After playing the games and reading, "The Stolen Throne" and "The Calling," I must admit that I believe Teyrn Loghain Mac Tir to be the deepest character with the richest back story in the Dragon Age Universe. There wouldn't be much of a story without him.
When we’re introduced to Loghain, he was rescuing then Prince Maric after his mother, The Rebel Queen of Ferelden, was betrayed and murdered. Loghain’s father charged him with keeping Maric safe shortly before he was killed while creating a diversion for Maric's escape from the same Orlesian conspirators that killed his mother. His courage became evident early on when goading an Orlesian force to follow him on a sure suicide mission that probably saved Ferelden. We find out in the games that Loghain is a tragic hero, as his own weaknesses and shortsighted ambitions lead to the death of King Cailin and many Grey Wardens to begin DA:O. I decided to let Loghain live as a Warden at the conclusion of Origins and was happy to see him in service as I played Awakening. From a commoner to near King, an outlaw to a Grey Warden, there's certainly a lot to like about Teyrn Loghain.
By the way, his daughter is my new queen of Ferelden. What do you think?
Why Teyrn Loghain is the deepest character in Dragon Age
Débuté par
Irish Guerrilla
, août 15 2010 05:21
Retour en haut
#2
Posté 15 août 2010 - 05:30
Spartas Husky
-
- Members
- 6 151 messages
Foolish man who is overly patriotic and short sighted. A man who does not learn from history is an idiot, and he is certainly one. Whether from ambition or "patriotism" he is responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands. How many families wont see their beloved just because he wanted Cailen dead. He didn't do it himself because he is a coward, a calculating bastard.
I am glad to spare him, death is too good and short for him. What better than to live in paranoia amongst Orlesian grey wardens, to be treated as a bag boy amongst the grey wardens.
When I saw him get sent to Orlais I was laughing... poetic justice... live the rest of your life outside your damn beloved country surrounded by those you call enemies... on top of it, always being hated for the death of many grey wardens.... sigh like the old saying goes:
"the best punishment is to remember the glory days while living in misery"
I am glad to spare him, death is too good and short for him. What better than to live in paranoia amongst Orlesian grey wardens, to be treated as a bag boy amongst the grey wardens.
When I saw him get sent to Orlais I was laughing... poetic justice... live the rest of your life outside your damn beloved country surrounded by those you call enemies... on top of it, always being hated for the death of many grey wardens.... sigh like the old saying goes:
"the best punishment is to remember the glory days while living in misery"
#3
Posté 15 août 2010 - 05:45
bluecuban
-
- Members
- 211 messages
I agree with Spartas. I only spared him because I didn't feel he had the right to get away with his crimes so easily. Even at the end he felt he had the right to sacrifice himself to the Archdemon to try and be named a hero a second time to wash away his crimes? I don't think so.
Have you ever tried playing through Return to Ostagar with Loghain? The Landsmeet clearly did not give him any change in perspective as he was still as short-sighted and paranoid as ever. The fact that he was sent off to Orlais was a bittersweet justice knowing he's not going back to Gwaren, and he is out of Ferelden - hopefully he doesn't tick off too many Chevaliers.
Reading the books actually just made me fear that my Warden could become like him one day considering the similarities in journeys.
Have you ever tried playing through Return to Ostagar with Loghain? The Landsmeet clearly did not give him any change in perspective as he was still as short-sighted and paranoid as ever. The fact that he was sent off to Orlais was a bittersweet justice knowing he's not going back to Gwaren, and he is out of Ferelden - hopefully he doesn't tick off too many Chevaliers.
Reading the books actually just made me fear that my Warden could become like him one day considering the similarities in journeys.
#4
Posté 15 août 2010 - 06:26
Persephone
-
- Members
- 7 989 messages
I was about to start my reply with a warning like: Expect a lot of Loghain bashing....
But that would be too late, I suppose.
