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[Reiella]

Marik333 wrote...

Can you find the exact quote (or at least tell me WHICH entry, since I have almost all of them) of where it says the dwarves knew about darkspawn before the first Blight? I believe you, I just want to see it for myself so I can know the exact phrasing.

A little late but hey.
Codex 161: The Blights [Human Noble] : it's from some rubble in the Crossings.

It doesn't necessarily conflict with the idea that Dumat made the Darkspawn attack the Deep Roads, but the dwarves didn't know about the 'Paragon among Darkspawn' until they made their way to the surface.  Especially given that it appears they were chaotic before the siting referenced by Aeducan in that letter.  I don't think the distinction of when the dwarves started fighting the darkspawn matters too much unless we can pin them to fighting them before the Tevinter mages screwed up.

[Athnamos]

eeh... regarding the qun belief about the blight. There is none, I don't think they know about the Blight at all. Seeing why Sten was sent to Ferelden in the first place, trying to know about the Blight.

[Thomas9321]

There is always the possibility that the Chantry's story is merely anti-Tevinter propaganda. The Chantry's teachings are all derived from Andraste, and who was Andraste at war with? The Tevinter Imperium. Now, I don't currently have access to the in game codex to fact check so correct me if I'm wrong. But when Andraste waged war against the Imperium the world had already been devastated by the first blight. What better way to slanderise your enemy than to blame them for a world ravaging crisis?

[Reiella]

Thomas9321 wrote...

There is always the possibility that the Chantry's story is merely anti-Tevinter propaganda. The Chantry's teachings are all derived from Andraste, and who was Andraste at war with? The Tevinter Imperium. Now, I don't currently have access to the in game codex to fact check so correct me if I'm wrong. But when Andraste waged war against the Imperium the world had already been devastated by the first blight. What better way to slanderise your enemy than to blame them for a world ravaging crisis?

Interesting to consider once you start looking at the 'Black Chantry'.

[Flamin Jesus]

But that sort of falls apart if you remember that the Tevinter Chantry which was, I believe, established at the same time, teaches mostly the same ideas about the Blights.

[MBirkhofer]

Flamin Jesus wrote...

But that sort of falls apart if you remember that the Tevinter Chantry which was, I believe, established at the same time, teaches mostly the same ideas about the Blights.

Tevinter Chantry was formed after, its noted in game to have been possibly started as an attempt to pacify/join the winning side.

Reading some Dwarven codex's.  The Orzammar entries note that the darkspawn did in fact start appearing shortly after they made contact and began trading with the Tevinter Imperium.

The Chantry says, the first sin was commited by the dragons(Old Gods), who tricked humans into worshiping them as false gods. And the Maker punished them by burying them underground.
Another hypothosis is the dragons were simply hibernating willingly underground.

It is noted that the high dragons(old gods) were contacting mages of the Imperium in the mages dreams before the darkspawn appeared.   This explains both dragon cults, archdemons doing it.  It also suggests the dragons were pulling strings prior to the blights.  Which is interesting, as it suggests the Tevinter mages may not be responsible, the highdragons themselves might be.


I think its interesting that after doing the Urn quest, Andraste does seem to be divine, and not just a mage.

[Spyre2001]

I haven't read all the codex info but as far as I can tell Demon possession seems to be more common these days then in the stories of old before the blight. And they talk about how the Tevinter mages were the "first abominations" which is what seems to happen because of demon possession. Given that this seems to line up with when they supposedly broke into the Golden City actually makes me wonder if the City was what they thought it was.



The Fade is not purely what we imagine it to be but rather more of what we "think we see". That is a barrier might appear to take different forms to different people but it will still be something that block ones path. And as such perhaps the mages encountered this giant sealed off area in the Fade and simply assumed it was a place that held great power.



Anyhow having discovered this area of the Fade the could not reach they forceably broke down the barrier. But little did they release the place had tons of powerful demons sealed inside who quickly overcame they mages. Thus possessing them and turning them into abominations. After which who knows what kind of magics they use to create or control the darkspawn since debates rise as to if the darkspawn were already around before this even.



I think this explanation that the Golden City was always "Black" makes more sense. People often try to blame some outside force as punishing them for misdeeds rather then admit that their own actions caused their down fall. Because if they blame someone else for the outcome then it shifts the blame off them. As in "We only wanted to improve ourselves for the betterment of the Imperium but The Maker took offense to that and punished us." That is not quote from the game but rather one I made up as the line of reasoning someone in their position would use and the same goes for real life as well. People often look for super natural excuses for their suffering to escape the fact they play some part in their own suffering either through their own actions or inaction. I know this may sound cruel but people often get what they deserve because they fail to consider what their actions will do. That doesn't mean I don't feel sorry for them but it was in their power to prevent it they just choose not to.

[Al-Ashaman]

Flamin Jesus wrote...

But that sort of falls apart if you remember that the Tevinter Chantry which was, I believe, established at the same time, teaches mostly the same ideas about the Blights.

