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[DragonRacer13]

Monica21 wrote...

DragonRacer13 wrote...
Uh, I have no idea. Since I'm a chick.

I know, but I'm wondering if the dudes have officially decided that Loghain fan art isn't really supportable.

So, in that vein, and something I've been musing on recently, is that Fereldens have the shortest memories of any occupied country ever. The French and the British aren't going to invade each other anytime soon but they still have sort of a "yeah, whatever" quality to their relationship. Ask anyone born in the former Confederates states what they think of General Sherman, and you won't get kind words. So why is Loghain the only (rightfully) worried SOB in the entire game?

Dudes probably appreciate him as a character, but not sure how many really care about fanart of him... especially smexy fanart. Well, unless they lean that way, that is.

From my general experience with most Fereldan folk, they do not seem to exactly be... oh, what's a kind way of putting this?... not really the sharpest tools in the shed. The brightest crayons in the box? An Archdemon short of a Blight?

[Addai]

CalJones wrote...
Incidentally, does anyone know how to delete old profile pics? I seem to have a few of characters I abandonned or deleted cluttering up my profile.

If you can get to the Manage Characters tab in your player profile, that's where I go to delete old character photos.  There may be a way through the web, but usually I click on Player Profile/ Online Profile from the game.

[Urazz]

I like Loghain and can understand both sparing him and killing him. My main playthrough has Alistair (hardened) marrying Anora with me executing Loghain but I also have an alternate save where Alistair still marries Anora but I save Loghain.

[CalJones]

Ah cheers, I'm a girl again. I'd never really poked around the "social network" part of the site - I just go straight to the forum.

So anyway...the English/French rivalry has been going on for centuries, but the last Frenchie to invade was William the Conquerer and we've kicked their derrieres several times since then. Even so, it's been quite a while since Wellington put the boot into Napoleon and I daresay we're on more civilised terms these days (even if we call them frogs and they call us rosbifs, heh).

Probably better to compare how the French feel about the Germans, who occupied them during the war - though it's a difficult comparison because it was less than a decade, versus 80 years for Fereldan, and most modern Germans are a bit horrified by the ****s whereas the Orlesians don't seem to have changed all that much judging by the fact chevaliers can still go around raping women.

I really don't blame Loghain for his views on Orlais, to tell the truth. It's Cailan I want to slap upside the head and tell him to wise up.

[Monica21]

CalJones wrote...

I really don't blame Loghain for his views on Orlais, to tell the truth. It's Cailan I want to slap upside the head and tell him to wise up.

And Eamon, who actually fought in the war if memory serves.

[CalJones]

Well...yes and no. Loghain does say "you fought with us, Eamon" at the Landsmeet, but in the Stolen Throne he was about 15 during the battle where Arl Rendorn was killed and was promptly shipped off to the Free Marches with Teagan to preserve the Guerrin line.

Whether he came back and fought after River Dane, I don't know...that battle was the turning point rather than the end of the war, as it took another three years to get rid of Meghren.

[KnightofPhoenix]

DragonRacer13 wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
wondering if the dudes have officially decided that Loghain fan art isn't really supportable.

[b]Dudes probably appreciate him as a character, but not sure how many really care about fanart of him... especially smexy fanart. Well, unless they lean that way, that is.

I want Loghain art and no, not the smexy kind.

An art of him in the battle of the River Dane would be definitive.

[phaonica]

CalJones wrote...

Heh I found that one last week. If you go to page it's on and scroll down, the text that inspired it is quite naughty!

Oh, my. I didn't know that was there. *fans self* Where's the nosebleed smiley?

[phaonica]

Monica21 wrote...

I know, but I'm wondering if the dudes have officially decided that Loghain fan art isn't really supportable.

Lol. My bad. Thread dropped to the second page, thought I'd throw something steamy out there.

[Monica21]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I want Loghain art and no, not the smexy kind.

An art of him in the battle of the River Dane would be definitive.

That would actually be very cool. A nice wallpaper sized version.

[phaonica]

Monica21 wrote...

So, in that vein, and something I've been musing on recently, is that Fereldens have the shortest memories of any occupied country ever. The French and the British aren't going to invade each other anytime soon but they still have sort of a "yeah, whatever" quality to their relationship. Ask anyone born in the former Confederates states what they think of General Sherman, and you won't get kind words. So why is Loghain the only (rightfully) worried SOB in the entire game?

This has always bothered me about the game. The occupation wasn't that long ago, because I guess Loghain's in his... what have we said, his 50s. That's not that long ago. So for all that the blight is Really Really Bad, I find it odd that almost no one in Ferelden seems to even remotely sympathize with the sentiment of trying to avoid re-occupation.

