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[Obadiah]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
No, they were hunting down those who couldn't keep their mouthes shut.
The noble in Howe's estate was caught because someone from Loghain's side of the army decided it was smart to open his mouth.

This is a reason to be tortured? If Loghain was in the right, he wouldn't be trying to hide what happened at Ostagar. He was wrong.

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Obadiah wrote...
Just because nothing was done, doesn't mean nothing could have been done. There was no reason Loghain couldn't have sent someone to approach from the other side, or had a mage start a storm an another location, to give a whatever the standard signal was for retreat. Instead Loghain quit the field when he wasn't supposed to, didn't let anyone else know, and left them to die. That was wrong.

He couldn't use mages, the Chantry **** didn't want that.
When an army is broken, having a guy signal is not going to work. sIgnals are used for cohesive armies in formation, not individuals. In the thick of battle, you can't see a signal, as the majority  probably won't see or hear it.

Obadiah wrote...
Then he tried to blame the whole thing on the Grey Wardens. That was wrong.

Practical. He needed scapegoats and he believed Wardens were actively engaged with Orlais.

Obadiah wrote...
When the Bann's didn't believe his version of the story he tried to force them. That was wrong.

The majority of the Landmseet did. A few self-aggrandising banns didn't and that's not the reason why they rebelled. They rebelled because that's what they do. They fight amongst each other for trees and when they see Denerim tryign to excersize authority, they untie and act like the collective fools taht they are.
Like Master Ig****o said: "the civil war braught many gold grudges to a boil". It had little to do with Ostagar.

Yes, Loghain didn't play it smart. I don't see that as "wrong" however.

Obadiah wrote...
When the Warden wouldn't just die and started finding allies, Loghain sacrificed the civilian population, people he was supposedly trying to protect, to try to bolster his arms. That was wrong.

I don't see how this is relevent to this particular discussion about Ostagar.
Sacrificed a small barely recognised minority to save the whole. Acceptable in my books. And the Landmseet can think it acceptable too.

Obadiah wrote...
And Loghain knew he was wrong once he was finally beaten at the Landsmeet.

He knew he wasn't the one to save Ferelden. But in RtO, he doesn't regret anything. And he shouldn't.

Loghain's allies were charging the survivors with desertion, actively kidnapping and torturing them, and killing them off. Clearly his plan was to have everyone in the King's army dead.

No, they were hunting down those who couldn't keep their mouthes shut.
The noble in Howe's estate was caught because someone from Loghain's side of the army decided it was smart to open his mouth.

2 questions:
 
1)  what keeps getting starred out?  Frankly, I don't know who you're referring to.
2) what couldn't they keep their mouths shut about, and why was it such a problem that they needed to be hunted down and killed?

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
I think he did. Both attendants outside their respective lord's tents mention him and the king arguing over the queen. I think a part of him was acting out of the guise of protective father. Divorcing one's wife in such societies was one of the most publically humiliating and degrading things you could do to a woman. I don't think it was his only reason, but I think it had far more influence over his descision.

He didn't know. Loghain and Cailan argued all the time.

Was Loghain really planign to kill Cailan because Cailan wanted to divorce Anora to produce an heir? No, Loghain would probably tell him to do that once it became apparent that he can't get an heir with Anora.
And if he wanted to do that, he wouldn't have waited until Ostagar.

But it's odd that they're arguing over the Queen if Loghain knew nothing about Caillan's plans. 

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

What the hell would Wynne know of politics and royal relationships? She was a circle mage. They are cut off from most of society. She's only expressing an opinion based of whatever Ferelden has for Tabloids.



Though I think originally, Cailain did love Anora. Eamon's letter mentioned that Cailan parted on bad terms with him when he originally suggested ditching Anora for someone else. That letter was crumpled. It's open to speculation whether or not Cailan, Loghain, or even Anora were the ones doing the crumpling. Given we have Lord Gaider himself confirming that Celene and Cailan were planning on a wedding, it seems less likely it was Cailan. Which leaves Loghain or Anora.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Obadiah wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
No, they were hunting down those who couldn't keep their mouthes shut.
The noble in Howe's estate was caught because someone from Loghain's side of the army decided it was smart to open his mouth.

