leniant, or too harsh? Some think being too harsh on some issues is better than be too leniant. Safer that way.
Of course if I was a Mage, then I would definately seek to change the situation a bit. But it's clear that control is necessary. Not because of magic in and of itself. But protection from demons.
And I doubt the circle is capable of regulating itself on its own. The risks are too great. It was Uldred, a cricle Mage, who led to the catastrophe anyhow.
So while the Chantry, via the Templars, can be seen as too harsh, it just seems necessary. So what's worse. Being too leniant, or too harsh? Some think being too harsh on some issues is better than be too leniant. Safer that way.
Of course if I was a Mage, then I would definately seek to change the situation a bit. But it's clear that control is necessary. Not because of magic in and of itself. But protection from demons.
Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 11 novembre 2009 - 12:43 .
#12
Posté 11 novembre 2009 - 12:44
Haasth
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On a side note one of the most amusing bits I found was a book in orzamar that suggested that Andraste may have been in fact a very powerful mage. It makes sense given all the fantastic abilities and acts attributed to her not to mention the immensely amusing prospect of an order that hates mages inadvertently honorating one above all people.
Orzammar is next on my list then. Last place I have to visit before the landsmeet. Where did you find this exactly?
KnightofPhoenix wrote...
And I doubt the circle is capable of
regulating itself on its own. The risks are too great. It was Uldred, a
cricle Mage, who led to the catastrophe anyhow.
You must understand though that his initial motivation - before being... defiled - was to get rid of the Templar opressors. In a sense a noble action, which turned out bad, forced by the Chantry. I do expect things will continue like that if the Chantry do not losen their grib a little on the Mages.
I agree on the quote though, magic should only be used to serve man.
Modifié par Haasth, 11 novembre 2009 - 12:46 .
#13
Posté 11 novembre 2009 - 12:49
HavardTheAegis
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Loved the Archdemon in the Deep Trenches, that was a pretty BA scene
#14
Posté 11 novembre 2009 - 01:06
Maria Caliban
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Let's not turn this into a 'the Chantry is good/evil!' discussion. I don't care if they're eating babies in Val Rouyux; what I want to know is if their view of events is accurate.
1. We know that blood magic is powerful, and seems the most connected to the dark powers of the Fade than any other. We know that the mages of the Imperium were possibly the most powerful blood mages in existence and managed to enslave most of Thedas.
2. We know that they entered the Fade and many of them unleashed or bound powerful, malevolent spirits.
3. We know there was a golden city in the Fade and that this city is now black. Presumably, this happened sometime before the first Blight, though we’re not given any idea as to when it happened.
Even without the Maker or ‘mages are evil and corrupt!’ bits, the idea that the mages of the Imperium would attempt to enter the Golden City (you can see it everywhere in the Fade, but never physically enter it) is not a difficult one to believe. It would be the ultimate forbidden fruit. As powerful mages, and the lords of creation (Thedas is all they know), I can imagine generations of magisters attempting to enter the city.
That something bad might result from this also isn’t hard to believe.
Again, you don’t need the Maker to believe this. You just need human nature + incredible magic power + Golden City no one can reach.
According to the dwarves, darkspawn existed before the first Blight. That’s not surprising as it would take awhile before someone could find and corrupt the first archdemon. They don’t know where the darkspawn come from despite the fact that they had a massive, underground kingdom. The darkspawn couldn’t have been sitting around for centuries as the dwarves would have found them long ago.
The darkspawn require members of another race to multiply and aggressively seek them out. The dwarves should have noticed these creatures attack them and killing them in the deep roads long before the Imperium existed.
Why underground? The vale seems to be weaker there. I notice that the Fade itself and underground are the only places you find lyrium. It might not be the Maker forcing them there when they entered the Golden City, but simply them being shunted out into the material realm via the easiest path possible.
Lastly, they seek out high dragons to corrupt. A tie to the Imperial religion. If you look around darkspawn areas, you find statues of human men. Why would they erect them? It could be that their gods are were real, but it could also be that the darkspawn are just aping the beliefs of the magisters.
We know that belief creates things in the Fade. We encounter a number of powerful enemies that are merely the product of strong belief. The majority of the Imperium and the magisters themselves believes in the dragon gods. Could these archdemons be the same as the others?
