12857 réponses à ce sujet

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

One post here just made my headache worse. Ugh.
Damn you Loghain, why isn't it I am so adamant about defending you when I should be in my bed resting.

BECAUSE YOU DO AS HE COMMANDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Monica21]

Khylia Morgoth wrote...

that was only a small reply of my post and im stateing my opinion is all like everone else, and your right she didnt say you traitor but that does not make it less so he betrayed the king in my eyes and alot of others as well.

Well, in my eyes and a lot of others he didn't.

[DragonRacer13]

Holy moly, it's like watching the same exact train wreck over and over and over and...

[KnightofPhoenix]

Monica21 wrote...
The retreat scene itself is powerful. "Sound the retreat" is said with an enormous amount of regret. His reaction to Cauthrien is angry, possibly more at himself for feeling helpless. Then the look on his face after she turns away is not villiany and not pleasure, but very deep sadness.

It is quite interesting how people interpret things very differently.

http://fc05.devianta...by_Rinkara.png.

Apparently the author thinks that Loghain looks sinister in this shot. But all I see is a man who feels heavy. Almost helpless.

Especially in this shot here



It seems to me that he can't take his eyes of the beacon. It's as if he is leaving a part of himself down there.
He even said it at the Landsmeet. That it's as if Ostagar happened to someone else.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 septembre 2010 - 11:38 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

One post here just made my headache worse. Ugh.
Damn you Loghain, why isn't it I am so adamant about defending you when I should be in my bed resting.

BECAUSE YOU DO AS HE COMMANDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How can you say no to this face?

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

It is interesting how differently a scene or snapshot can be interepreted.



When I see him looking at that beacon, it's almost like he's giving a big "F-U" to Cailan and his fool plans, and the Wardens.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

How can you say no to this face?

Ok, you win.

[Monica21]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Apparently the author thinks that Loghain looks sinister in this shot. But all I see is a man who feels heavy. Almost helpless.

Yes, he looks terribly burdened. I can't help but think that he's cursing Cailan for being foolish and naive, but begging forgiveness from him, Maric, and especially Rowan at the same time. Not to mention everyone else he knows he'll lose.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
When I see him looking at that beacon, it's almost like he's giving a big "F-U" to Cailan and his fool plans, and the Wardens.

I don't think he is that juvenile. I believe that Loghain never wanted Cailan to die and he only was somewhat pleased of his death in RtO.

[phaonica]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Damn you Loghain, why isn't it I am so adamant about defending you when I should be in my bed resting.

You should go lay down.

[KnightofPhoenix]

phaonica wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Damn you Loghain, why isn't it I am so adamant about defending you when I should be in my bed resting.

You should go lay down.

I can't.
My body is dying but my brain is hyperactive for some reason.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
When I see him looking at that beacon, it's almost like he's giving a big "F-U" to Cailan and his fool plans, and the Wardens.

I don't think he is that juvenile. I believe that Loghain never wanted Cailan to die and he only was somewhat pleased of his death in RtO.

He might, if he really knew of Cailan's plans to marry Celene. In Return to Ostagar, he sounds like he suspected something, but never knew fully for sure, and seemed more surprised at calian possibly marrying celene, than he seemed at Anora being divorced.

We don't know for certain exactly how much Loghain knew prior to ostagar.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
We don't know for certain exactly how much Loghain knew prior to ostagar.

Yes, that's my point. I don't think he wanted Cailan to die because he didn't know what Cailan was up to. Had he known, he would have probably assassinated or incapacitated him way before Ostagar.

[Obadiah]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
The Beacon signal was on the opposite side of where Loghain was coming from. They could not know where Loghain's army is from just looking at the beacon.
Nothing could have been done.

Just because nothing was done, doesn't mean nothing could have been done. There was no reason Loghain couldn't have sent someone to approach from the other side, or had a mage start a storm an another location, to give a whatever the standard signal was for retreat. Instead Loghain quit the field when he wasn't supposed to, didn't let anyone else know, and left them to die. That was wrong.

Then he tried to blame the whole thing on the Grey Wardens. That was wrong.

When the Bann's didn't believe his version of the story he tried to force them. That was wrong.

When the Warden wouldn't just die and started finding allies, Loghain sacrificed the civilian population, people he was supposedly trying to protect, to try to bolster his arms. That was wrong.