This is a reason to be tortured? If Loghain was in the right, he wouldn't be trying to hide what happened at Ostagar. He was wrong.

Yes.
What he did could be used against him by opportunists who know nothing of war.

You can say "wrong" all you want. But that's now how discussions are made unless someone manages to find a universally applicalbe law of "wrongness" that we can start with as a common premise. Until then, we are discussing subjective opinions and it's going to move back and forth.

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
2 questions:
 
1)  what keeps getting starred out?  Frankly, I don't know who you're referring to.

...I don't know what you're referring to either.
I am sorry, it's hard to concentrate. Can you elaborate?

TJPags wrote...
2) what couldn't they keep their mouths shut about, and why was it such a problem that they needed to be hunted down and killed?

Because what Loghain did can be used by opportunists, as a punch line.
It happens all the time. You do something that is sound and logical, but someone manages to use that against you, when he doesn't know what he is talking about.
That's a large part of politics. Generals like Thucydides get demoted by politicians who don't understand what they are talking about, because Thucydides couldn't win like he "should" have.

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
But it's odd that they're arguing over the Queen if Loghain knew nothing about Caillan's plans. 

Cailan had mistresses, it's known.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Though I think originally, Cailain did love Anora. Eamon's letter mentioned that Cailan parted on bad terms with him when he originally suggested ditching Anora for someone else. That letter was crumpled. It's open to speculation whether or not Cailan, Loghain, or even Anora were the ones doing the crumpling. Given we have Lord Gaider himself confirming that Celene and Cailan were planning on a wedding, it seems less likely it was Cailan. Which leaves Loghain or Anora.

EDIT: crumpled, then restored carefully.

Probably Anora then.
I don't see Loghain not dealing with Cailan here and there. He obviously was surprised in RtO.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 27 septembre 2010 - 12:15 .

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
2 questions:
 
1)  what keeps getting starred out?  Frankly, I don't know who you're referring to.

...I don't know what you're referring to either.
I am sorry, it's hard to concentrate. Can you elaborate?

Some of your last few posts have referred to the "Chantry *****" who wouldn't let Loghain use mages.  Who is that, exactly?

TJPags wrote...
2) what couldn't they keep their mouths shut about, and why was it such a problem that they needed to be hunted down and killed?

Because what Loghain did can be used by opportunists, as a punch line.
It happens all the time. You do something that is sound and logical, but someone manages to use that against you, when he doesn't know what he is talking about.
That's a large part of politics. Generals like Thucydides get demoted by politicians who don't understand what they are talking about, because Thucydides couldn't win like he "should" have.

So, Loghain didn't want to answer questions about what he did from anyone?  To me, that's not the sign of someone who knows he did the right thing.  Those people are usually willing to defend what they did, and explain why.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

He didn't know. Loghain and Cailan argued all the time.

Was Loghain really planign to kill Cailan because Cailan wanted to divorce Anora to produce an heir? No, Loghain would probably tell him to do that once it became apparent that he can't get an heir with Anora.
And if he wanted to do that, he wouldn't have waited until Ostagar.

They were arguing about the queen. In Ostagar. Where there was a darkspawn horde, and the king had all sorts of idiot ideas about glory and riding at the front with the Wardens. I would think that if his opposition to Cailan's plans was bugging him the most, that would be the center ond notice of their arguements.

But instead, they have been arguing over the queen, many miles away in Denerim. Both aides confirm this. In terms of the game, the developers did not just pop that in out of the blue. Given the deleted Celene plot and a few loose ends left untied in terms of it, whatever they were arguing about, concerning the queen, was signifigant in terms of the game. Even if later it was dropped.

And I do not believe that Loghain would have encouraged cailan to drop Anora. Quite the opposite. He knew the king was a fool, that Anora was the real leader, the only one keeping the king from doinging anything overtly stupid. She is also his daughter. I think that Loghain is not pragmatic and detached enough that his daughter's happieness and well being could be so easily overlooked.

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
But it's odd that they're arguing over the Queen if Loghain knew nothing about Caillan's plans. 

