12857 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
I honestly don't see Cailan as being crumpler. He was more likely to crumple up carefully drawn war maps, scrolls of wisdom, or a paper ass chewing from Loghain. But not the letter. The way it is presented, my guess is, Anora.

I really don't see that happening. Anora ruled the country, why would she stand by and do nothign when Celene is plotting her way in?

It's possible that Cailan was masturbating to the letter and crumpled it in ecstasy. 
But I really don't see Anora doing this.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
It's possible that Cailan was masturbating to the letter and crumpled it in ecstasy. 
But I really don't see Anora doing this.

What, masturbating to the letter and crumpling it in ecstasy? Yeah, I agree there.

Crumpling it in rage at Cailan's stupidity and betrayal, I can see.

[Sarah1281]

But if Anora crumpled it then Cailan would know that she knew and so it would be REALLY stupid for her to do that.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
What, masturbating to the letter and crumpling it in ecstasy? Yeah, I agree there.

Crumpling it in rage at Cailan's stupidity and betrayal, I can see.

Anora is willing to act against her father who is a hell lot more intimidating than Cailan, in the middle of Loghain's power base. So why wouldnt' she do anything except crumple a letter when it comes to Cailan?

I don't know. It sounds really OOC for Anora.

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
It's possible that Cailan was masturbating to the letter and crumpled it in ecstasy. 
But I really don't see Anora doing this.

There's a mental image that I didn't want... :sick::sick::sick:

I can even picture the ending.... GLORIOUS!

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Sarah1281 wrote...

But if Anora crumpled it then Cailan would know that she knew and so it would be REALLY stupid for her to do that.

When one is caught with a sudden and very personal, hurtful dilema, as well as a rather shocking realization, people are prone to do rash actions. Anora is only human, after all. She would not have thoght of the implications until after. It was carefully smoothed back, and to be honest, I'd argue whether Cailan was bright or observant enough to notice the difference. Or care.

[DragonRacer13]

Zjarcal wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
It's possible that Cailan was masturbating to the letter and crumpled it in ecstasy. 
But I really don't see Anora doing this.

There's a mental image that I didn't want... :sick::sick::sick:

I can even picture the ending.... GLORIOUS!

Oh, Maker... you went there...

*gets out Brain Bleach*

[Giggles_Manically]

Zjarcal wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
It's possible that Cailan was masturbating to the letter and crumpled it in ecstasy. 
But I really don't see Anora doing this.

There's a mental image that I didn't want... :sick::sick::sick:

I can even picture the ending.... GLORIOUS!

[TJPags]

Sarah1281 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

For me, Loghain's acts violated my basic rule of treating others as I want to be treated - that's how I know hat he did was wrong.

Did your Warden want to be killed? Then how in the world can you justify going around murdering scores of humans, qunari, and dwarves? If it really is so simple that you never do things to others that you don't want done to yourself then your Warden was just so very, very wrong the whole game.

A lot of those Qunari, humans, elves and dwarves were attacking my PC when I killed them, you know. Some of them hired by/working on behalf of Loghain.

Nobody was attacking Loghain.

Just pointing that out.

You know what that sounds like? Getting into reasoning a lot more grown-up than the 'golden rule.'

I don't think I spouted the golden rule.  I think I've consitently used reasoning based on facts.

Me, I've never claimed my warden was a saint.  I have claimed - and will continue to - that Loghain was no saint, and that what he did was (IMO) much worse than anything my warden did, justifying certain charges against him, a trial, and a sentence.  I'm willing to leave open what that sentence may be.

Modifié par TJPags, 27 septembre 2010 - 01:00 .

[Sarah1281]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

But if Anora crumpled it then Cailan would know that she knew and so it would be REALLY stupid for her to do that.

When one is caught with a sudden and very personal, hurtful dilema, as well as a rather shocking realization, people are prone to do rash actions. Anora is only human, after all. She would not have thoght of the implications until after. It was carefully smoothed back, and to be honest, I'd argue whether Cailan was bright or observant enough to notice the difference. Or care.

I think it would be rather naive of Anora not to realize that some people who are, dare I say, obsessed with the Theirin bloodline wouldn't be annoyed that there was no child after five years of marriage. She MUST realize that people were talking so why would finding out that Eamon was one of them but Cailan apparently said no such a shocking, hurtful realization? 