There aren't many characters who inspire such division. To his detractors he is evil incarnate. They tear him to shreds, no matter what. To his supporters he is the misunderstood anti-hero who, scarred by traumata endured during the occupation, made wrong decisions, some of which were the decisions nobody "wants" to make but are sometimes necessary.
I myself prefer the anti-hero interpretation. I take no delight in butchering him in front of his daughter (Some do, it sickens me), I do not think that his hatred of Orlais is unwarranted or overly paranoid, after "The Calling", I also understand his contempt for the Wardens. Do I condone everything he did? No. Do I think his desire to sacrifice his life AND soul to destroy the AD were motivated by wanting to be a hero? No. He only has contempt for hero worship, he'll tell you that more than once. Of course him begging you to allow him to "do one last thing right" can only be a last grab at glory, right? Hello, have you met Loghain? Glory, tales, heroism...he despises all that short lived nonsense.
Playing RTO with him was as engaging as it was illuminating. Nobody shuts Wynne up like him, hah!
Anyway, back to the original poster: Yes, I agree. He has more depth than all the other DAO and DAA characters combined. Flaws and all.
As for those he "calls enemies": He has every right after what happened during the occupation.
But that would be too late, I suppose.
There aren't many characters who inspire such division. To his detractors he is evil incarnate. They tear him to shreds, no matter what. To his supporters he is the misunderstood anti-hero who, scarred by traumata endured during the occupation, made wrong decisions, some of which were the decisions nobody "wants" to make but are sometimes necessary.
I myself prefer the anti-hero interpretation. I take no delight in butchering him in front of his daughter (Some do, it sickens me), I do not think that his hatred of Orlais is unwarranted or overly paranoid, after "The Calling", I also understand his contempt for the Wardens. Do I condone everything he did? No. Do I think his desire to sacrifice his life AND soul to destroy the AD were motivated by wanting to be a hero? No. He only has contempt for hero worship, he'll tell you that more than once. Of course him begging you to allow him to "do one last thing right" can only be a last grab at glory, right? Hello, have you met Loghain? Glory, tales, heroism...he despises all that short lived nonsense.
Playing RTO with him was as engaging as it was illuminating. Nobody shuts Wynne up like him, hah!
Anyway, back to the original poster: Yes, I agree. He has more depth than all the other DAO and DAA characters combined. Flaws and all.
As for those he "calls enemies": He has every right after what happened during the occupation.
#5
Posté 15 août 2010 - 06:50
Addai
-
- Members
- 25 850 messages
It's kind of ironic that you criticize generalizations using generalizations.Persephone wrote...
There aren't many characters who inspire such division. To his detractors he is evil incarnate. They tear him to shreds, no matter what. To his supporters he is the misunderstood anti-hero who, scarred by traumata endured during the occupation, made wrong decisions, some of which were the decisions nobody "wants" to make but are sometimes necessary.
Many of the characters are deep. Loghain is a well-written flawed character, as are many of David Gaider's characters. The story would not be what it is without him, though I think it's stretching it to say he's the "deepest." Let's put that into the category of personal preference.
What interests me most about him is his friendship with Maric. I'll admit that Maric is the character I liked more out of the novels, but still, Maric would not be Maric without Loghain and vice versa. I love this comic:
#6
Posté 15 août 2010 - 07:08
Dragonfliet
-
- Members
- 32 messages
I always thought Loghain could have been a deep character, but that the chance was missed by a longshot. In particular, when Arl Eamon talks about how out of character Loghain has been acting I thought there would be some interesting justification that made the character feel rich, but it didn't happen at all. It was really a shame. I haven't read the books, but if you have to seek outside material to understand what happens, something has gone terribly wrong.
Honestly, the only character that felt like a deep and rich person was Morrigan. While she was overly abrasive, her opinions and actions all felt organic, especially in the contradictions (for example: most dismissive of love, but one of the only love interests that gets mad if you sleep with the captain) that she embodies. I was so struck by her sense of loyalty and concept of right v wrong that was paired with a strong shade of sadism in my good-hearted female character that I knew I had to roll a male rogue type character for my second bout.