Cailan had mistresses, it's known.

Anora knew- we find that out when speaking to her at Denerim.

Who else knew?  Was it common knowledge?  I don't see that as the kind of thing women discuss with daddy - not being a woman, I'm willing to be corrected here.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

EDIT: crumpled, then restored carefully.

Probably Anora then.
I don't see Loghain not dealing with Cailan here and there. He obviously was surprised in RtO.

Could be either. But he only really seemed surprised at Cailan marrying Celene. Not at Cailan dumping Anora for another queen. So I think he knew at least half of the equation.

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
Some of your last few posts have referred to the "Chantry *****" who wouldn't let Loghain use mages.  Who is that, exactly?

The reverred mother who told Uldred to shut up when he proposed using his powers instead of the signal.

So, Loghain didn't want to answer questions about what he did from anyone?  To me, that's not the sign of someone who knows he did the right thing.  Those people are usually willing to defend what they did, and explain why.

When it can be used against you? No, that's not a sound thing to do.
In war, the last thing you want is others doubting you. Which happened anyways, but allowing them to speak their mind is dangerous.
Thucydides explained why and he was evicted for purely political reasons.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Could be either. But he only really seemed surprised at Cailan marrying Celene. Not at Cailan dumping Anora for another queen. So I think he knew at least half of the equation.

Which excludes him knowing about the letter, as it was this letter that made Loghain believe that Cailan was planing to marry Celene.

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
Anora knew- we find that out when speaking to her at Denerim.

Who else knew?  Was it common knowledge?  I don't see that as the kind of thing women discuss with daddy - not being a woman, I'm willing to be corrected here.

Cailan being the idiot that he is probably wasn't subtle.
So yea Loghain probably did know.

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Some of your last few posts have referred to the "Chantry *****" who wouldn't let Loghain use mages.  Who is that, exactly?

The reverred mother who told Uldred to shut up when he proposed using his powers instead of the signal.

So, Loghain didn't want to answer questions about what he did from anyone?  To me, that's not the sign of someone who knows he did the right thing.  Those people are usually willing to defend what they did, and explain why.

When it can be used against you? No, that's not a sound thing to do.
In war, the last thing you want is others doubting you. Which happened anyways, but allowing them to speak their mind is dangerous.
Thucydides explained why and he was evicted for purely political reasons.

1) I took the Chantry's objection to using his poers to light the beacon, not using the mages in battle.  I didn't get the sense the mages were being kept from the battle, else why were they there?

2)  Seems something else we'll have to agree to disagree on.  To me, covering up your actions is an indication that what you did was wrong - in fact, that's used in criminal trials as evidence of wrongdoing all the time, even when it isn't a crime in and of itself.  It's also used in civil trials.  Now, how much weight to give that is up to debate, I grant.  But it sits poorly with me that Loghain felt he needed to kill people who wouldn't "keep their mouths shut" about what he did, for fear of someone questioning it. 

Had he been more open, it may have all been over and done and judged acceptable.  That's certainly possible.  But it looks bad that he wanted to hide his actions, and keep them from open debate.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
I think that Loghain is not pragmatic and detached enough that his daughter's happieness and well being could be so easily overlooked.

But he wouldn't let his men die for her.
I can't see him doing that at all. Taht was the original plan and I would have lost a lot of respect towards him. But in the game we have now, I very much doubt that he did all this just for Anora's sake.

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Anora knew- we find that out when speaking to her at Denerim.

Who else knew?  Was it common knowledge?  I don't see that as the kind of thing women discuss with daddy - not being a woman, I'm willing to be corrected here.

Cailan being the idiot that he is probably wasn't subtle.
So yea Loghain probably did know.

Then there should have been rumors all over the place.  Others should have mentioned it.

While you may be right, it's pure speculation.  Hell, Anora could have been lying, or exagerating.

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
1) I took the Chantry's objection to using his poers to light the beacon, not using the mages in battle.  I didn't get the sense the mages were being kept from the battle, else why were they there?

I didn't say they prevented mages from battle. But it was clear they were restricted. Loghain couldn't use them to their fullest potential.
The mother was clear that she didnt' want to entrust her fate to a mage.