[DragonRacer13]

*passes Brain Bleach to Giggles*

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


Anora is willing to act against her father who is a hell lot more intimidating than Cailan, in the middle of Loghain's power base. So why wouldnt' she do anything except crumple a letter when it comes to Cailan?

I don't know. It sounds really OOC for Anora.

Which makes me think she told him something.

Look at it like this. The letter says nothing about marriage plans. It's tone simply hints at a very personal, intimate relationship. Anora knows Cailan likes his mistresses, and is discreet.. She finds the letter and sees evidence of an affair. Even if she knows nothing of his marriage plans, having an intimate, romantic relationship, even if adulterous, is still a threat to Ferelden. Because Cailan's an idiot, and Anora knows celene is a cunning man-eater and master manipulator.

That alone would justify her telling her father that much.

Loghain's surprise comes when he puts the two letters together and realizes that Cailan wasn't having a simple affair, but marriage plans.

[Sarah1281]

TJPags wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

For me, Loghain's acts violated my basic rule of treating others as I want to be treated - that's how I know hat he did was wrong.

Did your Warden want to be killed? Then how in the world can you justify going around murdering scores of humans, qunari, and dwarves? If it really is so simple that you never do things to others that you don't want done to yourself then your Warden was just so very, very wrong the whole game.

A lot of those Qunari, humans, elves and dwarves were attacking my PC when I killed them, you know. Some of them hired by/working on behalf of Loghain.

Nobody was attacking Loghain.

Just pointing that out.

You know what that sounds like? Getting into reasoning a lot more grown-up than the 'golden rule.'

I don't think I spouted the golden rule.  That first quote there was someone else.

Me, I've never claimed my warden was a saint.  I have claimed - and will continue to - that Loghain was no saint, and that what he did was (IMO) much worse than anything my warden did, justifying certain charges against him, a trial, and a sentence.  I'm willing to leave open what that sentence may be.

I know someone else invoked the golden rule. My response to that golden rule was a quick example of why that doesn't really work in regards to DA. Regardless of whether you want to be attacked by the people you kill, they still don't want to die (usually) and so it doesn't matter if they're attacking first as it still violates that golden rule.

[Giggles_Manically]

DragonRacer13 wrote...

*passes Brain Bleach to Giggles*

Thank you.
Now to play some Modern Warfare 2, to get the last vestiges out of the corners.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Sarah1281 wrote...


I think it would be rather naive of Anora not to realize that some people who are, dare I say, obsessed with the Theirin bloodline wouldn't be annoyed that there was no child after five years of marriage. She MUST realize that people were talking so why would finding out that Eamon was one of them but Cailan apparently said no such a shocking, hurtful realization? 

The letter in question has absolutely nothing to do with Eamon, or the marriage proposal. The crumpled letter is the one from Celene, using a familiar tone hinting at intimacy. Thus, what Anora would have been reading was evidence of a sexual affair with the Orlesian empress.

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
The first is semantics combined with speculation, and not worth arguing over.

The second is pure speculation, and not worth arguing over further (it's been done to death).

No, it's not semantics.
You are suggesting that Loghain did all he did to put his daughter on the throne. I am saying that he did all this to protect Ferelden and he thought that having his daughter on the throne would be the best way to do that.
Of course it's speculation for you if you don't believe what Loghain is saying.

Depends on whether you believe Loghain or not. Even Eamon said that oghain was never itnerested in power. So it makeslittle sense that he suddenly wanted pwoer and took it from his daughter just because.

Ah, well, having his daughter on the throne certainly is useful to him keeping some power, be it ruling the country or controlling the army.  In fact, he says virtually that - about Anora ruling the country and him commanding the army - in his first post-Ostagar cutscene.

And given the poetic license Loghain takes with the truth throughout the game, I think it's fair not to believe everything he says.

[TJPags]

Sarah1281 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

For me, Loghain's acts violated my basic rule of treating others as I want to be treated - that's how I know hat he did was wrong.

Did your Warden want to be killed? Then how in the world can you justify going around murdering scores of humans, qunari, and dwarves? If it really is so simple that you never do things to others that you don't want done to yourself then your Warden was just so very, very wrong the whole game.