Actually I think that is exactly what the two chantries differ on. I have a hard time seeing the First Enchanter as Divine of the Chantry if they agreed that mages are the source of the darkspawn, arguably the greatest threat the peoples of Thedas ever face.

[Spyre2001]

One thing I do find kind of interesting about the Dark Spawn though is they don't have a soul. Cariden (The creator of the golems) says that you can't create life which is why he needed to use souls to bring his golems to life. But on the other hand we have the darkspawn who are alive and yet have no souls?!? That is after all the whole reason the Gray Wardens are needed since their soul will destroy the soul of the Arch Demon.



Also it is hinted at the Archdemon may only look like a dragon an might not actually be one so the Archdemons are the sleep dragons of old could be wrong. Remember Flemiath could transform into a Dragon so it's not unreasonable the Archdemon is also a shapechanger and simply picked a powerful form. I recall some chat option where you ask if the archdemon was really a dragon and the reply was they didn't know. Also when you talk about why the Grey Warden's are needed to kill the Archdemon it is mentioned that it's soul could simply move to another darkspawn thus making it immortal which also seem to indicate that once it took that new host it would transform into a new dragon.

[Thomas9321]

Interesting idea. I always took it to mean the the possessed darkspawn would slowly transform into a dragon to reflect the Archdemon within. Also, the Archdemon's being the slumbering Old Gods seems to fit with how long the gap is between each Blight, the idea that the darkspawn just mindlessly tunnell definitely fits this.

A theory I thought of is, that the Old Gods subconsciously corrupted their followers into darkspawn in the hope of being found and awakened by them. However, I think the natur of the taint and their transformation into Archdemons upon exposure was a factor they didn't consider. How close this is the the teachings of the Chantry I don't know (still no access to the Codex). Actually going back to my propaganda idea, if this is true the story about the Tevinter Magisters could have been tacked on later by Andraste.

Modifié par Thomas9321, 14 novembre 2009 - 05:58 .

[AgnosticTheocrat]

I realize this is an old topic, but I didn't want to start a duplicate thread and I feel that the Chantry and the veracity of its claims are among the most important and interesting questions in the entire world of Thedas.

The Chantry and the story of Andraste are probably the most impressive storytelling feat within in Dragon Age. The writers have effectively crafted and entire religion which is remarkably similar, without being a complete copy, of many of the modern monotheistic faiths. Primary among the traits they share in common is a lack of definitive proof in the veracity of their beliefs.

It seems like some people seem to project their own real world preconceptions onto the Chantry due to its similarity to the Catholic church. Regardless of your own appraisal of the truth of religion in our own world, in Thedas there is nothing to suggest that Andraste was the Maker's prophetess, nor indeed that the Maker exists at all. While some, including Leliana it seems, consider Magic and spirits to be proof of his existence, certainly this could be used as proof of the Elven gods as well, or any other religion which makes claim to the creator god or gods.

The existence of other religions is itself an argument against treating the Chantry and it's beliefs of undeniable truth. The Qun would certainly argue against it, and as previous posters have illuminated, so would the Dwarves. The elves have a religion which predates the Chantry and they make no mention of The Maker, and neither do the Tevinters. I suspect that the attempt to square all of these beliefs as equally valid is a holdover from Dungeons & Dragons, where multiple faiths coexist and the existence of gods is plainly obvious.

As to what we do know, certainly the Black City exists, and it seems likely that it was not always the "Black City." There's little reason do doubt this, as it would seem to be an empirically verifiable change by any Mage, and numerous texts testify to such a change. That it was done by Magisters attempting to enter the city is impossible to prove, though I see no reason to suspect that it wasn't. This could also be the source of the Darkspawn, though there doesn't seem to be any connection between them and fade other than those attested to by the Chantry. The one exception seems to be the Archdemon and it's ability to influence your dreams, a notable arena of the fade in which it seems the most powerful of the Darkspawn holds at least some influence.

My own opinion is that the Maker does not exist, and that the "Old Gods" and Elven pantheon are in fact very, very powerful and old spirits of the Fade. This seems likely not only because of the seemingly less than benign beliefs of the Chantry, but also because the Maker occupies that sweet spot of being completely impossible to prove while also explaining everything in a tidy package. The truth is usually not so spotless, and certainly it's awfully convenient that the Maker has completely divested himself of contact with the world.

Furthermore, the one species with no ability to traverse the Fade whatsoever also is the one species without a belief in a supernatural creator or creators. This is why I suspect the Elven and Tevinter Gods are creatures of the Fade. This also suggests to me that the Elves and Tevinter Imperium has actual communication with their "deities", a luxury the Chantry cannot claim.

In any case, I think the way that Bioware has crafted the religions of Thedas is infinitely more interesting than anything in the Forgotten Realms, and certainly provides more fodder for discussion.

Modifié par AgnosticTheocrat, 27 novembre 2009 - 06:51 .