[Sarah1281]

CalJones wrote...

Also a chick. I just prefer playing guys for various reasons (and well, there's no happy ending to the Alistair romance if you're a Loggy fan, so might as well play a bloke and get the best father in law ever instead).

That would require playing a *shudder* HN every time.

[KnightofPhoenix]

phaonica wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

So, in that vein, and something I've been musing on recently, is that Fereldens have the shortest memories of any occupied country ever. The French and the British aren't going to invade each other anytime soon but they still have sort of a "yeah, whatever" quality to their relationship. Ask anyone born in the former Confederates states what they think of General Sherman, and you won't get kind words. So why is Loghain the only (rightfully) worried SOB in the entire game?

This has always bothered me about the game. The occupation wasn't that long ago, because I guess Loghain's in his... what have we said, his 50s. That's not that long ago. So for all that the blight is Really Really Bad, I find it odd that almost no one in Ferelden seems to even remotely sympathize with the sentiment of trying to avoid re-occupation.

We never see what the commoners think, but I suspect they would be supporting the hero of the River Dane. Also, most of the nobility sided with Loghain during the civil war, minus the bannorn. So they too could have similar concerns.

We just don't see any of them because, well players have to be constantly reminded that they are in on the right side.

[phaonica]

Sarah1281 wrote...

CalJones wrote...
Also a chick. I just prefer playing guys for various reasons (and well, there's no happy ending to the Alistair romance if you're a Loggy fan, so might as well play a bloke and get the best father in law ever instead).

That would require playing a *shudder* HN every time.

It's funny because I'm a girl gamer who usually plays guy characters, too (for various reasons including the one in Cal's signature). I usually find "human female" to be kind of a boring background (which is why I play anything but Breton, Nord, and Imperial in the Elder Scrolls series) ... and here I am with a human female noble as my favorite playthrough. And DAO completely changed the way I see fantasy dwarves, too. Dwarf Noble will be my next playthrough, which I will get to eventually.

[Sarah1281]

phaonica wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

CalJones wrote...
Also a chick. I just prefer playing guys for various reasons (and well, there's no happy ending to the Alistair romance if you're a Loggy fan, so might as well play a bloke and get the best father in law ever instead).

That would require playing a *shudder* HN every time.

It's funny because I'm a girl gamer who usually plays guy characters, too (for various reasons including the one in Cal's signature). I usually find "human female" to be kind of a boring background (which is why I play anything but Breton, Nord, and Imperial in the Elder Scrolls series) ... and here I am with a human female noble as my favorite playthrough. And DAO completely changed the way I see fantasy dwarves, too. Dwarf Noble will be my next playthrough, which I will get to eventually.

I managed to get through a HNF but my attempt at a HNM died shortly after Lothering because he was so freaking boring. Not even Loghain was enough to motivate that game...

[Monica21]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
We never see what the commoners think, but I suspect they would be supporting the hero of the River Dane. Also, most of the nobility sided with Loghain during the civil war, minus the bannorn. So they too could have similar concerns.

We just don't see any of them because, well players have to be constantly reminded that they are in on the right side.

And I guess that's one of my biggest problems with how the game portrays Loghain. The nobles that he fought with turned against him. Teagan is old enough to remember the occupation and remember Loghain's heroism, but he questions what happened at Ostagar despite the fact that he wasn't even there.

The player is forced into viewing Loghain through a black and white lens. Your first conversation about Ostagar is "why did Loghain abandon the field." The player doesn't have the opportunity to consider it a tactical retreat.

Modifié par Monica21, 26 août 2010 - 05:53 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

We never see what the commoners think, but I suspect they would be supporting the hero of the River Dane. Also, most of the nobility sided with Loghain during the civil war, minus the bannorn. So they too could have similar concerns.

We just don't see any of them because, well players have to be constantly reminded that they are in on the right side.

If you follow the gossip, there is quite a bit of dissension about Loghain among the commoners.  In Denerim and the Frostbacks, the gossipers are talking about his brutal repressions.  Anora also mentions great unrest in Denerim due to the defeat at Ostagar.  Riots in Gwaren and Highever... Highever is understandable, because of the hostile takeover, but a riot in Loghain's own teyrnir does not bode well.

[Costin_Razvan]

 

We never see what the commoners think, but I suspect they would be supporting the hero of the River Dane. Also, most of the nobility sided with Loghain during the civil war, minus the bannorn. So they too could have similar concerns.
We just don't see any of them because, well players have to be constantly reminded that they are in on the right side.