1. We know that blood magic is powerful, and seems the most connected to the dark powers of the Fade than any other. We know that the mages of the Imperium were possibly the most powerful blood mages in existence and managed to enslave most of Thedas.
2. We know that they entered the Fade and many of them unleashed or bound powerful, malevolent spirits.
3. We know there was a golden city in the Fade and that this city is now black. Presumably, this happened sometime before the first Blight, though we’re not given any idea as to when it happened.
Even without the Maker or ‘mages are evil and corrupt!’ bits, the idea that the mages of the Imperium would attempt to enter the Golden City (you can see it everywhere in the Fade, but never physically enter it) is not a difficult one to believe. It would be the ultimate forbidden fruit. As powerful mages, and the lords of creation (Thedas is all they know), I can imagine generations of magisters attempting to enter the city.
That something bad might result from this also isn’t hard to believe.
Again, you don’t need the Maker to believe this. You just need human nature + incredible magic power + Golden City no one can reach.
According to the dwarves, darkspawn existed before the first Blight. That’s not surprising as it would take awhile before someone could find and corrupt the first archdemon. They don’t know where the darkspawn come from despite the fact that they had a massive, underground kingdom. The darkspawn couldn’t have been sitting around for centuries as the dwarves would have found them long ago.
The darkspawn require members of another race to multiply and aggressively seek them out. The dwarves should have noticed these creatures attack them and killing them in the deep roads long before the Imperium existed.
Why underground? The vale seems to be weaker there. I notice that the Fade itself and underground are the only places you find lyrium. It might not be the Maker forcing them there when they entered the Golden City, but simply them being shunted out into the material realm via the easiest path possible.
Lastly, they seek out high dragons to corrupt. A tie to the Imperial religion. If you look around darkspawn areas, you find statues of human men. Why would they erect them? It could be that their gods are were real, but it could also be that the darkspawn are just aping the beliefs of the magisters.
We know that belief creates things in the Fade. We encounter a number of powerful enemies that are merely the product of strong belief. The majority of the Imperium and the magisters themselves believes in the dragon gods. Could these archdemons be the same as the others?
#15
Posté 11 novembre 2009 - 01:13
Marik333
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The dwarves didn't fight the Darkspawn until the First Blight was led by Dumat INTO the Deep Roads.
Darkspawn are sensitive to sunlight. Even ghouls are easily harrassed by bright light. And I think it's fairly apparent that there's something a little extra that the Archdemons have that normal High Dragons do not (although the High Dragon Andraste "impersonater" does bring up many good questions).
As for knowing that there was once a Golden City, nobody actually knows that for sure. The Chantry teaches that it was once gold, and that it is now black, because of the Magisters, but as far as I've heard, they're the only group to either A) Care about the city, and
Say that it was once different than it now is.
Interestingly enough, it looks like most of the elven views on the Beyond and the afterlife completely ignore any golden/black City, whereas apparently even demons and other spirits will refuse to go near/talk about it at all.
Darkspawn are sensitive to sunlight. Even ghouls are easily harrassed by bright light. And I think it's fairly apparent that there's something a little extra that the Archdemons have that normal High Dragons do not (although the High Dragon Andraste "impersonater" does bring up many good questions).
As for knowing that there was once a Golden City, nobody actually knows that for sure. The Chantry teaches that it was once gold, and that it is now black, because of the Magisters, but as far as I've heard, they're the only group to either A) Care about the city, and
Say that it was once different than it now is.Interestingly enough, it looks like most of the elven views on the Beyond and the afterlife completely ignore any golden/black City, whereas apparently even demons and other spirits will refuse to go near/talk about it at all.
#16
Posté 11 novembre 2009 - 01:31
Maria Caliban
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The dwarves knew of the darkspawn before the first Blight. It's from a codex entry.
I'm almost sure that something other than the Chantry mentions the Golden City. That the elves never talk about this is frustrating because they can enter the Fade and they could obviously see the Black City. There's no way to *not* see it in the Fade.
Moreover, why don't the dalish have any legends in regards to the Blight and darkspawn? I find it very frustrating that the elven gods are set up as an alternative belief system, yet they don't actually try to give an alternative version of events, or the darkspawn, or Andreste, or the Golden/Black city, or the archdemons.
