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[Riot Inducer]

Haasth wrote...
Orzammar is next on my list then. Last place I have to visit before the landsmeet. Where did you find this exactly?

I believe I got it in a locked chest in the shaperate (sp?). the book itself is a gift item but it's description states it's summary, I'm not sure if there's a codex entry linked to it actually, would be a shame if there wasn't.

And yeah the whole Mages vs Chantry thing is a rather useless debate, mages rebel against templar oppression and thus give the templars more fuel to their mage hate. It's a vicious cycle that's more or less screwed everyone magically inclined out of having much in the way of a normal "free" lifestyle.

I'm not to sure that the gold/black city was ever really "real" in as much as anything in the fade is real, apart from chantry folk no one, not even those within the fade, seem to make mention of it it's just as possible that the mages of the imperium sought to extend their dominion over the fade as well as the physical world and became possessed/corrupted by some extremely powerful demons.

I like the theory that the mages made the dragon gods real in the fade and brought them to the physical world, seeing as how they were all up on blood magic it might explain why the dragons were corrupt creatures instead of the benevolent dragons the Imperium worshiped.

At any rate I think how much you believe the Chantry's explanation of things is really about how much you believe in the Chantry's religion in the first place.

 

[Majspuffen]

I'm not sure what I beileve. Take the same stand as I take in real life. I deny nothing, they -could- be right, or they could be wrong. Doesn't change the fact that the darkspawn does exist (in dragon age at least. Hehehh, thank god for that). Even though I played as a mage, I respected the chantry. I think the templars were needed, even though they may have been a bit hard on the mages.



One thing I'd like to point out is that the darkspawn are born from native races. We learned from the game that one of the dwarves the darkspawn had captured was forced to eat her friends and that she eventually transformed into a broodmother, giving birth to more darkspawn. So perhaps it had nothing to do with magic at all, because I think that one broodmother would be enough to start the darkspawn.

[Ederz]

This is a tricky question as supposedly the maker had already left his creations when the mages invaded the 'golden city'. HOWEVER as it is pointed out the maker was already gone thus it brings up an interesting question that no one seems to answer that always bugged me. If the maker was gone when they corrupted the city and turned it black.. then who cast them out of the city?

[Reiella]

Ederz wrote...

This is a tricky question as supposedly the maker had already left his creations when the mages invaded the 'golden city'. HOWEVER as it is pointed out the maker was already gone thus it brings up an interesting question that no one seems to answer that always bugged me. If the maker was gone when they corrupted the city and turned it black.. then who cast them out of the city?

Perhaps the spirit of the old gods was trapped in the golden city, and the darkspawn are simply the fractured remnants of them trying to return to their bodies.  It will probably never really be answered, but further depth may well be found .

[tobajas]

Well this is a topic i do like religion

I've finished the game as a human noble and am now replaying as a human mage and dwarf noble



I have not managed to find every codex input missing maybe 2-3% i think.

But i do have some thoughts on the matter



First of im gonna state that the victor writes the history. Secondly the darkspawn were seen before the blight by the dwarves no suprise there since according to the Chantry it was for as far as i've found out only a few mages or alot of mages that entered the golden city and then were cast out. Not nearly enough to start a blight. So they had to have gathered forces for a while. Thirdly who can say that there really was a golden city to start with?



The chantry states that there was a golden city, but it is in the fade and only mages can enter the fade most of the time atleast, others rarely and they mostly dont remember anything from what i can gather. So how did the chantry folk who cannot enter the fade see the change of the golden city? Perhaps Andraste was a mage and could therefore see the change for herself. But what if she was not? Perhaps the maker showed her the change and told her of their crime. Why was she so special that he would love her so? Maybe it's more like a discussion i got into with Leilana in the game that what if the maker never really left in the first place. What if people just stopped worship him for the old god and was instead forgotten?



Enough with the speculations, time to state my so called "fact"



1 The dwarves meet the darkspawn long before the blight began



2 Andraste rose up (if i remember correctly) under the blight meaning the darkspawn had already existed for probaly atleast sevral years.



3 We can not be sure that the Golden city did exist in the first place and that it was not just the Black city from the start



4 The chantry slaughterd the elves after they helped them and were told that they would be left alone, slain because they wouldent belive in the chantrys point of view.



