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[Costin_Razvan]

But they didn't always fight the Romans and Persians in the desert proper. Rather in the fertile crescent, where it's not that much of a desert. The battle of Al Qadissiyah was not in the desert and was in upper Iraq. Not to mention the expansions into Sindh, Spain and Anatolia.

True, but the point is that in armor you tire far more quickly then in say leather or linen. And that is an advantage which a skilled commander can use to win. Heavy armor always was and still is a double edged sword.

P.S. Impression on FF? If you cared to read that is.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 25 août 2010 - 03:11 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Will read it now. Chapter 4 right?

[Costin_Razvan]

The other one, from the trailer I gave you. You can find it here: http://tiny.cc/mdwz9

[Monica21]

phaonica wrote...
For such a deep character, do we have so little to say about him (other than the usual debates)?
So, for my mod, I'm in the middle of writing dialog for if/when you take Loghain with you to do the Paragon of her Kind, Broken Circle, and Nature of the Beast questlines. I have an idea of when and where and how Loghain might comment on these quests, but what do you all think? What do you think he'd comment on in these areas, and who do you think he'd side with?

I'm pretty much in agreement with everything said so far.

I'm not sure if any companions have comments after Bhelen arrests Harrowmont, but I think he would agree with why Bhelen did it. He'd probably see the use of the Anvil, but could be persuaded against it. Of course he'd have something to say in Ortan Thaig, maybe warning of spiders or that it recovered rather well from the fire.

I can't see him siding with the werewolves at all. They're cursed and they want the curse removed. Not to mention that tearing apart an entire clan is just bad politics, combined with his actions in the Alienage.

Not sure about the Circle Tower. Did he ever trust mages? He only used Uldred to get the Circle on his side, but I didn't think that was an indicator of his general feeling towards them.

[Irish Guerrilla]

God I love reading this thread. I'm so overmatched by you all, but am in awe of your posts.



Sidenote - I also need to log in each visit lately and I also agree that being finished with school is a blessing!

[Costin_Razvan]

I can't see him siding with the werewolves at all.

I don't consider slaughtering the elves as siding with the Werewolves, but rather manipulating the Werewolves into achieving your own goals rather then ones they want to achieve, which is sorta why I love it .

But in my mind, I find the Werewolves better then the elves as troops, now mind you people can disagree but if Loghain had the same viewpoint as I did and also knowing that there is no guarantee that the elves will even fight and that other clans will join them, then manipulating the Werewolves would give you a stronger fighting force, at least that is how I see it without metagaming.

 Did he ever trust mages? He only used Uldred to get the Circle on his side, but I didn't think that was an indicator of his general feeling towards them.

He saw the mages as weapons, and you never trust a weapon for it can be easily turned against you if you are not careful.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 25 août 2010 - 03:26 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

The other one, from the trailer I gave you. You can find it here: http://tiny.cc/mdwz9

I admit, I am slightly confused, but I was never a fan of cross fiction (in fact, I hate them).
But your writing style made it tolerable for me. It's entertaining to read actually.

[Monica21]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I can't see him siding with the werewolves at all.

I don't consider slaughtering the elves as siding with the Werewolves, but rather manipulating the Werewolves into achieving your own goals rather then ones they want to achieve, which is sorta why I love it .

But in my mind, I find the Werewolves better then the elves as troops, now mind you people can disagree but if Loghain had the same viewpoint as I did and also knowing that there is no guarantee that the elves will even fight and that other clans will join them, then manipulating the Werewolves would give you a stronger fighting force, at least that is how I see it without metagaming.

True, but I can't see how the potential of pissing off the other Dalish clans and letting the werewolves continue to spread their curse can be considered a good thing. By this point, I'd think Loghain wouldn't just be thinking about how to stop the Blight but also how to rebuild Ferelden once the Blight was over.

[Costin_Razvan]

True, but I can't see how the potential of pissing off the other Dalish clans and letting the werewolves continue to spread their curse can be considered a good thing. By this point, I'd think Loghain wouldn't just be thinking about how to stop the Blight but also how to rebuild Ferelden once the Blight was over.

The Dalish:



1) Are not a threat.

2) Will not find out if you kill the only surviving hunter group

3) Have all left Fereldan save for Zathrian's clan.



As for the Werewolves and their curse, who is to say one cannot put them to good use? The way I see it is that they have no goal, but I would give them one: Fighting Fereldan's enemies.