A lot of those Qunari, humans, elves and dwarves were attacking my PC when I killed them, you know. Some of them hired by/working on behalf of Loghain.

Nobody was attacking Loghain.

Just pointing that out.

You know what that sounds like? Getting into reasoning a lot more grown-up than the 'golden rule.'

I don't think I spouted the golden rule.  That first quote there was someone else.

Me, I've never claimed my warden was a saint.  I have claimed - and will continue to - that Loghain was no saint, and that what he did was (IMO) much worse than anything my warden did, justifying certain charges against him, a trial, and a sentence.  I'm willing to leave open what that sentence may be.

I know someone else invoked the golden rule. My response to that golden rule was a quick example of why that doesn't really work in regards to DA. Regardless of whether you want to be attacked by the people you kill, they still don't want to die (usually) and so it doesn't matter if they're attacking first as it still violates that golden rule.

Fair enough.  But still, there is a difference between killing someone who is actually, you know, attacking you with a sword, and killing someone because they may say something you don't want people to hear.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Loghain's surprise comes when he puts the two letters together and realizes that Cailan wasn't having a simple affair, but marriage plans.

How can Cailan have an affair with a woman who lives in another country? I doubt long distance affairs worked.
I mean Loghain might be pissed off, but to want to kill Cailan over it?

Anora is not stupid. The letter clearly mentionned a "permanent alliance" which doesnt' sound like an affair to me. It clearly had political implications. Which makes marriage more likely. 
If she told Loghain, he too isn't stupid. He was going to suspect marriage. Which doesn't explain his surprise when he sees the letter.

And Cailan apparently had the letters in one place. If Anora saw one, she probably would have seen the others.
Which makes me question why Cailan kept them in the first place. Burn them you idiot.

[Monica21]

TJPags wrote...
Ah, well, having his daughter on the throne certainly is useful to him keeping some power, be it ruling the country or controlling the army.  In fact, he says virtually that - about Anora ruling the country and him commanding the army - in his first post-Ostagar cutscene.

And given the poetic license Loghain takes with the truth throughout the game, I think it's fair not to believe everything he says.

I don't think Loghain wants power for power's sake. I think he wants the throne for Anora because he believes she's the best person to take it, and from everything we hear in game she's been the one doing the actual ruling since she married Cailan. I think he wants command of the armies because he believes he's the only one who can protect Ferelden. That may be arrogance on his part, but I don't think it's power just to have power.

[Obadiah]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

The furtherance of winning does not make an act a good idea.

Haha, clearly a pragmatist is not going to agree with you.

A ruthless one that only cares about winning - yes, that would be a problem.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Obadiah wrote...
Loghain chose to undertake a series of ruthless and brutal acts which if they came to light would violate the conscience of the average person.

Would they? The Landsmeet seems content to ignore them. When your life is on the line, I doubt you'll think that way.

Just because they ignore those feelings doesn't mean they didn't have that reaction. I'm pretty sure most people would have a probem with Loghain's actions.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Obadiah wrote...
If there is a univeral law of right and wrong then that is the first sign that he has violated it.

There is no universal law. And if there is one, we don't know it yet.

There is. If you look at the laws codified around the world, there is a certain consistency. At least: don't murder, don't lie. Even tyrants try to enforce those in addition to, "do what I say."

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Obadiah wrote...
For me, Loghain's acts violated my basic rule of treating others as I want to be treated - that's how I know hat he did was wrong.

That's how you *think / believe* that he did wrong.

I am not here to discuss your ethical believfs. I really couldn't care less.
The only thing we can adequately discuss are facts.

That's right. I'm giving my judgement based on the facts as I see them, and by my own ethical standards, which I think are largely shared by the characters of Ferelden. What else is anyone expected to judge Loghain's actions by? Without an ethical standard, it's just a bunch of actions by Loghain that ended in failure.

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
Ah, well, having his daughter on the throne certainly is useful to him keeping some power, be it ruling the country or controlling the army.  In fact, he says virtually that - about Anora ruling the country and him commanding the army - in his first post-Ostagar cutscene.

And given the poetic license Loghain takes with the truth throughout the game, I think it's fair not to believe everything he says.

