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[Persephone]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Persephone wrote...

People use the word "evil" so freely....it's...well... Anyway. Was he wrong? Yes. Misled? Yes. Paranoid? Yes. Evil? I don't think so. At all.

Paranoid? No. Wrong? In a sense only that the Grey Wardens have importance. Misled? I agree here.

Evil? Seriously, calling someone who is a patriot above all evil is really dumb.

In my opinion the only stupid thing that Loghain did was to try and save Cailan.

Well, stupidity (Cailan) shouldn't be a death sentence. I dislike Cailan with a passion, but he didn't deserve to die, IMO.

[Obadiah]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Obadiah wrote...
Not all of it. If it were no one would ever have allies.

How so? Can't you have allies and be equally pragmatic about winning?
And many alliances were centralised around one power that kept them in line (Sparta / Athens / Rome before it became an Empire).

You think that pragmatists and Realists espouse going to war all the time? There are benefits to be had with having allies. Economic, strategic and otherwise.
And because you have enemies all the time, it make it beneficial to have allies.

I think if a person A behaves a certain way for pragmatic only reasons, then person B cannot trust that A will change his mind and betray him for those same reasons. Allies have to trust each other. That can't happen if the one party has no integritry. Doesn't always work out that way.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

My contention is that Loghain's actions were wrong and evil. The conscience is indicative of that, but people ignore their conscience all the time.

Purely subjective opinion, can't discuss that. Believe what you will.

I don't think social conventions are ever irrelevant, and they are indicative of right and wrong. If Loghain didn't have to torture those people (and apparently he didn't because according to you the Banns didn't care anyway) then he shouldn't have. It was just a pointless sick excercise that he shouldn't have engaged in or countenanced.

In war and chaos, they become irrelevent.
We see during natural disasters that many people end up stealing to survive. Does that make them evil?

I didn't say every illegal act was evil. I judged Loghain's actions. I don't know why you're bringing this up if you don't want an ethical discussion.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
About Torture. A deterrent. If he can't deter his enemies by  proving his strength, he'd lose his position.
Torture was not invented for the lulz you know (though some did take pleasure in it, but I don't think that's Loghain). It has instrumental use. To put fear in the heart of your enemies.
And torture is sometimes scarier than death.

You can argue that this is a wrong practise. But you would be saying so in a world that probably practises torture everywhere.

Yes, I thought I was. Pragmatically, it makes more enemies. Sure, it might quell/scare them temporarily, but once those enemies have been made they'll pounce the first chance they get. Is your position that torture is right, merely that it is done, or useful?

I don't think torture is good or right at all. It is an evil act.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
And you are entitled to your opinion.

Thanks I totally wasn't sure about that. BTW, so are you.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
But a discussion cannot be based on that or revolve around that as it's a waste of time. You believe what you will, I don't think anyone attacked you for your beliefs.

I was attacked?

It's only a waste of time because you keep responding by NOT saying whether what Loghain did was right or wrong, just that he did it and he had a good reason. I don't dispute that, just that Loghain's actions were also wrong and evil by my ethical standard, and he had alternatives. I explained my ethical standard because I think any other readers should judge him by some ethical standard as well, not just whether what he did was useful, or might have worked.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
And I saw no indication that Loghain thought what he did was evil. He doesn't like doing them. That hardly makes him think they are evil. He thinks they were necessary.

Why do you think Loghain doesn't like doing them? Because his actions are dispicable by any measure, even his own - he knows he is doing something wrong, at least I hope so.

Modifié par Obadiah, 27 septembre 2010 - 03:59 .

[Monica21]

Obadiah wrote...
It's only a waste of time because you keep responding by NOT saying whether what Loghain did was right or wrong, just that he did it and he had a good reason. I don't dispute that, just that Loghain's actions were also wrong and evil by my ethical standard, and he had alternatives. I explained my ethical standard because I think any other readers should judge him by some ethical standard as well, not just whether what he did was useful, or might have worked.