Honestly, the only character that felt like a deep and rich person was Morrigan. While she was overly abrasive, her opinions and actions all felt organic, especially in the contradictions (for example: most dismissive of love, but one of the only love interests that gets mad if you sleep with the captain) that she embodies. I was so struck by her sense of loyalty and concept of right v wrong that was paired with a strong shade of sadism in my good-hearted female character that I knew I had to roll a male rogue type character for my second bout.
#7
Posté 15 août 2010 - 08:42
CalJones
-
- Members
- 3 205 messages
Loghain is certainly the most polarising character in the game - certainly, no one else inspires such passionate debate.
I have to admit he could be fleshed out a bit more in game - certainly on a player's first runthrough, he comes across as a pretty straightforward villain, if you aren't aware of his backstory. I agree that it's a bit of a missed opportunity. However, even during my first play I found myself drawn to the character, and very much regretted executing him after that hideous cutscene. I recruited him on my second run and he's now an essential character for my party. I just wish we got to keep him a little longer.
I have to admit he could be fleshed out a bit more in game - certainly on a player's first runthrough, he comes across as a pretty straightforward villain, if you aren't aware of his backstory. I agree that it's a bit of a missed opportunity. However, even during my first play I found myself drawn to the character, and very much regretted executing him after that hideous cutscene. I recruited him on my second run and he's now an essential character for my party. I just wish we got to keep him a little longer.
#8
Posté 15 août 2010 - 08:53
phaonica
-
- Members
- 3 435 messages
I won't claim he's the deepest character, but he is my favorite one.
I
Loghain, Daggers and All
I
Loghain, Daggers and All
Modifié par phaonica, 15 août 2010 - 08:55 .
#9
Posté 15 août 2010 - 09:02
phaonica
-
- Members
- 3 435 messages
CalJones wrote...
However, even during my first play I found myself drawn to the character, and very much regretted executing him after that hideous cutscene. I recruited him on my second run and he's now an essential character for my party. I just wish we got to keep him a little longer.
I did something very similar. I wanted to spare him even on my very first playthrough, but I didn't. I actually started my second character specifically for a Ferelden Queen ending, yet when she got to the execution, unlike my first character, she couldn't go through with executing him.
#10
Posté 15 août 2010 - 09:37
devilsgrin
-
- Members
- 299 messages
i just have to disagree with the OP slightly. In the GAME, Loghain is particularly shallow, compared to say Morrigan or even Alistair. We are given his motives, backstory (a limited rundown of him supposedly being a "Hero") then after barely one Act of the game, he becomes the Arch-Villain of the piece... even his cut scenes do little to flesh him out as anything more that a mad despot.
To say that he is the deepest, whilst citing material OUTSIDE the game to make your point is rather unfair. Since i rarely read novellisations or prequel novels for games (owing in regard to these books and the Mass Effect ones, to something of a resentment in regards to EA and their game flavour destroying policies), i can only imagine the character painted in the Calling and Stolen Throne... still. You can't make a claim like this without all the other companions having novels of their own. Since they don't, Loghain may take an overall depth victory, but its not due to any flaws of depth regarding any other characters and the depth they are portrayed with in the GAME
I understand Flemeth makes something of an appearance in the books also, and i for one find her to be perhaps the deepest of the non-party characters.
To say that he is the deepest, whilst citing material OUTSIDE the game to make your point is rather unfair. Since i rarely read novellisations or prequel novels for games (owing in regard to these books and the Mass Effect ones, to something of a resentment in regards to EA and their game flavour destroying policies), i can only imagine the character painted in the Calling and Stolen Throne... still. You can't make a claim like this without all the other companions having novels of their own. Since they don't, Loghain may take an overall depth victory, but its not due to any flaws of depth regarding any other characters and the depth they are portrayed with in the GAME
I understand Flemeth makes something of an appearance in the books also, and i for one find her to be perhaps the deepest of the non-party characters.