I would send them into Orlais to wreck havoc while my army built up to conquer the country, or I would use them as a shock force for reclaiming the Deep Roads.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I think you place too much confidence in your ability to lead them. While they pledge allegiance to you vis a vis fighting the blight, it's clear that the only one who can truly lead them is the Lady, as only she soothes them and makes them amendable to reason. So you will have to convince her. And I don't think she would care about Ferelden that much as to allow you to use her werewolves like this.

[Costin_Razvan]

True, only the Lady can lead them, but she does seek to find a place for her people in the world.

I can give them such a place, and mind you my main goal has always been to defeat the Darkspawn, a goal I think she and I could agree is doing the world a good.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 25 août 2010 - 04:00 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Why would she care about fighting Orlais for instance?

I am not sure that place she seeks involves following your orders. As much as I would have liked to create a world where werelwolves can be participatory citizens alongside the rest (and use them), Fereldans have a hard time tolerating elves let alone werewolves as it is, which is what the epilogue says.

EDIT: I can imagine it possible to convince the Lady to fight in the deep roads, but she was motivated by self preservation as far as I understood. Why would she care much about endless hordes underground as to risk the lives of her people that are too few as it is?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 25 août 2010 - 04:05 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Why would she care about fighting Orlais for instance?

I am not sure that place she seeks involves following your orders. As much as I would have liked to create a world where werelwolves can be participatory citizens alongside the rest (and use them), Fereldans have a hard time tolerating elves let alone werewolves as it is, which is what the epilogue says.

Why would she allow her followers to set the curse on human settlements? Because she has a craving for war inside, ( which is pointed out in the epilogue ) one that she cannot wholly control and I being the master manipulator would play her as a puppeteer.

And yet she is also a spirit of nature, one to defend it against fiends like the Darkspawn. Would she not jump at the chance to utterly destroy those who pose the greatest threat to nature: The Darkspawn?

Also it seems to based on the Epilogue that the Humans tolerate the Werewolves far more then they do the elves until the Werewolves set the curse on a few human settlements.

But taken from the Codex about Mabari Knight:

Hafter, the first man to be named teyrn, the hero who united our Alamarri ancestors to drive back the darkspawn of the second Blight, was reputed to be the son of a werewolf.

Now, perhaps this was meant to be some comment on his temperament, or simply a way of making a great man even larger than life. But more than half the noble families of Ferelden claim to be descendants of Hafter, and consequently, many of our people believe they have some distant kinship with wolves.

It is only good manners to be polite to one's kin.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 25 août 2010 - 04:10 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Eh, it's just a myth. Same way the founders of Rome were supposely raised by a wolf.

As I recall, the werewolves were provoked. And the Lady couldn't fully control the werewolves, but that does not suggest she craves for war.

[Costin_Razvan]

Eh, it's just a myth. Same way the founders of Rome were supposely raised by a wolf.

True, but it because of this myth that Mabari are so respected ( at least in part ).

As I recall, the werewolves were provoked. And the Lady couldn't fully control the werewolves, but that does not suggest she craves for war.

Not really. From the wiki: "If The Warden killed the Dalish the werewolves will be respected for a while due to their part in stopping the blight. However as time passes they fail to completely suppress their violent instincts and eventually attack nearby human settlements leading to the humans gathering in force to finally wipe them out for good. But when said armies march all they find are abandoned camps. The Lady of the Forest and her followers disappeared"

[KnightofPhoenix]

I concede that point. But that does not mean that the Lady is responsable or that she craves for war. It simply means she isn't capable of restraining them fully. Which actually makes them dangerous to you as much as anyone.

[Sarah1281]

Not really. From the wiki: "If The Warden killed the Dalish the werewolves will be respected for a while due to their part in stopping the blight. However as time passes they fail to completely suppress their violent instincts and eventually attack nearby human settlements leading to the humans gathering in force to finally wipe them out for good. But when said armies march all they find are abandoned camps. The Lady of the Forest and her followers disappeared"

That still doesn't suggest that the Lady herself couldn't suppress violent instincts, just that even she couldn't completely soothe her followers.

[CalJones]

I think Loghain would be more likely to go with the Dalish (or ending the curse) due to his history with them.

There could be a conversation after meeting Zathrian about letting hatred fester for so long. I see parallels between Zathrian and Loghain - in a way, both have allowed their people to suffer through their hatred of an old enemy. It's just Zathrian has more (magical) power and has had a lot longer to let the hatred fester.

Regarding the Circle, he'd definitely be trading words with Wynne, if you don't kill her, since she is very quick to blame him. He'd also have something to say about Uldred - perhaps he might even show some regret at choosing the wrong ally, in this instance (I say perhaps, because showing regret doesn't seem to be high on his list of things to do).