Sorry to jump into this, but why does anyone have to make a black or white, right or wrong, or good or evil decision about Loghain's actions? They're subjective and serve no purpose. The only real crime he committed by Ferelden standards was selling the elves. I was going to say employing a blood mage, but I'm not entirely sure if that's Ferelden law or Chantry law, and what the difference is.

Why should any of us judge him by our own ethical standard? I choose not to. There are things he did that I wouldn't do, and I know he would execute me at the Landsmeet if he could, but I choose not to. That doesn't mean I'm required to judge him that way.

[Sarah1281]

@Obadiah: So basically what you're saying is that by your own personal ethical standards, Loghain acted in an evil manner. Okay, we get it. What's there to coninue talking about in that vein? Whether what Loghain did was really evil according to your standards or not? We'd be hard-pressed to do that and I frankly don't see the point. Maybe we could all accept that you believe his actions were evil and you could move on to explaining why his actions being morally upsetting to you is more important than whether they were necessary?

[Obadiah]

Persephone wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Persephone wrote...

People use the word "evil" so freely....it's...well... Anyway. Was he wrong? Yes. Misled? Yes. Paranoid? Yes. Evil? I don't think so. At all.

Paranoid? No. Wrong? In a sense only that the Grey Wardens have importance. Misled? I agree here.

Evil? Seriously, calling someone who is a patriot above all evil is really dumb.

In my opinion the only stupid thing that Loghain did was to try and save Cailan.

Well, stupidity (Cailan) shouldn't be a death sentence. I dislike Cailan with a passion, but he didn't deserve to die, IMO.

Well, how you do you think Cailin should have been handled?

I think that if Loghain thought there was a possibility of failure and retreat, he should have set up a signal for that with Cailin, and when the whole thing went south, he should have given it. That would have also driven home to the King the point that he shouldn't be in that vulnerable a position.

Maybe he should have tried to get Duncan on his side of the arguement before the war plan, since the King listened to the Grey Wardens?

Modifié par Obadiah, 27 septembre 2010 - 04:09 .

[Sarah1281]

Maybe he should have tried to get Duncan on his side of the arguement before the war plan, since the King listened to the Grey Wardens?

Not really. Duncan kept trying to insist that it was a Blight and Cailan pretty much brushes him off. And this is the man who WANTS a Blight to happen.



And you think that Loghain should have set up a signal to retreat so that before Cailan died he could have his stupidity rubbed in his face? Seems kind of over-the-top. People on the front lines don't really have much of an option to retreat, you know.

[TJPags]

Monica21 wrote...

Obadiah wrote...
It's only a waste of time because you keep responding by NOT saying whether what Loghain did was right or wrong, just that he did it and he had a good reason. I don't dispute that, just that Loghain's actions were also wrong and evil by my ethical standard, and he had alternatives. I explained my ethical standard because I think any other readers should judge him by some ethical standard as well, not just whether what he did was useful, or might have worked.

Sorry to jump into this, but why does anyone have to make a black or white, right or wrong, or good or evil decision about Loghain's actions? They're subjective and serve no purpose. The only real crime he committed by Ferelden standards was selling the elves. I was going to say employing a blood mage, but I'm not entirely sure if that's Ferelden law or Chantry law, and what the difference is.

Why should any of us judge him by our own ethical standard? I choose not to. There are things he did that I wouldn't do, and I know he would execute me at the Landsmeet if he could, but I choose not to. That doesn't mean I'm required to judge him that way.

Well, he is being judged, isn't he?  And so there has to be some standard to be applied.

I'm not saying any one persons standard is more valid or better than anyone else's, but you have to judge him by SOME standard.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Obadiah wrote...
I think if a person A behaves a certain way for pragmatic only reasons, then person B cannot trust that A will change his mind and betray him for those same reasons. Allies have to trust each other. That can't happen if the one party has no integritry. Doesn't always work out that way.