Modifié par devilsgrin, 15 août 2010 - 09:44 .
#11
Posté 15 août 2010 - 03:51
MKDAWUSS
-
- Members
- 3 416 messages
I didn't feel like executing him primarily because of his renown as a general, and for the fact that I don't think he was going to betray someone twice. I think that he does have a lot to offer as a Grey Warden.
#12
Posté 15 août 2010 - 04:00
Irish Guerrilla
-
- Members
- 37 messages
Some interesting replies for sure. I certainly didn't mean to represent that I side with Loghain's decision making. Many in this thread seem to berate his actions (understandably) without appreciating what a focal character he is. My point is that in the DA Universe (NOT just the game devilsgrin) Loghain has such an interesting back story, current story, and possibly future story. I am in total agreement with a few of you that the developers left this gem of a character largely untapped, but am really hoping for some DLC at some point.
One point I left out is why Loghain found himself in such detriment. Spartas Husky nailed it when explaining just how patriotic Loghain is / was. IMO, this makes him more likable but I certainly see the foolish angle as well.
Dragonfliet, based solely on the games, I tend to agree that Morrigan was also an extremely deep character. She may have been my personal favorite. The voice acting was tremendous as well. Like I mentioned before, I feel like a Teyrn Loghain quest would make for some fantastic DLC. A Morrigan-inspired DLC adventure would probably sell as many copies as Awakening! Whereas Loghain is extremely polarizing, I believe Morrigan may be on everyone's shortlist for favorite gaming character of all time!
One point I left out is why Loghain found himself in such detriment. Spartas Husky nailed it when explaining just how patriotic Loghain is / was. IMO, this makes him more likable but I certainly see the foolish angle as well.
Dragonfliet, based solely on the games, I tend to agree that Morrigan was also an extremely deep character. She may have been my personal favorite. The voice acting was tremendous as well. Like I mentioned before, I feel like a Teyrn Loghain quest would make for some fantastic DLC. A Morrigan-inspired DLC adventure would probably sell as many copies as Awakening! Whereas Loghain is extremely polarizing, I believe Morrigan may be on everyone's shortlist for favorite gaming character of all time!
#13
Posté 15 août 2010 - 04:38
Addai
-
- Members
- 25 850 messages
Doubt we'll see future-Loghain DLC, since many if not most players execute him. But I would love a young Loghain/Maric DLC. Preferably with Night Elves!
#14
Posté 15 août 2010 - 05:24
Persephone
-
- Members
- 7 989 messages
Addai67 wrote...
It's kind of ironic that you criticize generalizations using generalizations.Persephone wrote...
There aren't many characters who inspire such division. To his detractors he is evil incarnate. They tear him to shreds, no matter what. To his supporters he is the misunderstood anti-hero who, scarred by traumata endured during the occupation, made wrong decisions, some of which were the decisions nobody "wants" to make but are sometimes necessary.
Excuse me? The whole paragraph above is merely how I see the two Loghain "parties". (Pro & Contra) And I also doubt that "most" execute him at the Landsmeet.
#15
Posté 15 août 2010 - 05:45
Kornichon
-
- Members
- 247 messages
I don't like Loghain.... but fanarts like this totally make me love him 
(by http://batata-tasha.deviantart.com/ )
(by http://batata-tasha.deviantart.com/ )
Modifié par Kornichon, 15 août 2010 - 05:46 .
#16
Posté 15 août 2010 - 06:18
CalJones
-
- Members
- 3 205 messages
LMAO! I must admit to having a few lustful thoughts about him myself (and yes I am female, despite my preference for playing male characters. I'd rather marry Anora and have the most awesome father in law ever, than marry Alistair).