I'm almost sure that something other than the Chantry mentions the Golden City. That the elves never talk about this is frustrating because they can enter the Fade and they could obviously see the Black City. There's no way to *not* see it in the Fade.
Moreover, why don't the dalish have any legends in regards to the Blight and darkspawn? I find it very frustrating that the elven gods are set up as an alternative belief system, yet they don't actually try to give an alternative version of events, or the darkspawn, or Andreste, or the Golden/Black city, or the archdemons.
#17
Posté 11 novembre 2009 - 01:35
Marik333
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Can you find the exact quote (or at least tell me WHICH entry, since I have almost all of them) of where it says the dwarves knew about darkspawn before the first Blight? I believe you, I just want to see it for myself so I can know the exact phrasing.
#18
Posté 11 novembre 2009 - 01:42
MrGOH
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I think the Chantry may be right in a lot of the particulars, such as Mages storming the Golden City and turning it black and turning into darkspawn., but perhaps may be wrong about the nature of the Maker and the Black City. That is, it may be a construct made by people or people-like entities and not the seat of some anthropomorphic deity.
#19
Posté 11 novembre 2009 - 01:46
Mary Kirby
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Marik333 wrote...
Can you find the exact quote (or at least tell me WHICH entry, since I have almost all of them) of where it says the dwarves knew about darkspawn before the first Blight? I believe you, I just want to see it for myself so I can know the exact phrasing.
Sooo... I guess I'll head off a potential disagreement here and reveal that some of the codex entries read completely differently depending on which origin you play. "Blights" being one of them.
#21
Posté 11 novembre 2009 - 02:00
Marik333
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Mary Kirby wrote...
Marik333 wrote...
Can you find the exact quote (or at least tell me WHICH entry, since I have almost all of them) of where it says the dwarves knew about darkspawn before the first Blight? I believe you, I just want to see it for myself so I can know the exact phrasing.
Sooo... I guess I'll head off a potential disagreement here and reveal that some of the codex entries read completely differently depending on which origin you play. "Blights" being one of them.
Motherf...
Why must you torment us so? Have we offended you in some way?
Well, then... Maria, can you still provide a paraphrasation of the codex entry you are referring to?
Or can a dev tell us straight-up whether or not darkspawn existed prior to the First Blight?
Or... something?
#22
Posté 11 novembre 2009 - 02:20
Maria Caliban
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Mary Kirby wrote...
Marik333 wrote...
Can you find the exact quote (or at least tell me WHICH entry, since I have almost all of them) of where it says the dwarves knew about darkspawn before the first Blight? I believe you, I just want to see it for myself so I can know the exact phrasing.
Sooo... I guess I'll head off a potential disagreement here and reveal that some of the codex entries read completely differently depending on which origin you play. "Blights" being one of them.
That's a dirty trick!
An awesome dirty trick.
#23
Posté 11 novembre 2009 - 02:28
Mummolus
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Sooo... I guess I'll head off a potential disagreement here and reveal that some of the codex entries read completely differently depending on which origin you play. "Blights" being one of them.
As a history major, I can't help but love this (while simultaneously finding it incredibly frustrating). Kudos.
#24
Posté 11 novembre 2009 - 02:32
Sheryl Chee
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Maria Caliban wrote...
That's a dirty trick!
An awesome dirty trick.
I'm sure someone will find them all eventually and put them up on the wiki for all to see.
Right?
Modifié par Sheryl Chee, 11 novembre 2009 - 02:32 .
#25
Posté 11 novembre 2009 - 02:39
Maria Caliban
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Sheryl Chee wrote...
Maria Caliban wrote...
That's a dirty trick!
An awesome dirty trick.
I'm sure someone will find them all eventually and put them up on the wiki for all to see.
Right?
The first part of the game, I did not know you could use the TAB button to highlight everything you could click on. So last night, I spent ~5 hours running around Redcliffe, Redcliffe Castle, the Bracilian forest, Orzimmar, the Deep Roads, and the Circle with my finger glued to the TAB key in an attempt to gather everything I could.
Sadly, this means I missed many entries in the Fade, the Kacari Wilds, and Ostigar.
Modifié par Maria Caliban, 11 novembre 2009 - 02:48 .