And Loghain knew he was wrong once he was finally beaten at the Landsmeet.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Loghain's retreat would have been organized. Yes, everyone else's would have been just to flee, but at least they would know that they were supposed to.

Too late. If they can't figure it out by themselves, nothing can be done.
They would know to retreat once they notice that Loghain did not come when the beacon is lit. That is the biggest signal to retreat actually.

Loghain's allies were charging the survivors with desertion, actively kidnapping and torturing them, and killing them off. Clearly his plan was to have everyone in the King's army dead.

[DragonRacer13]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

phaonica wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Damn you Loghain, why isn't it I am so adamant about defending you when I should be in my bed resting.

You should go lay down.

I can't.
My body is dying but my brain is hyperactive for some reason.

Then take a book to bed.

[Elhanan]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

phaonica wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Damn you Loghain, why isn't it I am so adamant about defending you when I should be in my bed resting.

You should go lay down.

I can't.
My body is dying but my brain is hyperactive for some reason.

Might be associated guilt over leaving Cailan to die....

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yes, that's my point. I don't think he wanted Cailan to die because he didn't know what Cailan was up to. Had he known, he would have probably assassinated or incapacitated him way before Ostagar.

I think he did. Both attendants outside their respective lord's tents mention him and the king arguing over the queen. I think a part of him was acting out of the guise of protective father. Divorcing one's wife in such societies was one of the most publically humiliating and degrading things you could do to a woman. I don't think it was his only reason, but I think it had far more influence over his descision.

[Monica21]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yes, that's my point. I don't think he wanted Cailan to die because he didn't know what Cailan was up to. Had he known, he would have probably assassinated or incapacitated him way before Ostagar.

I think he did. Both attendants outside their respective lord's tents mention him and the king arguing over the queen. I think a part of him was acting out of the guise of protective father. Divorcing one's wife in such societies was one of the most publically humiliating and degrading things you could do to a woman. I don't think it was his only reason, but I think it had far more influence over his descision.

If he did know, then the letters at Ostagar shouldn't have been such a surprise. They may have been arguing over Anora, but we don't know about what. The letters gave him proof.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Monica21 wrote...

If he did know, then the letters at Ostagar shouldn't have been such a surprise. They may have been arguing over Anora, but we don't know about what. The letters gave him proof.

The letters weren't such a big suprise in the setting aside of Anora. Loghain's comments led me to believe he had already heard of or known about that. The part that surprised and enraged him was the possible marriage to celene. That part seemed to throw him for a loop.

[TJPags]

Monica21 wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yes, that's my point. I don't think he wanted Cailan to die because he didn't know what Cailan was up to. Had he known, he would have probably assassinated or incapacitated him way before Ostagar.

I think he did. Both attendants outside their respective lord's tents mention him and the king arguing over the queen. I think a part of him was acting out of the guise of protective father. Divorcing one's wife in such societies was one of the most publically humiliating and degrading things you could do to a woman. I don't think it was his only reason, but I think it had far more influence over his descision.

If he did know, then the letters at Ostagar shouldn't have been such a surprise. They may have been arguing over Anora, but we don't know about what. The letters gave him proof.

Lingering discrepancies from the deleted Celene in Denerim plot, perhaps.  Because really, the arguing about the Queen issue and Loghain's surprise during RtO don't seem to link right.

[Monica21]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

If he did know, then the letters at Ostagar shouldn't have been such a surprise. They may have been arguing over Anora, but we don't know about what. The letters gave him proof.

The letters weren't such a big suprise in the setting aside of Anora. Loghain's comments led me to believe he had already heard of or known about that. The part that surprised and enraged him was the possible marriage to celene. That part seemed to throw him for a loop.

Yes, you may be right. I'd have to listen to it again.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Obadiah wrote...
Just because nothing was done, doesn't mean nothing could have been done. There was no reason Loghain couldn't have sent someone to approach from the other side, or had a mage start a storm an another location, to give a whatever the standard signal was for retreat. Instead Loghain quit the field when he wasn't supposed to, didn't let anyone else know, and left them to die. That was wrong.

He couldn't use mages, the Chantry **** didn't want that.
When an army is broken, having a guy signal is not going to work. sIgnals are used for cohesive armies in formation, not individuals. In the thick of battle, you can't see or hear a signal.