Well I'd very much like for you to show me when an alliance has ever been established by trust alone.
It's based on mutual interest and not trust.
One can predict their allies based on internal and international politics, balance of power shifts...etc.

That's how politics works. Unconditional trust doesn't exist in politics. Integrity? Meh. 

So what person B should do is make sure that he and person A can mutually assist each other, in other words give A incentives to not change his mind. Or person B can ally with person C to deter A.
And a whole list of things he should do.

I didn't say every illegal act was evil. I judged Loghain's actions. I don't knwo why you're bringing this up if you don't want an ethical discussion.

I am not. You did.
You can believe what you want.

Yes, I thought I was. Pragmatically, it makes more enemies. Sure, it might quell/scare them temporarily, but once those enemies have been made they'll pounce the first chance they get. Is your position that torture is right, merely that it is done, or useful?

The usefullness of torture depends heavily on the circumstances of its use. So I won't say that torture is absolutely uselful or useless. It depends on when, how and why.

If torture is useful and necessary, I won't see it as "evil".

I explained my ethical standard because I think any other readers should judge him by some ethical standard as well, not just whether what he did was useful, or might have worked.

Because that is the only thing we can objectively discuss.

But if you are so adamant about knowing my ethical opinion, then I think most of what he did was "right" or jsutified based on his motives, circumstances..etc. And nothing he did makes me want to kill him.
And I would not describe him as "evil" at all.

Obadiah wrote...
Why do you think Loghain doesn't like doing them? Because his actions are dispicable by any measure, even his own - he knows he is doing something wrong, at least I hope so.

He can do something, feel it's necessary and not like doing it. There is no necessary corrolation between that and an ethical position. Anymore than there is a corrolation about a parent feeling bad about punishing a boy and thinking that what they did is "wrong".

An act being pleasant or unpleasant has little to do with whether it's right or wrong.
Cutting the arm of a loved one to save them is unpleasant (aka won't give you pleasure). That doesn't make it wrong.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 27 septembre 2010 - 04:18 .

[Obadiah]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Maybe he should have tried to get Duncan on his side of the arguement before the war plan, since the King listened to the Grey Wardens?

Not really. Duncan kept trying to insist that it was a Blight and Cailan pretty much brushes him off. And this is the man who WANTS a Blight to happen.

And you think that Loghain should have set up a signal to retreat so that before Cailan died he could have his stupidity rubbed in his face? Seems kind of over-the-top. People on the front lines don't really have much of an option to retreat, you know.

I dont agree that Cailin wants a Blight to happen - he just wants some sort of glory.

Cailin needed to understand that he was taking the poisition of "bait" in this maneouvre, he didn't. Armies can call a retreat, even a surrender(not possible with the darkspawn obviously), and people on the frontline die. At least those that escape during a reatreat from the front lines would know that they should run and that they aren't desserting, and leaving the other forces vulnerable.

[Monica21]

TJPags wrote...
Well, he is being judged, isn't he?  And so there has to be some standard to be applied.

I'm not saying any one persons standard is more valid or better than anyone else's, but you have to judge him by SOME standard.

But we can't all have the same standard, so what's the point of applying a moral standard? It's too subjective. I disagree that he's evil or that there's any right or wrong to his actions. I believe that he does what he believes he has to do, and things that I might do myself if I were in his boots.

And KoP is right. His actions can't really be discussed objectively if everything is going to devolve into good vs. evil or right vs. wrong. Everyone's idea of what those things are or what they mean are different.

[Sarah1281]

Obadiah wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Maybe he should have tried to get Duncan on his side of the arguement before the war plan, since the King listened to the Grey Wardens?

Not really. Duncan kept trying to insist that it was a Blight and Cailan pretty much brushes him off. And this is the man who WANTS a Blight to happen.

And you think that Loghain should have set up a signal to retreat so that before Cailan died he could have his stupidity rubbed in his face? Seems kind of over-the-top. People on the front lines don't really have much of an option to retreat, you know.

I dont agree that Cailin wants a Blight to happen - he just wants some sort of glory.

