12857 réponses à ce sujet

[Monica21]

TJPags wrote...
Then there should have been rumors all over the place.  Others should have mentioned it.

While you may be right, it's pure speculation.  Hell, Anora could have been lying, or exagerating.

Well, when you find out Anora's telling you because you're in a relationship with Alistair. She wants to know if it's going to continue so she knows what to expect. I didn't get the impression that it was common knowledge, especially since she has no reason to lie at that point. And she does say that Cailan tried to be discreet.

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Then there should have been rumors all over the place.  Others should have mentioned it.

While you may be right, it's pure speculation.  Hell, Anora could have been lying, or exagerating.

It doens't have to get outside Cailan's immediate entourage, he isn't that much of an idiot.
I don't think Anora is lying.

The reality is that this is a vestige of the original concept that doesnt' fit the game anymore.
Loghain could not have known what Cailan was planing.
So maybe Cailan talked to Loghain about him marrying or not havign an heir. It could be anything. Except Loghain knowing about the letters.

It very likely is a vestige of that deleted Celene in Denerim plot.  Because frankly, it makes NO sense otherwise, except to toss questions about Loghain's motives.

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
Re: the coverup-  I think even someone in feudal Europe would question the need for a coverup.  And it's not just in legal circles.  If you found out your kids were covering up something they did, wouldn't you question why?

A bad example. As a father, I would be responsable to know what my children did.
But I am going to play along with it. Suppose that my kid got into a fight where he was entirely right, and hid it from me because he feared that I would unjustly punish him. Then I wouldn't be mad at him. I'd tell him not to lie to me next time.

But him revealign that is not going to cause civil war in the family and the entire thing collpasing on our heads.

[Sarah1281]

1) I took the Chantry's objection to using his poers to light the beacon, not using the mages in battle. I didn't get the sense the mages were being kept from the battle, else why were they there?

She wasn't happy that the (seven!) mages were there anyway. And the mages retreated before Loghain did so that's no help.

It was the Eamon letter thst was crumpled, if I remember correctly, which makes no mention of Celene, just telling Cailan to get rid of Anora. I think it possible Anora crumpled it. And thus, I do not think she would keep such a tidbit from her father, would she? He is, after all, the person she trusts so much, and given this is a very real and personal crisis, I can't think of anyone else who she would have ran to first.

I highly doubt Anora would be so foolish as to crumple Eamon's letter and then replace it and hope Cailan didn't realize she was going through his mail.



@Knight: Are you aware Morrigan's under attack in the Alistair thread?

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
But he fought the bannorn and tried to strong arm all the nobility at least partially - if not completely - to keep her on the throne, so I'm not sure your first sentence can be entirely accurate.

To unite Ferelden under her. Difference. Besides, he basically took power from her anyways.
I think Ferelden was his priority here, not Anora.

[TJPags]

Monica21 wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Then there should have been rumors all over the place.  Others should have mentioned it.

While you may be right, it's pure speculation.  Hell, Anora could have been lying, or exagerating.

Well, when you find out Anora's telling you because you're in a relationship with Alistair. She wants to know if it's going to continue so she knows what to expect. I didn't get the impression that it was common knowledge, especially since she has no reason to lie at that point. And she does say that Cailan tried to be discreet.

Agreed, which leads me to question why Loghain would have known about it . . .and of course, why he'd have chosen that time to fight about it.

I think we have to chalk that up as something left over from the Celene plot, which should have been deleted/edited/corrected, but wasn't.  Otherwise, that fight and his apparent surprise in RtO (and yes, I do think he was surprised there - and angered) makes no sense at all.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
It was the Eamon letter thst was crumpled, if I remember correctly, which makes no mention of Celene, just telling Cailan to get rid of Anora

No, it's the third letter with Celene that got crumpled.

Is it? I remember one of them got crumpled, I always thought it the second.

If that was the case, and that was the letter Anora saw, then I couldn't see how Loghain could not know the whole deal. While I can see Anora staying quiet about Cailan's lower mistresses and casual thing, I can't see her keeping from her father that her husband was screwing around with the empress of their former oppressors. Something like that, even Anora would know, comprimises Ferelden's well being.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...
@Knight: Are you aware Morrigan's under attack in the Alistair thread?

Out of female jealousy. Couldn't care less.

Besides, Morrigan doing the DR with Alistair never happened. 

[Sarah1281]

Something like that, even Anora would know, comprimises Ferelden's well being.

Something EVEN Anora would know? She's hardly so incompetent or blindly trusting that it'd be an 'even' Anora would know this.

[Obadiah]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
No, they were hunting down those who couldn't keep their mouthes shut.
The noble in Howe's estate was caught because someone from Loghain's side of the army decided it was smart to open his mouth.

This is a reason to be tortured? If Loghain was in the right, he wouldn't be trying to hide what happened at Ostagar. He was wrong.