#17
Posté 15 août 2010 - 06:28
Spartas Husky
-
- Members
- 6 151 messages
lol wow... just wow to that fanart hehehe
#18
Posté 15 août 2010 - 07:03
CaisLaochach
-
- Members
- 165 messages
Really well written character alright.
That combination of intelligence, arrogance, confidence and so on makes for an awesome downfall.
That combination of intelligence, arrogance, confidence and so on makes for an awesome downfall.
#19
Posté 15 août 2010 - 07:07
Spartas Husky
-
- Members
- 6 151 messages
CalJones wrote...
I'd rather marry Anora and have the most awesome father in law ever, than marry Alistair).
that left me speechless....lol
#20
Posté 15 août 2010 - 08:16
Persephone
-
- Members
- 7 989 messages
Spartas Husky wrote...
CalJones wrote...
I'd rather marry Anora and have the most awesome father in law ever, than marry Alistair).
that left me speechless....lol
LOL
Just the way he says "I asked Anora if there were plans for an heir....." ROFL. Father in law of my dreams!
#21
Posté 15 août 2010 - 08:39
Spartas Husky
-
- Members
- 6 151 messages
wait when does Loghain says " I asked Anora"???
I just dont get why some Like him... if you fenshu or w/e is called the psycotic patriotism, blind arrogance aside, the he killed his daughter's husband aside.... then yeah he is sort of.... not good but you can understand him.... but!!!... female players!!!!! he sold women into slavery... kids!!! man if I had the option I would cut his balls off, and sell them to a krogan.... or a dwarf in this game I guess it would translate to.
I actually understood his point after Ostagar... didn't like him but understood him and respected him in a way.... but that all went zipo when I saw the elves being sold into slavery just because he didn't want to loose to me.
I just dont get why some Like him... if you fenshu or w/e is called the psycotic patriotism, blind arrogance aside, the he killed his daughter's husband aside.... then yeah he is sort of.... not good but you can understand him.... but!!!... female players!!!!! he sold women into slavery... kids!!! man if I had the option I would cut his balls off, and sell them to a krogan.... or a dwarf in this game I guess it would translate to.
I actually understood his point after Ostagar... didn't like him but understood him and respected him in a way.... but that all went zipo when I saw the elves being sold into slavery just because he didn't want to loose to me.
#22
Posté 15 août 2010 - 08:57
phaonica
-
- Members
- 3 435 messages
Persephone wrote...
Spartas Husky wrote...
CalJones wrote...
I'd rather marry Anora and have the most awesome father in law ever, than marry Alistair).
that left me speechless....lol
LOL
Just the way he says "I asked Anora if there were plans for an heir....." ROFL. Father in law of my dreams!
That cameo totally makes the cost of Awakening worth it.
#23
Posté 15 août 2010 - 09:11
Spartas Husky
-
- Members
- 6 151 messages
phaonica wrote...
Persephone wrote...
Spartas Husky wrote...
CalJones wrote...
I'd rather marry Anora and have the most awesome father in law ever, than marry Alistair).
that left me speechless....lol
LOL
Just the way he says "I asked Anora if there were plans for an heir....." ROFL. Father in law of my dreams!
That cameo totally makes the cost of Awakening worth it.
damn... when does he says it in awakenings?... I never heard that in either my fem warden or male warden playthroughs....
#24
Posté 15 août 2010 - 09:35
DWSmiley
-
- Members
- 1 431 messages
Love him or hate him one has to respect Loghain's ability to spawn endless multi-page threads - and also usurp threads not originally about him. There is no disputing he is heroic in that sense.
#25
Posté 15 août 2010 - 09:50
CalJones
-
- Members
- 3 205 messages
Spartas - you only get that if you import a character who has recruited Loghain and done the DR. So essentially he has to survive Origins to show up in Awakening. Then he'll show up at Vigil's Keep during the game.