Cailin needed to understand that he was taking the poisition of "bait" in this maneouvre, he didn't. Armies can call a retreat, even a surrender(not possible with the darkspawn obviously), and people on the frontline die. At least those that escape during a reatreat from the front lines would know that they should run and that they aren't desserting, and leaving the other forces vulnerable.

From the toolset...

Cailan: I'm not even sure this is a true Blight. There are plenty of darkspawn on the field, but alas, we've seen no sign of an archdemon. (Dismissively. This game isn't as fun as he'd hoped.)
Duncan: Disappointed, your Majesty? (Wry. He's played the game before, and knows it's *never* fun)
Cailan: I'd hoped for a war like in the tales! A king riding with the fabled Grey Wardens against a tainted god! But I suppose this will have to do. (Light. He knows if he said this too strong, he'd look childish) I must go before Loghain sends out a search party. Farewell, Grey Wardens! (Satisfied. He's done his duty, and is only half-joking about the search party)

Wow, his VO notes make him look even worse than I'd thought. I do like the part about only be  half-joking about Loghain sending out a search party for him, though. And I think it's quite clear that Cailan DID want it to be a Blight because he's an idiot.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...
. And I think it's quite clear that Cailan DID want it to be a Blight because he's an idiot.

But he is an adorable idiot.

[Zjarcal]

Sarah1281 wrote...
. And I think it's quite clear that Cailan DID want it to be a Blight because he's an idiot.

No need to cross that Sarah. He IS an idiot.

[Obadiah]

Monica21 wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Well, he is being judged, isn't he?  And so there has to be some standard to be applied.

I'm not saying any one persons standard is more valid or better than anyone else's, but you have to judge him by SOME standard.

But we can't all have the same standard, so what's the point of applying a moral standard? It's too subjective. I disagree that he's evil or that there's any right or wrong to his actions. I believe that he does what he believes he has to do, and things that I might do myself if I were in his boots.

And KoP is right. His actions can't really be discussed objectively if everything is going to devolve into good vs. evil or right vs. wrong. Everyone's idea of what those things are or what they mean are different.

I don't think it's really a devolution. I think it's actually kind of important.

I believe there is evil in the world, and not only the obvious "serial murderer" type - sometimes it is committed with the best of intentions. I think Loghain is an example of this. I think they're the best kinds of fictional villains.

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

From the toolset...

Cailan: I'm not even sure this is a true Blight. There are plenty of darkspawn on the field, but alas, we've seen no sign of an archdemon. (Dismissively. This game isn't as fun as he'd hoped.)
Duncan: Disappointed, your Majesty? (Wry. He's played the game before, and knows it's *never* fun)
Cailan: I'd hoped for a war like in the tales! A king riding with the fabled Grey Wardens against a tainted god! But I suppose this will have to do. (Light. He knows if he said this too strong, he'd look childish) I must go before Loghain sends out a search party. Farewell, Grey Wardens! (Satisfied. He's done his duty, and is only half-joking about the search party)

Wow, his VO notes make him look even worse than I'd thought. I do like the part about only be  half-joking about Loghain sending out a search party for him, though. And I think it's quite clear that Cailan DID want it to be a Blight because he's an idiot.

Wants a Blight?!  That would be more than just stupid, it would be evil.  I don't read the VO notes that way.  He's dismissing the darkspawn threat out of bravado, the way a military or athlete type would say "what, is that all you've got?"  Bravado is part of motivating soldiers, for one thing, though Cailan takes it too far.  And let's not forget that Loghain also underestimates the danger they are in.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
Wants a Blight?!  That would be more than just stupid, it would be evil.  I don't read the VO notes that way. 

Hoping for a blight (because it's more fun) is kind of the same as wanting a blight. No?

[phaonica]

"I'd hoped for a war like in the tales!"



I don't think you even need the VO notes. A Blight or just a war, it doesn't matter to him. He doesn't care what they mean to others, just what they mean to him.

