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[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Which is smart and pragmatic?  Killing someone to secure your throne?  Your right to rule? 

And the one which has little point, I assume, is killing someone as punishment?

Yes.
It's only useful as to show  that you are punishing someone. But other than the show of force, it has little point.

Interesting.  I have the exact opposite viewpoint from you.

I find killing someone as punishment for their crimes acceptable, and killing someone to prove my right to rule, which boils down (IMO) to make others think better of me, to be quite wrong.

[phaonica]

Obadiah wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Exactly. They would have seen him as weak and naive and easily manipulated, and they would not have believed that he had what it took to protect them from the Orlesian backlash if they sided with him.

...and after what Loghain did to the Warden, they wouldn't see the same of him if he let Loghain live?

Perhaps. But the Landsmeet is right there, and they are not telling you that Loghain must die for you to get their support. You won the duel and they said that they'd follow. If you feel you have to make a further example of him, then so be it, but I didn't find that to be necessary.

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
Interesting.  I have the exact opposite viewpoint from you.

I find killing someone as punishment for their crimes acceptable, and killing someone to prove my right to rule, which boils down (IMO) to make others think better of me, to be quite wrong.

I am not talking about right and wrong. I am talking about what is useful, with material benefits, instrumental if you will. And one that is instrinsic.

Of course you are entitled to believe that one is right and the other wrong.

[Obadiah]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Obadiah wrote...
You don't think they had a pre-arranged signal for retreat? Oh come on...

If they had one, why didn't they have a pre-arranged signal to attack which didn't involve the beacon?

Of course they might have if that Chantry **** didn't open her mouth. But as it is, they had none.

They couldn't have sent a runner down and blown a horn. They could have had some dogs run in with special paint. Loghain could have done SOMETHING, instead he just left.

[Sarah1281]

Obadiah wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Obadiah wrote...
You don't think they had a pre-arranged signal for retreat? Oh come on...

If they had one, why didn't they have a pre-arranged signal to attack which didn't involve the beacon?

Of course they might have if that Chantry **** didn't open her mouth. But as it is, they had none.

They couldn't have sent a runner down and blown a horn. They could have had some dogs run in with special paint. Loghain could have done SOMETHING, instead he just left.

If, for whatever reason, they could not work out a 'this means retreat' signal pre-battle then it would have been pretty useless to make one up during the fight.

[phaonica]

TJPags wrote...

Interesting.  I have the exact opposite viewpoint from you.

I find killing someone as punishment for their crimes acceptable, and killing someone to prove my right to rule, which boils down (IMO) to make others think better of me, to be quite wrong.

Generally, yes, I would find that to be true as well. But Maric is leading a revolution. It's not about his right to rule, it's about his ability to lead the revolution to victory. In the noble's view, if he can't punish someone for their crimes, then he is not strong enough to lead. I don't think that the story of the Orlesian spy redeemed would carry as much confidence as the story of the Orlesian spy thwarted and executed.

Modifié par phaonica, 26 septembre 2010 - 11:01 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Obadiah wrote...
They couldn't have sent a runner down and blown a horn. They could have had some dogs run in with special paint. Loghain could have done SOMETHING, instead he just left.

Possibly alerting the darkspawn of the other army?

Besides, formations would have been broken anyhow and to pull off an organised retreat would have been impossible. Once formations are broken, it's veritably every man for himself. And true enough, many fled Ostagar that way.

[Monica21]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Obadiah wrote...
They couldn't have sent a runner down and blown a horn. They could have had some dogs run in with special paint. Loghain could have done SOMETHING, instead he just left.

Possibly alerting the darkspawn of the other army?

Besides, formations would have been broken anyhow and to pull off an organised retreat would have been impossible. Once formations are broken, it's veritably every man for himself. And true enough, many fled Ostagar that way.

And even if your only intention is to save the King, how on earth could he have been found in all that?

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Interesting.  I have the exact opposite viewpoint from you.

I find killing someone as punishment for their crimes acceptable, and killing someone to prove my right to rule, which boils down (IMO) to make others think better of me, to be quite wrong.

I am not talking about right and wrong. I am talking about what is useful, with material benefits, instrumental if you will. And one that is instrinsic.

Of course you are entitled to believe that one is right and the other wrong.

Fair enough.

[TJPags]

phaonica wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Interesting.  I have the exact opposite viewpoint from you.