TJPags wrote...
Had he been more open, it may have all been over and done and judged acceptable.  That's certainly possible.  But it looks bad that he wanted to hide his actions, and keep them from open debate.

That's only valid in a civil rational society marked by the Rule of Law.
Taht's not what ferelden is. IT's a fragile country with weak foundations that can collapse at any moment.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Which excludes him knowing about the letter, as it was this letter that made Loghain believe that Cailan was planing to marry Celene.

It wasn't that letter, it was the third letter, where Cailan and Celene are adressing each other rather intimately, that makes him realize Cailan's plans. Again, I say he probably didn't know it to be Celene, but knew Cailan was considering dumping Anora.

It was the Eamon letter thst was crumpled, if I remember correctly, which makes no mention of Celene, just telling Cailan to get rid of Anora. I think it possible Anora crumpled it. And thus, I do not think she would keep such a tidbit from her father, would she? He is, after all, the person she trusts so much, and given this is a very real and personal crisis, I can't think of anyone else who she would have ran to first.

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
I think that Loghain is not pragmatic and detached enough that his daughter's happieness and well being could be so easily overlooked.

But he wouldn't let his men die for her.
I can't see him doing that at all. Taht was the original plan and I would have lost a lot of respect towards him. But in the game we have now, I very much doubt that he did all this just for Anora's sake.

But he fought the bannorn and tried to strong arm all the nobility at least partially - if not completely - to keep her on the throne, so I'm not sure your first sentence can be entirely accurate.

[Persephone]

Monica21 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
Wynne: And what of all the soldiers who died with their king? Their lives were worth nothing to you.

Loghain: You think so, do you? I knew their names, mage, and where they came from. I knew their families.

Loghain: I do not know how you mages determine the value of things, but they were my men. I know exactly how much I lost that day.

His deliver of those lines was very powerful (everyhting that Loghain says is pretty powerful).
Knowing Loghain's character, I believe that there is no way he would let *his* men die when he could have saved them.

Maybe I am just naive, but I believe what he said here.

The retreat scene itself is powerful. "Sound the retreat" is said with an enormous amount of regret. His reaction to Cauthrien is angry, possibly more at himself for feeling helpless. Then the look on his face after she turns away is not villiany and not pleasure, but very deep sadness.

Some people see a smile and/or glee in that expression. I do not. If one wants evil played as pure evil, Tim Curry is your man. Loghain surely did not enjoy Ostagar one bit.

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
Then there should have been rumors all over the place.  Others should have mentioned it.

While you may be right, it's pure speculation.  Hell, Anora could have been lying, or exagerating.

It doens't have to get outside Cailan's immediate entourage, he isn't that much of an idiot.
I don't think Anora is lying.

The reality is that this is a vestige of the original concept that doesnt' fit the game anymore.
Loghain could not have known what Cailan was planing.
So maybe Cailan talked to Loghain about him marrying or not havign an heir. It could be anything. Except Loghain knowing about the letters.

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
1) I took the Chantry's objection to using his poers to light the beacon, not using the mages in battle.  I didn't get the sense the mages were being kept from the battle, else why were they there?

I didn't say they prevented mages from battle. But it was clear they were restricted. Loghain couldn't use them to their fullest potential.
The mother was clear that she didnt' want to entrust her fate to a mage.

TJPags wrote...
Had he been more open, it may have all been over and done and judged acceptable.  That's certainly possible.  But it looks bad that he wanted to hide his actions, and keep them from open debate.

That's only valid in a civil rational society marked by the Rule of Law.
Taht's not what ferelden is. IT's a fragile country with weak foundations that can collapse at any moment.

Re: the mages - okay, that makes sense.

Re: the coverup-  I think even someone in feudal Europe would question the need for a coverup.  And it's not just in legal circles.  If you found out your kids were covering up something they did, wouldn't you question why?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
It was the Eamon letter thst was crumpled, if I remember correctly, which makes no mention of Celene, just telling Cailan to get rid of Anora

No, it's the third letter with Celene that got crumpled.