[Monica21]

Obadiah wrote...
I don't think it's really a devolution. I think it's actually kind of important.

I believe there is evil in the world, and not only the obvious "serial murderer" type - sometimes it is committed with the best of intentions. I think Loghain is an example of this. I think they're the best kinds of fictional villains.

Okay then. Does Loghain commit evil acts in your view, or is he, himself, evil?

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Wants a Blight?!  That would be more than just stupid, it would be evil.  I don't read the VO notes that way. 

Hoping for a blight (because it's more fun) is kind of the same as wanting a blight. No?

No one is that stupid and shallow, not even Cailan.  I refuse to believe that.  I think Ostagar shows a caricature of both Cailan and Loghain, which RtO tries to deepen (with mixed success).

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
No one is that stupid and shallow, not even Cailan.  I refuse to believe that.  I think Ostagar shows a caricature of both Cailan and Loghain, which RtO tries to deepen (with mixed success).

I do think he is that stupid and shallow.
Regardless of whether he actually wanted that or not, saying what he said makes him stupid and shallow anyways.

[Persephone]

phaonica wrote...

"I'd hoped for a war like in the tales!"

I don't think you even need the VO notes. A Blight or just a war, it doesn't matter to him. He doesn't care what they mean to others, just what they mean to him.

And something "But, alas, there's been no sign of an archdemon!"........ I was like......"But that's a good thing, you blasted........!!!!!!!!"

[Obadiah]

Monica21 wrote...

Obadiah wrote...
I don't think it's really a devolution. I think it's actually kind of important.

I believe there is evil in the world, and not only the obvious "serial murderer" type - sometimes it is committed with the best of intentions. I think Loghain is an example of this. I think they're the best kinds of fictional villains.

Okay then. Does Loghain commit evil acts in your view, or is he, himself, evil?

I like the guy, but I think he crossed over.

Evil.

If the Warden wasn't there, a lot more stuff would be going down besides survivor torture, and that alienage/slavery thing in the name of uniting Ferelden and keeping the Orlesians out.

Modifié par Obadiah, 27 septembre 2010 - 05:21 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Persephone wrote...

phaonica wrote...

"I'd hoped for a war like in the tales!"

I don't think you even need the VO notes. A Blight or just a war, it doesn't matter to him. He doesn't care what they mean to others, just what they mean to him.

And something "But, alas, there's been no sign of an archdemon!"........ I was like......"But that's a good thing, you blasted........!!!!!!!!"

Playing as a dwarf, I was actually offended.
I wanted to take him by the ear and throw him in the deep roads so he knows what my people have to go through every day and then let him say it's glorious.
Yes, I am in character now lol

[Elhanan]

Monica21 wrote...

Okay then. Does Loghain commit evil acts in your view, or is he, himself, evil?

IMO; both.

When one does an act of evil, then that idividual is evil; guilty of the crime, sin, act, etc. Same goes for all.

Do I believe that Loghain has evil intent? No; not always, but the character is one that has allowed himself to be caught in the mire of his own hatred, and has chosen actions out of expediency and justification. he may or may not see them as evil any longer, but his POV is tainted thru his hatred of Orlais.

Do I believe in redemption? Yes. I believe in repentence, atonement, mercy, and love. I also believe in justice. As the Warden, we are allowed to be involved with the law of Ferelden, and as players, may choose how such justice is delivered.

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Persephone wrote...

phaonica wrote...

"I'd hoped for a war like in the tales!"

I don't think you even need the VO notes. A Blight or just a war, it doesn't matter to him. He doesn't care what they mean to others, just what they mean to him.

And something "But, alas, there's been no sign of an archdemon!"........ I was like......"But that's a good thing, you blasted........!!!!!!!!"

Playing as a dwarf, I was actually offended.
I wanted to take him by the ear and throw him in the deep roads so he knows what my people have to go through every day and then let him say it's glorious.
Yes, I am in character now lol

And Loghain had to deal with that vacuum for brains for Maker knows how long.