Yeah that....I suspect the commoners would support Loghain, then again ( to quote Jorah Mormont from A Song Ice and Fire ): The common people pray for rain, healthy children, and a summer that never ends. It is no matter to them if the high lords play their game of thrones, so long as they are left in peace. They never are.

Though, if he dies killing the Archdemon, his statue is quite visited. It is not if you kill him at the Landsmeet because I think the nobles wasted no time in doing smear jobs on him.

As for players being right....I think Loghain is the one who made the right choices, as "monstrous" as the choices had been. The only thing I can begrudge him is not trusting Duncan.....then again would anyone here claim they could, with the lives of hundreds of thousands on their shoulders, trust the words of an organization which offers no proof of it's claims?

Now obviously Loghain himself claims he has done so much wrong at the end, but I think  that has more to do with what kind of choices he made, not the results of said choices.

[Addai]

Monica21 wrote...

The player is forced into viewing Loghain through a black and white lens. Your first conversation about Ostagar is "why did Loghain abandon the field." The player doesn't have the opportunity to consider it a tactical retreat.

Because especially in a feudal view, abandoning the king's army is unthinkable, it's treason.  Then there is the fact that he's trying to blame the Wardens and kill you.  It rather does enforce a point of view.

[Costin_Razvan]

Anora also mentions great unrest in Denerim due to the defeat at Ostagar. Riots in Gwaren and Highever... Highever is understandable, because of the hostile takeover, but a riot in Loghain's own teyrnir does not bode well.

I would wager it is due to increased taxes he places mostly.

[phaonica]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

phaonica wrote...

This has always bothered me about the game. The occupation wasn't that long ago, because I guess Loghain's in his... what have we said, his 50s. That's not that long ago. So for all that the blight is Really Really Bad, I find it odd that almost no one in Ferelden seems to even remotely sympathize with the sentiment of trying to avoid re-occupation.

We never see what the commoners think, but I suspect they would be supporting the hero of the River Dane. Also, most of the nobility sided with Loghain during the civil war, minus the bannorn. So they too could have similar concerns.

We just don't see any of them because, well players have to be constantly reminded that they are in on the right side.

It's probably a mechanics thing too. If the player is given too much reason to doubt, then they start wanting choices and options that could potentially branch the story too drastically.

I don't know. Even Anora supported bringing in the Orlesians for help early in the game, and of all people you'd think that she had the most exposure to considering them with a political wariness.

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Anora also mentions great unrest in Denerim due to the defeat at Ostagar. Riots in Gwaren and Highever... Highever is understandable, because of the hostile takeover, but a riot in Loghain's own teyrnir does not bode well.

I would wager it is due to increased taxes he places mostly.

And likely forced conscriptions into the army.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

We never see what the commoners think, but I suspect they would be supporting the hero of the River Dane. Also, most of the nobility sided with Loghain during the civil war, minus the bannorn. So they too could have similar concerns.

We just don't see any of them because, well players have to be constantly reminded that they are in on the right side.

If you follow the gossip, there is quite a bit of dissension about Loghain among the commoners.  In Denerim and the Frostbacks, the gossipers are talking about his brutal repressions.  Anora also mentions great unrest in Denerim due to the defeat at Ostagar.  Riots in Gwaren and Highever... Highever is understandable, because of the hostile takeover, but a riot in Loghain's own teyrnir does not bode well.

And those same gossipers also sometimes talk positively about Loghain and how he is in fact beating the bannorn.
The unrest in Denerim is mostly in the Alienage.
Unrest in Gwaren can be attributed to the hardships of war. The Warden had to deal with riots in Awakening too. Or due to Loghain seemingly abandonning the southern territories (Gwaren is south of the country).

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

The player is forced into viewing Loghain through a black and white lens. Your first conversation about Ostagar is "why did Loghain abandon the field." The player doesn't have the opportunity to consider it a tactical retreat.

Because especially in a feudal view, abandoning the king's army is unthinkable, it's treason.  Then there is the fact that he's trying to blame the Wardens and kill you.  It rather does enforce a point of view.

Ferelden does not operate like most feudal systems. At least in Maric's head, Ferelden is much more important than its king and if he had to be sacrificed for it, then so be it.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The unrest in Denerim is mostly in the Alienage.
Unrest in Gwaren can be attributed to the hardships of war. The Warden had to deal with riots in Awakening too. Or due to Loghain seemingly abandonning the southern territories (Gwaren is south of the country).

Anora says all Denerim is in turmoil, and the templars at the Chantry talk about the high death toll and the Chantry being closed because of all the funerals.  In a time of war, there's going to be unrest no matter who the ruler is.  Regardless, it is obvious that the resistance to Loghain is not only among a few nobles.