Because he thinks only he can pull it off. It depends on whether you think he did all this for his own power or not. My understanding of his character is that he never wanted power for its own sake. The way I see him, it's Ferelden that mattered to him, not power. 

The truth? Nothing was clear in the game. All you had is interpretations of facts happening. 
And regardless of what you think of his perception of poitics, it's what he says about himself that I am referring to. You can of course not believe him, but I think he has much interest in lying to you, he's actually pretty straight foward

[Sarah1281]

There is. If you look at the laws codified around the world, there is a certain consistency. At least: don't murder, don't lie. Even tyrants try to enforce those in addition to, "do what I say."

What constitutes as 'murder' differs from society to society. And really? 'Don't lie'? What, are we five now?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Obadiah wrote...
A ruthless one that only cares about winning - yes, that would be a problem.

Would it?
I see human hsitory built by people liek that.

Obadiah wrote...
Just because they ignore those feelings doesn't mean they didn't have that reaction. I'm pretty sure most people would have a probem with Loghain's actions.

And how is that relevent when they are willign to follow him regardless? It shows that their dedication to those principles is not as strong when their lives are put on the line.
Hence why at the end, they resort to Might makes Right and nothing else.

Obadiah wrote...
There is. If you look at the laws codified around the world, there is a certain consistency. At least: don't murder, don't lie. Even tyrants try to enforce those in addition to, "do what I say."

Purely for instrumental reasons to preserve order (and the Spartans loved to murder hellots as a right of passage).
But you'll find that the definition of murder varies, and what is considered self-defense varies. And not to mention honor killing and other types of killings.

Which is not really relevent, when you are at war, social conventions don't matter anymore. I recommend reading The History of the Peloponesian War by Thucydides. Talks about that.

That's right. I'm giving my judgement based on the facts as I see them, and by my own ethical standards, which I think are largely shared by the characters of Ferelden. What else is anyone expected to judge Loghain's actions by? Without an ethical standard, it's just a bunch of actions by Loghain that ended in failure.

If you want to kill him because he failed. Go ahead.
I prefer a much more complex study of the character, based on motives, circumstances, how that person thinks...etc in order to judge an act.

I am not talkign about you judging him in-game. We are taking an out-game perspective here. I am not trying to tell you how to judge him in-game.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 27 septembre 2010 - 01:25 .

[Obadiah]

TJPags wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

For me, Loghain's acts violated my basic rule of treating others as I want to be treated - that's how I know hat he did was wrong.

Did your Warden want to be killed? Then how in the world can you justify going around murdering scores of humans, qunari, and dwarves? If it really is so simple that you never do things to others that you don't want done to yourself then your Warden was just so very, very wrong the whole game.

A lot of those Qunari, humans, elves and dwarves were attacking my PC when I killed them, you know. Some of them hired by/working on behalf of Loghain.

Nobody was attacking Loghain.

Just pointing that out.

You know what that sounds like? Getting into reasoning a lot more grown-up than the 'golden rule.'

I don't think I spouted the golden rule.  That first quote there was someone else.

Me, I've never claimed my warden was a saint.  I have claimed - and will continue to - that Loghain was no saint, and that what he did was (IMO) much worse than anything my warden did, justifying certain charges against him, a trial, and a sentence.  I'm willing to leave open what that sentence may be.

I know someone else invoked the golden rule. My response to that golden rule was a quick example of why that doesn't really work in regards to DA. Regardless of whether you want to be attacked by the people you kill, they still don't want to die (usually) and so it doesn't matter if they're attacking first as it still violates that golden rule.

Fair enough.  But still, there is a difference between killing someone who is actually, you know, attacking you with a sword, and killing someone because they may say something you don't want people to hear.

The warden is usually attacking with lethal force people or things that initiated the attack in kind. The golden rule applies. Maybe it is just me, but if I lose that fight I don't expect to survive.

Modifié par Obadiah, 27 septembre 2010 - 01:27 .

[Sarah1281]

The warden is usually attacking with lethal force people or things that attacked in kind. The golden rule applies. Maybe it is just me, but if I lose that fight I don't expect to survive.

It doesn't matter what you EXPECT. The golden rule is about what you WANT to happen and unless your Warden is suicidal then no, it does not apply.