Yes.
What he did could be used against him by opportunists who know nothing of war.

You can say "wrong" all you want. But that's now how discussions are made unless someone manages to find a universally applicalbe law of "wrongness" that we can start with as a common premise. Until then, we are discussing subjective opinions and it's going to move back and forth.

No.

The furtherance of winning does not make an act a good idea. Loghain chose to undertake a series of ruthless and brutal acts which if they came to light would violate the conscience of the average person.  If there is a univeral law of right and wrong then that is the first sign that he has violated it. His acts call into question any trust that his allies would have him.

For me, Loghain's acts violated my basic rule of treating others as I want to be treated - that's how I know hat he did was wrong.

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
But he fought the bannorn and tried to strong arm all the nobility at least partially - if not completely - to keep her on the throne, so I'm not sure your first sentence can be entirely accurate.

To unite Ferelden under her. Difference. Besides, he basically took power from her anyways.
I think Ferelden was his priority here, not Anora.

I don't see much difference between keeping her on the throne and uniting Ferelden under her, personally.

And yes, he did basically take power from her.  Makes the whole first point somewhat moot, at the end.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Is it? I remember one of them got crumpled, I always thought it the second.

If that was the case, and that was the letter Anora saw, then I couldn't see how Loghain could not know the whole deal. While I can see Anora staying quiet about Cailan's lower mistresses and casual thing, I can't see her keeping from her father that her husband was screwing around with the empress of their former oppressors. Something like that, even Anora would know, comprimises Ferelden's well being.

Definately the third.
http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex_Entry:_Cailan's_Documents_-_Page_3_of_3

Like I said before, this is a vestige of the original concept and it makes little sense here.

I don't see Anora doing it either. And Loghain was evidently surprised about the marriage.
So it's probably Cailan who crumpled it out of a tantrum or he was drunk and then folded it back.

At this point, any explanation is as good as any.
But I'd reject any explanation that implies that oghain knew, he was clearly surprised.
Anora knowing and concealing it would make me think less of her.

[Sarah1281]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
@Knight: Are you aware Morrigan's under attack in the Alistair thread?

Out of female jealousy. Couldn't care less.

Besides, Morrigan doing the DR with Alistair never happened. 

And my canon has Loghain doing it but I still hate to hear all that 'Oh, Morrigan's a horrid **** because she told Alistair that he wasn't going to absolutely hate the DR and I was standing right there so how dare she not reassure me that he would be horribly scarred by the experience?!?! And! And! She even pretended to try to bond with me but really just wanted information on what sleeping with Alistair would be like! ****!' talk.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
@Knight: Are you aware Morrigan's under attack in the Alistair thread?

Out of female jealousy. Couldn't care less.

Besides, Morrigan doing the DR with Alistair never happened. 

I know. It was really you, jumping into our games, and shapeshifting yourself to do the DR, so Alistair wouldn't, and thus, preserving the integrity of our respective love interests.

Really, you're a saint. You don't get enough praise.

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Is it? I remember one of them got crumpled, I always thought it the second.

If that was the case, and that was the letter Anora saw, then I couldn't see how Loghain could not know the whole deal. While I can see Anora staying quiet about Cailan's lower mistresses and casual thing, I can't see her keeping from her father that her husband was screwing around with the empress of their former oppressors. Something like that, even Anora would know, comprimises Ferelden's well being.

Definately the third.
http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex_Entry:_Cailan's_Documents_-_Page_3_of_3

Like I said before, this is a vestige of the original concept and it makes little sense here.

I don't see Anora doing it either. And Loghain was evidently surprised about the marriage.
So it's probably Cailan who crumpled it out of a tantrum or he was drunk and then folded it back.

At this point, any explanation is as good as any.
But I'd reject any explanation that implies that oghain knew, he was clearly surprised.
Anora knowing and concealing it would make me think less of her.

True.
It dosent take much to figure out that marrying the leader of a small country to that of a larger EMPIRE is not a good thing at all.

[Sarah1281]

For me, Loghain's acts violated my basic rule of treating others as I want to be treated - that's how I know hat he did was wrong.

Did your Warden want to be killed? Then how in the world can you justify going around murdering scores of humans, qunari, and dwarves? If it really is so simple that you never do things to others that you don't want done to yourself then your Warden was just so very, very wrong the whole game.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Obadiah wrote...

The furtherance of winning does not make an act a good idea.

Haha, clearly a pragmatist is not going to agree with you.

Obadiah wrote...
Loghain chose to undertake a series of ruthless and brutal acts which if they came to light would violate the conscience of the average person.

Would they? The Landsmeet seems content to ignore them.
When your life is on the line, I doubt you'll think that way.

Obadiah wrote...
If there is a univeral law of right and wrong then that is the first sign that he has violated it.

There is no universal law. And if there is one, we don't know it yet.

Obadiah wrote...
For me, Loghain's acts violated my basic rule of treating others as I want to be treated - that's how I know hat he did was wrong.