Obadiah wrote...
Then he tried to blame the whole thing on the Grey Wardens. That was wrong.

Practical. He needed scapegoats and he believed Wardens were actively engaged with Orlais.

Obadiah wrote...
When the Bann's didn't believe his version of the story he tried to force them. That was wrong.

The majority of the Landmseet did. A few self-aggrandising banns didn't and that's not the reason why they rebelled. They rebelled because that's what they do. They fight amongst each other for trees and when they see Denerim tryign to excersize authority, they unite and act like the collective fools that they are.
Like Master Ignasio said: "the civil war brought many gold grudges to a boil". It had little to do with Ostagar.

Yes, Loghain didn't play it smart. I don't see that as "wrong" however.

Obadiah wrote...
When the Warden wouldn't just die and started finding allies, Loghain sacrificed the civilian population, people he was supposedly trying to protect, to try to bolster his arms. That was wrong.

I don't see how this is relevent to this particular discussion about Ostagar.
Sacrificed a small barely recognised minority to save the whole. Acceptable in my books. And the Landmseet can think it acceptable too.

Obadiah wrote...
And Loghain knew he was wrong once he was finally beaten at the Landsmeet.

He knew he wasn't the one to save Ferelden. But in RtO, he doesn't regret anything. And he shouldn't.

Loghain's allies were charging the survivors with desertion, actively kidnapping and torturing them, and killing them off. Clearly his plan was to have everyone in the King's army dead.

No, they were hunting down those who couldn't keep their mouthes shut.
The noble in Howe's estate was caught because someone from Loghain's side of the army decided it was smart to open his mouth.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 27 septembre 2010 - 12:06 .

[Monica21]

TJPags wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yes, that's my point. I don't think he wanted Cailan to die because he didn't know what Cailan was up to. Had he known, he would have probably assassinated or incapacitated him way before Ostagar.

I think he did. Both attendants outside their respective lord's tents mention him and the king arguing over the queen. I think a part of him was acting out of the guise of protective father. Divorcing one's wife in such societies was one of the most publically humiliating and degrading things you could do to a woman. I don't think it was his only reason, but I think it had far more influence over his descision.

If he did know, then the letters at Ostagar shouldn't have been such a surprise. They may have been arguing over Anora, but we don't know about what. The letters gave him proof.

Lingering discrepancies from the deleted Celene in Denerim plot, perhaps.  Because really, the arguing about the Queen issue and Loghain's surprise during RtO don't seem to link right.

Very possible too. Wynne does say something about how much Cailan loved Anora, but I'm not sure how much of her word I'm willing to take on that.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
I think he did. Both attendants outside their respective lord's tents mention him and the king arguing over the queen. I think a part of him was acting out of the guise of protective father. Divorcing one's wife in such societies was one of the most publically humiliating and degrading things you could do to a woman. I don't think it was his only reason, but I think it had far more influence over his descision.

He didn't know. Loghain and Cailan argued all the time.

Was Loghain really planign to kill Cailan because Cailan wanted to divorce Anora to produce an heir? No, Loghain would probably tell him to do that once it became apparent that he can't get an heir with Anora.
And if he wanted to do that, he wouldn't have waited until Ostagar.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 27 septembre 2010 - 12:05 .

[DragonRacer13]

Monica21 wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yes, that's my point. I don't think he wanted Cailan to die because he didn't know what Cailan was up to. Had he known, he would have probably assassinated or incapacitated him way before Ostagar.

I think he did. Both attendants outside their respective lord's tents mention him and the king arguing over the queen. I think a part of him was acting out of the guise of protective father. Divorcing one's wife in such societies was one of the most publically humiliating and degrading things you could do to a woman. I don't think it was his only reason, but I think it had far more influence over his descision.

If he did know, then the letters at Ostagar shouldn't have been such a surprise. They may have been arguing over Anora, but we don't know about what. The letters gave him proof.

I always assumed they were arguing over Anora because of the failure of an heir being produced. Thought I had overheard something about that during my first or second Ostagar playthrough.

Then again, that could totally be wrong. The idea of that particular argument seems... creepy. Um, and actually makes me think of my own in-laws inquiring as to when their son and I will be producing granchildren for them.