I could write on all night on this hehe.

The chantry reminds me of for example how the christians slaugtherd scientists during the 1700 because they said things that differed from the bible or was wrong according to the church for example that the world was round. While the chantrys words can be true the victors still always write the history and religion in particular writes what the people of that time wants to hear. Great example in the bible were (cant remember name) writes to one town that god hates gay and they should all die and then the next he says he loves them this is in the letter part from the bible.



But in this case im guessing the people with all the answer to all my and your questions are the writers

[Maria Caliban]

Majspuffen wrote...

One thing I'd like to point out is that the darkspawn are born from native races. We learned from the game that one of the dwarves the darkspawn had captured was forced to eat her friends and that she eventually transformed into a broodmother, giving birth to more darkspawn. So perhaps it had nothing to do with magic at all, because I think that one broodmother would be enough to start the darkspawn.

A single brood mother wouldn't be enough to start the race. You need a darkspawn to corrupt her, force-feed her the flesh of her own race, and impregnate her. She could certainly propagate them afterwards though.

Ederz wrote...

This is a tricky question as supposedly the maker had already left his creations when the mages invaded the 'golden city'. HOWEVER as it is pointed out the maker was already gone thus it brings up an interesting question that no one seems to answer that always bugged me. If the maker was gone when they corrupted the city and turned it black.. then who cast them out of the city?

As I understand it, they found the golden city empty.

[tobajas]

Majspuffen wrote...

One thing I'd like to point out is that the darkspawn are born from native races. We learned from the game that one of the dwarves the darkspawn had captured was forced to eat her friends and that she eventually transformed into a broodmother, giving birth to more darkspawn. So perhaps it had nothing to do with magic at all, because I think that one broodmother would be enough to start the darkspawn.

Mmh dwarf broodmother produce genlocks human broodmothers make hurlocks qunari broodmothers make ogres and elven broodmothers make shrieks. Also it was stated that one broodmother can produce unsure if it was a thousand darkspawn or thousands of darkspawn.

[starfleetau]

I'll add fuel to the fire here for a second.. The fade is a reflection of the dreams of the sentiant races, we know this because it's mentioned in more then one place.. The Fade is where we go to dream.. and to have nightmares.. In a way it's the 'subconsciousness' of reality..



So who is to say that the tower does appear to everyone? Perhaps it doesn't.. Also remember religion is typically a method for those who do not understand something fully to explain the events.. The fact that there are 'old gods' suggest that the maker isn't the 'all powerful' being that every one suggests he is.. The fact that we know spirits exist both in and out of the Fade.. suggests that perhaps all the maker and the other gods are.. Are spirits..



Something bad happened in the past thus is known.. the mages in their pride sort to rule everything.. and went into the fade thus is known.. and we know the Fade and the Demons in the fade can also create your greatest wish and your greatest nightmares.. and leave you something else..



To me it's an enigma.. the joy of a well plotted story that we are only glimpsing ... sections of, perhaps the maker was real.. or perhaps the prophetess was simply blessed by a helpful spirit like a certain companion.. and given WHAT she is said to have done.. Honestly I would suggest the great Prophetess herself WAS A MAGE.

[Maria Caliban]

starfleetau wrote...

So who is to say that the tower does appear to everyone?

The developers have said that everyone in the Fade sees the Black City.

Honestly I would suggest the great Prophetess herself WAS A MAGE.

There's no evidence of that though. Everyone enters the Fade in their dreams. Normal people can be contacted and possessed by spirits. I don’t recall her doing anything in the legends that appeared to be magic. If people like Jesus or Mohammed (who I assume were not wizards) can inspire an entire religion, why can’t Andreste?

[Reiella]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Honestly I would suggest the great Prophetess herself WAS A MAGE.

There's no evidence of that though. Everyone enters the Fade in their dreams. Normal people can be contacted and possessed by spirits. I don’t recall her doing anything in the legends that appeared to be magic. If people like Jesus or Mohammed (who I assume were not wizards) can inspire an entire religion, why can’t Andreste?

Andraste being a mage is actually brought up in game by NPCs [to be honest I don't recall which ones, so it destroys my point but hey].  I think it may have been Avernus, but that doesn't seem quite right either.