That's how you *think / believe* that he did wrong.

I am not here to discuss your ethical believfs. I really couldn't care less.
The only thing we can adequately discuss are facts.

[TJPags]

Sarah1281 wrote...

For me, Loghain's acts violated my basic rule of treating others as I want to be treated - that's how I know hat he did was wrong.

Did your Warden want to be killed? Then how in the world can you justify going around murdering scores of humans, qunari, and dwarves? If it really is so simple that you never do things to others that you don't want done to yourself then your Warden was just so very, very wrong the whole game.

A lot of those Qunari, humans, elves and dwarves were attacking my PC when I killed them, you know. Some of them hired by/working on behalf of Loghain.

Nobody was attacking Loghain.

Just pointing that out.

Modifié par TJPags, 27 septembre 2010 - 12:41 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
I don't see much difference between keeping her on the throne and uniting Ferelden under her, personally.

And yes, he did basically take power from her.  Makes the whole first point somewhat moot, at the end.

There is a difference. One is prioritzing  who is on the throne. The other is prioritzing Ferelden.

Probably because he thought Anora can't be a "War queen" and that only he can do it.

[Giggles_Manically]

TJPags wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

For me, Loghain's acts violated my basic rule of treating others as I want to be treated - that's how I know hat he did was wrong.

Did your Warden want to be killed? Then how in the world can you justify going around murdering scores of humans, qunari, and dwarves? If it really is so simple that you never do things to others that you don't want done to yourself then your Warden was just so very, very wrong the whole game.

A lot of those Qunari, humans, elves and dwarves were attacking my PC when I killed them, you know.

Nobody was attacking Loghain.

Just pointing that out.

Except for a good chunk of the nobility yah know. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...
And my canon has Loghain doing it but I still hate to hear all that 'Oh, Morrigan's a horrid **** because she told Alistair that he wasn't going to absolutely hate the DR and I was standing right there so how dare she not reassure me that he would be horribly scarred by the experience?!?! And! And! She even pretended to try to bond with me but really just wanted information on what sleeping with Alistair would be like! ****!' talk.

Yea, so does this really sound like what I would waste my time on?

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
I don't see much difference between keeping her on the throne and uniting Ferelden under her, personally.

And yes, he did basically take power from her.  Makes the whole first point somewhat moot, at the end.

There is a difference. One is prioritzing  who is on the throne. The other is prioritzing Ferelden.

Probably because he thought Anora can't be a "War queen" and that only he can do it.

The first is semantics combined with speculation, and not worth arguing over.

The second is pure speculation, and not worth arguing over further (it's been done to death).

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...



Definately the third.
http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex_Entry:_Cailan's_Documents_-_Page_3_of_3

Like I said before, this is a vestige of the original concept and it makes little sense here.

I don't see Anora doing it either. And Loghain was evidently surprised about the marriage.
So it's probably Cailan who crumpled it out of a tantrum or he was drunk and then folded it back.

At this point, any explanation is as good as any.
But I'd reject any explanation that implies that oghain knew, he was clearly surprised.
Anora knowing and concealing it would make me think less of her.

Ahh, thanks for the link.

That's why I can't really see her as concealing it. Anora is smart and pretty pragmatic. Beyond her own shame, like I said, is the total betrayal of her country. If Anora knew that and sat on it, then yeah, it would make her somewhat accomplice to it. I can't see her not realizing the implications. That would really drop her in my esteem.

I honestly don't see Cailan as being crumpler. He was more likely to crumple up carefully drawn war maps, scrolls of wisdom, or a paper ass chewing from Loghain. But not the letter. The way it is presented, my guess is, Anora.

[Sarah1281]

TJPags wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

For me, Loghain's acts violated my basic rule of treating others as I want to be treated - that's how I know hat he did was wrong.

Did your Warden want to be killed? Then how in the world can you justify going around murdering scores of humans, qunari, and dwarves? If it really is so simple that you never do things to others that you don't want done to yourself then your Warden was just so very, very wrong the whole game.

A lot of those Qunari, humans, elves and dwarves were attacking my PC when I killed them, you know. Some of them hired by/working on behalf of Loghain.

Nobody was attacking Loghain.

Just pointing that out.

You know what that sounds like? Getting into reasoning a lot more grown-up than the 'golden rule.'

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
The first is semantics combined with speculation, and not worth arguing over.

The second is pure speculation, and not worth arguing over further (it's been done to death).

No, it's not semantics.
You are suggesting that Loghain did all he did to put his daughter on the throne. I am saying that he did all this to protect Ferelden and he thought that having his daughter on the throne would be the best way to do that.
Of course it's speculation for you if you don't believe what Loghain is saying.

Depends on whether you believe Loghain or not. Even Eamon said that oghain was never itnerested in power. So it makeslittle sense that he suddenly wanted pwoer and took it from his daughter just because.