I find killing someone as punishment for their crimes acceptable, and killing someone to prove my right to rule, which boils down (IMO) to make others think better of me, to be quite wrong.

Generally, yes, I would find that to be true as well. But Maric is leading a revolution. It's not about his right to rule, it's about his ability to lead the revolution to victory. In the noble's view, if he can't punish someone for their crimes, then he is not strong enough to lead. I don't think that the story of the Orlesian spy redeemed would carry as much confidence as the story of the Orlesian spy thwarted and executed.

Actually, I would think that a leader who can convince an enemy to support him is a better leader than one who simply kills the enemy.  But I do see where nobles would expect that leader to execute an enemy.

[Khylia Morgoth]

That might be so but non the less he is a traitor period, lets not even talk about the desertion. lets talk about what he was doing at the alienage, and that he had his hands dirty by the tourture of a nobles son, as well as the fact that he was the cause of the sickness of Arl Eamon Guerrin.          forget the fact that his deserted the field of battle. sorry but opinon Logain deserves to die at the landsmeet

Modifié par Khylia Morgoth, 26 septembre 2010 - 11:08 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
Actually, I would think that a leader who can convince an enemy to support him is a better leader than one who simply kills the enemy.  But I do see where nobles would expect that leader to execute an enemy.

I agree with your first statement and that is a major reason why I spare Loghain.
But if that enemy managed to manipulate you so easily and she almost cost you everything, you would look like a fool to the nobles if you trust her or if they found out that you were so easily manipulated.

To put it bluntly, Katriel was the last loose end. All evidence of this debacle on the part of Maric must be eliminated. Even if Katriel's regret was genuine, if someone in Orlais found out, they can use that to destabilise Ferelden.

[Sarah1281]

@Khylia Morgoth: Good luck rousing sympathy for Eamon here.

Actually, I would think that a leader who can convince an enemy to support him is a better leader than one who simply kills the enemy. But I do see where nobles would expect that leader to execute an enemy.

But if no one really believed her to have changed (and that the power of love made her do a heel face turn says nothing about Maric's leadership abilities) then having her on his side is more of a detriment than anything as it makes his other allies seriously question him and he can't afford that.

[KnightofPhoenix]

One post here just made my headache worse. Ugh.

Damn you Loghain, why isn't it I am so adamant about defending you when I should be in my bed resting.

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Actually, I would think that a leader who can convince an enemy to support him is a better leader than one who simply kills the enemy.  But I do see where nobles would expect that leader to execute an enemy.

I agree with your first statement and that is a major reason why I spare Loghain.
But if that enemy managed to manipulate you so easily and she almost cost you everything, you would look like a fool to the nobles if you trust her or if they found out that you were so easily manipulated.

To put it bluntly, Katriel was the last loose end. All evidence of this debacle on the part of Maric must be eliminated. Even if Katriel's regret was genuine, if someone in Orlais found out, they can use that to destabilise Ferelden.

Use what?  The fact that she's still alive?  How so?

[Obadiah]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Obadiah wrote...
They couldn't have sent a runner down and blown a horn. They could have had some dogs run in with special paint. Loghain could have done SOMETHING, instead he just left.

Possibly alerting the darkspawn of the other army?

You mean like the one already lit at the tower of Ishal? Yes, signals are like that. If Loghain wanted to retreat he should have sent something, not just quit the field.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Besides, formations would have been broken anyhow and to pull off an organised retreat would have been impossible. Once formations are broken, it's veritably every man for himself. And true enough, many fled Ostagar that way.

Loghain's retreat would have been organized. Yes, everyone else's would have been just to flee, but at least they would know that they were supposed to.

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
Use what?  The fact that she's still alive?  How so?

That she got away with it, yes.
But also use what she did (the fact that MAric is so naive and easily manipulated). I don't think anyone except Maric, Loghain and Rowan knew about what Katried did.
If Katriel is left alive, that secret might end up being divulged. It's a risk letting her go away. 

[Obadiah]

Monica21 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Obadiah wrote...
They couldn't have sent a runner down and blown a horn. They could have had some dogs run in with special paint. Loghain could have done SOMETHING, instead he just left.

Possibly alerting the darkspawn of the other army?

Besides, formations would have been broken anyhow and to pull off an organised retreat would have been impossible. Once formations are broken, it's veritably every man for himself. And true enough, many fled Ostagar that way.

And even if your only intention is to save the King, how on earth could he have been found in all that?