[0utlier]

Reiella wrote...

Andraste being a mage is actually brought up in game by NPCs [to be honest I don't recall which ones, so it destroys my point but hey].  I think it may have been Avernus, but that doesn't seem quite right either.

Theres a giftable book that lays out that hypothesis in its description.

[MBirkhofer]

I am pretty sure much of the background lore in the game is written expressly to be perceived as more legend then truth. Its all half truths, intentionally changed to represent being retold over and over until its myth.

I think the Maker is intended to be real in some form.
I think much of the mythology is a bit of a nod towards Warhammer mythology. The fade, demons, and gods being very similar to the warp. (Which is based on dnd lore as well of course)

I'm not all the way through the game, so some more lore could change my perspective.

But so far its noted Dwarves don't enter the fade.  why not?
Darkspawn are foreign to Demons.  (Wardens keep mage says this) This would seem to really put into question, the idea that darkspawn are somehow related to the mages being thrown out of the Black city.
Darkspawn can be created from all the known sentiant races, including dwarves.   This would suggest Darkspawn are definately not related to the fade at all.

Modifié par MBirkhofer, 11 novembre 2009 - 04:19 .

[Teshronesh]

Actually the mythology is, as stated by Bioware mainly from Wheel of Time and Song of Ice and Fire. The fade, the Templars, the Mages, the Tranquil and so on and probably even the Qunari may be recognized as elements of WoT, whereas the dark setting and plot structure originates mainly from SOIF

[Andros_Hanarak]

I wonder if the first darkspawn were demons who possesed the first mages who entered the fade and went underground to flee the sun and from there was born the legend. My guess is that one of the races must have dabbled in magic without understanding the connection with the fade and perhaps got possesed by a "demon".

[LdyShayna]

Teshronesh wrote...

Actually the mythology is, as stated by Bioware mainly from Wheel of Time and Song of Ice and Fire. The fade, the Templars, the Mages, the Tranquil and so on and probably even the Qunari may be recognized as elements of WoT, whereas the dark setting and plot structure originates mainly from SOIF

Errr...no.  They've said they were influenced by some of these things, not that the "actualy mythology" was taken from them.

[Taleroth]

Reiella wrote...

 It will probably never really be answered, but further depth may well be found .

I hope it does get answered.  My favorite adventures are planar.  I think it would be incredible to have a later Dragon Age game wherein the players actually enter into the Black City and see what it really is on the inside.  Talk to beings that were there.  Perhaps negotiate the return of the Elven Pantheon and the Maker.

[Nudo Judo]

The Chantry is probably wrong.  Time-wise, the golems seem to predate the Chantry, and the golems were created to fight off the darkspawn.  Now, I believe the Tevinter Imperium had something to do with the Blights, as it is their "old gods" that seem to be directing them (blood magic gone awry), but the darkspawn themselves are from some other... thing.  I have no idea what that thing is, so I'm just going to connect them to the DISTURBING lack of gnomes in this setting and baselessly assume the darkspawn are a result of a whacky gnome experiment gone horribly, horribly wrong.

My feeling on the Black City formerly being a Golden City is that the fade is a dream world, a collective of hope and fear.  When the darkspawn first showed, an impending doom fell on minds of the surfacers, and the Golden City, perhaps the manifestation of hope in the Fade, turned into a Black City, now a manifestation of this sense of a lingering global threat from the darkspawn.

[MBirkhofer]

Nudo Judo wrote...

The Chantry is probably wrong.  Time-wise, the golems seem to predate the Chantry, and the golems were created to fight off the darkspawn.  Now, I believe the Tevinter Imperium had something to do with the Blights, as it is their "old gods" that seem to be directing them (blood magic gone awry), but the darkspawn themselves are from some other... thing.  I have no idea what that thing is, so I'm just going to connect them to the DISTURBING lack of gnomes in this setting and baselessly assume the darkspawn are a result of a whacky gnome experiment gone horribly, horribly wrong.

My feeling on the Black City formerly being a Golden City is that the fade is a dream world, a collective of hope and fear.  When the darkspawn first showed, an impending doom fell on minds of the surfacers, and the Golden City, perhaps the manifestation of hope in the Fade, turned into a Black City, now a manifestation of this sense of a lingering global threat from the darkspawn.