[Costin_Razvan]

I think Loghain would be more likely to go with the Dalish (or ending the curse) due to his history with them.

Loghain also allowed elves to be sold into slavery. People put too much stock into him liking the elves, what people need to understand is that men like Loghain see them as tools, weapons of war as you might call them and you should always be ready to discard tools if need be ( he says this himself in Redclife if you talk with him about leading an army )

I concede that point. But that does not mean that the Lady is responsable or that she craves for war. It simply means she isn't capable of restraining them fully. Which actually makes them dangerous to you as much as anyone.

Actually, in the epilogue text it is mentioned that she had her own urges as well for this, and gave in to them.



It is understandable in a way...but way if one could direct them at a foe to unleash their bloodthirst on, then they could be controlled in a sense.

[Monica21]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Loghain also allowed elves to be sold into slavery. People put too much stock into him liking the elves, what people need to understand is that men like Loghain see them as tools, weapons of war as you might call them and you should always be ready to discard tools if need be ( he says this himself in Redclife if you talk with him about leading an army )

I haven't talked to him past the Landsmeet, but in the Landsmeet conversation I always got the impression that it wasn't the elves that were tools so much as the Alienage itself. I can't recall the exact dialogue, but I got the impression that even he didn't care for doing it, that he thought it lessened him, but he did need the money to fill the war chests. The area was easily controlled, was in a state of unrest already, and in his mind he justified it by wondering who would miss the elves anyway.

What I mean to say by all that is that I always thought that if the Alienage were a human slum he would have done the same thing.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Actually, in the epilogue text it is mentioned that she had her own urges as well for this, and gave in to them.

This is not what te wikia says and I do not recall anything about the Lady herself not resisting the urge. Only her followers. Two very different things.
Unless you can post the epilogue slide to prove your point.

[CalJones]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I think Loghain would be more likely to go with the Dalish (or ending the curse) due to his history with them.

Loghain also allowed elves to be sold into slavery. People put too much stock into him liking the elves, what people need to understand is that men like Loghain see them as tools, weapons of war as you might call them and you should always be ready to discard tools if need be ( he says this himself in Redclife if you talk with him about leading an army )

Yes, but there's a distinct difference between the Dalish and City Elves. Loghain has history with the Dalish and still appears to have respect for them (if you play a Dalish and speak to him at Ostagar, he is quite complimentary).
The alienage elves, however, have been cowed into submission by humanity, and during the game are not even allowed to bear arms. As such, they are not going to be as useful as the Dalish. No doubt Howe (whose men put down the elven riots) encouraged Loghain to make use of the alienage elves by selling them, which would not only get rid of the youngest and most troublesome elves, but also bring coin into the empty coffers. The same argument can't really be applied to the Dalish.

[Costin_Razvan]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Actually, in the epilogue text it is mentioned that she had her own urges as well for this, and gave in to them.

This is not what te wikia says and I do not recall anything about the Lady herself not resisting the urge. Only her followers. Two very different things.
Unless you can post the epilogue slide to prove your point.

Then your memory is wrong Knight. 

 Yes, but there's a distinct difference between the Dalish and City Elves. Loghain has history with the Dalish and still appears to have respect for them (if you play a Dalish and speak to him at Ostagar, he is quite complimentary).  

I was under the impression he had used City Elves for the Night Elves in the Stolen Throne? Also Loghain is quite complimentary to anyone who refuses to tell Cailan of their past, but since the Dalish doesn't have a past worth telling then go figure.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 25 août 2010 - 05:48 .

[CalJones]

Ah you could be right, it's a while since I read it. He got shot by a Dalish, though...perhaps that's why he is complimentary, heh. But yes, free range Dalish are likely more useful than battery elves.

[DragonRacer13]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I was under the impression he had used City Elves for the Night Elves in the Stolen Throne? Also Loghain is quite complimentary to anyone who refuses to tell Cailan of their past, but since the Dalish doesn't have a past worth telling then go figure.

I was under the same impression. City elves that had joined the rebellion, rather than the Dalish - who try not to be involved in human affairs to any degree whatsoever.

Woah, wait, what? Loghain has different dialogue towards you at Ostagar if you choose not to tell Cailan how you became a Warden? I'd no idea... He seemed to think I was "very pretty for a Grey Warden", even after I totally junkpunched Cailan by blatantly telling him I murdered an Arl's son for raping my cousin. lol I took it as a compliment, anyway.  And the look on Cailan's face is totally worth telling him my sordid past...

Modifié par DragonRacer13, 25 août 2010 - 07:18 .