If the battle is truly lost, then at that point, the intention is to sound the retreat foir everyone in the army, not only save the King.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Obadiah wrote...
You mean like the one already lit at the tower of Ishal? Yes, signals are like that. If Loghain wanted to retreat he should have sent something, not just quit the field.

The Beacon signal was on the opposite side of where Loghain was coming from. They could not know where Loghain's army is from just looking at the beacon.
Nothing could have been done.

Loghain's retreat would have been organized. Yes, everyone else's would have been just to flee, but at least they would know that they were supposed to.

Too late. If they can't figure it out by themselves, nothing can be done.
They would know to retreat once they notice that Loghain did not come when the beacon is lit. That is the biggest signal to retreat actually.

[Khylia Morgoth]

even logains lady general (cant rembeber her name) was shocked at the betrayel of Logain's desertion that says something in my book, Lagain is a traitor and he proves it over and over again througout the game, he even takes howel under his arm as an advisor and allows his own daughter to be imperissoned by howel. i dont see how Logain can be defended giggles

[Monica21]

Just because I feel like it, Loghain and Wynne at Ostagar:

Loghain: You can stop scowling at me, madam.

Wynne: Did I need your permission? I see.

Loghain: Fine. I confess: It was entirely my idea that Uldred consort with demons. I had a dastardly scheme in which the utter destruction of Ferelden's best weapon would benefit me, personally.

Loghain: Are you satisfied now?

Wynne: Do you think your deal with Uldred was where you earned my contempt? I was at Ostagar. I witnessed Cailan's murder.

Loghain: Such loyalty.

Wynne: What is that supposed to mean?

Loghain: Did you try to save him, then? My apologies.

Wynne: I was fortunate to escape with my life!

Loghain: So you didn't rush to your king's rescue? I see. Then both of us left the boy to die.

Wynne: I was no general at the head of an army! I could never have reached him!

Loghain: And I had no magic that could break those darkspawn ranks. But perhaps you think I ought to have tried, regardless. No doubt, the lives of mere soldiers are cheap in the eyes of the Circle.

Wynne: And what of all the soldiers who died with their king? Their lives were worth nothing to you.

Loghain: You think so, do you? I knew their names, mage, and where they came from. I knew their families.

Loghain: I do not know how you mages determine the value of things, but they were my men. I know exactly how much I lost that day.

Modifié par Monica21, 26 septembre 2010 - 11:26 .

[Monica21]

Khylia Morgoth wrote...

even logains lady general (cant rembeber her name) was shocked at the betrayel of Logain's desertion that says something in my book, Lagain is a traitor and he proves it over and over again througout the game, he even takes howel under his arm as an advisor and allows his own daughter to be imperissoned by howel. i dont see how Logain can be defended giggles

Yeah, I think that was brought up like, one page ago. Can you not at least go back that far?

What she said was "What about the king?" and not "You traitor!" Big difference.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Monica21 wrote...
Wynne: And what of all the soldiers who died with their king? Their lives were worth nothing to you.

Loghain: You think so, do you? I knew their names, mage, and where they came from. I knew their families.

Loghain: I do not know how you mages determine the value of things, but they were my men. I know exactly how much I lost that day.

His deliver of those lines was very powerful (everyhting that Loghain says is pretty powerful).
Knowing Loghain's character, I believe that there is no way he would let *his* men die when he could have saved them.

Maybe I am just naive, but I believe what he said here.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 septembre 2010 - 11:26 .

[Monica21]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
Wynne: And what of all the soldiers who died with their king? Their lives were worth nothing to you.

Loghain: You think so, do you? I knew their names, mage, and where they came from. I knew their families.

Loghain: I do not know how you mages determine the value of things, but they were my men. I know exactly how much I lost that day.

His deliver of those lines was very powerful (everyhting that Loghain says is pretty powerful).
Knowing Loghain's character, I believe that there is no way he would let *his* men die when he could have saved them.

Maybe I am just naive, but I believe what he said here.

The retreat scene itself is powerful. "Sound the retreat" is said with an enormous amount of regret. His reaction to Cauthrien is angry, possibly more at himself for feeling helpless. Then the look on his face after she turns away is not villiany and not pleasure, but very deep sadness.

[Khylia Morgoth]

that was only a small reply of my post and im stateing my opinion is all like everone else, and your right she didnt say you traitor but that does not make it less so he betrayed the king in my eyes and alot of others as well.