Black city... Golden city.... Land?  Ah ha.   Some evil Tevinter mage found the Tri-force.  wished to be god.    And is now sending his darkspawn legions out to conquer the world.

[Ghurab]

What!?
TAB key?
Thank you Maria, you have just prevented a terrible case of Hindsightitis.

I owe you...

[Krysanos]

How about this? Not sure I've entirely thought it through, but going on the assumption that Maria mentions of the fade responding to strong belief . . .



Mages crossing into the fade weakened the barriers between the Fade and Thedas, allowing human belief to play a far greater role in shaping and influencing the fade. This creates the dragons/archdemons matching the old Tevinter religion.



Arguably the strongest source of belief existing in Thedas is the Chantry, and thus the fade eventually becomes shaped to match Chantry beliefs. The Golden City is blackened not because of the magisters entering it, but because the Chantry believe that magisters entering it caused it to blacken. Likewise, darkspawn are born out of the Chantry beliefs over what happened to the magisters (say some or all of the magisters were possessed in the fade, becoming abominations, and distorted human memory of that event created the Chantry belief in the first darkspawn that then actually created the "real" darkspawn in their current form)



So following this to its conclusion, the blights will end when the populace of Thedas believe they will end, and the Golden City will be restored when they believe it has been restored.

[Marik333]

Except that the Chantry was formed several generations AFTER Andraste who attacked the Imperium several generations AFTER the First Blight.



I seem to recall reading that men do not shape the Fade, but Spirits do. In fact, one of the mages in The Calling explains that the reason that the Fade seems to so mimic the human psyche is because the spirits there imitate what they see in the minds of dreamers. Wynne explained how it was "good spirits" who created the pleasant dreamworlds that most mortals experience, too.

[Wissenschaft]

Religion and how big the chantry plays in politics is the main difference between humans vs elves/dwarfs. You'll notice that everything has a religious undertone when you play as a human noble. Play as a Dwarf and you believe in no god. You simply wish to be as great or greater than your ancestors. Elves believe their gods have left them and they hope for their return.

Modifié par Wissenschaft, 11 novembre 2009 - 08:06 .

[Wissenschaft]

Krysanos:



Dwarfs where under attack from darkspawn before the chantry came up with its explanation for the blight so I doubt the darkspawn exist sole because of blief effecting the fade.

[Maria Caliban]

Reiella wrote...

Andraste being a mage is actually brought up in game by NPCs [to be honest I don't recall which ones, so it destroys my point but hey].  I think it may have been Avernus, but that doesn't seem quite right either.

I read the book, yes. It reminds me of people who claim that Jesus was gay; it's an interesting thought but not one with much evidence.

[Naurhir]

Any thoughts on whether The Maker is Fen'Harel, the Dread Wolf and Lord of Tricksters of Elven mythology?  The Maker supposedly punished the other gods, to become the One True God blablabla.

From C.E. strat guide, page 365, Elven history:

"As to why the gods didn't answer, our people had only a legend.  They say that Fen'Harel, the Dread Wolf and Lord of Tricksters, approached the gods of good and evil and proposed a truce.  The gods of good would remove themselves to heaven, and the lords of evil would exile themselves to the abyss, and neither group would ever again enter the others' lands.  By the time they realized the Dread Wolf's treachery, the had been sealed away in their respective realms, never again to interact with the mortal world.  It is a fable, to be sure, but those elves who travel the Beyond claim that Fen'Harel still roams the world of dreams, feasting upon the unwary as a glutton at his lunch, all the while keeping watch over the gods lest they escape from their prisons."

- The tale of The Fall of Arlathan, as told by Gisharel, keeper of the Ralaferin Tribe of the Dalish elves.

------------

It does say it is a mere fable, but then again isnt 99% of the Chant of Light just a collection of fables?  Possibly, Fen'Harel sealed them away in order to prevent their release, but in this case, it is The Maker, who sealed away his competition.  The Darkspawn may very well be the Tevinter Imperium somehow (though their main downfall was the barbarian hordes), who are traveling deep into the abyss to awake and corrupt their lords of evil, the high dragons.  So following this argument, what can we do to release the gods of good from heaven, to allow them their revenge upon The Maker, and assistance against the blight?