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[Persephone]

Elhanan wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Okay then. Does Loghain commit evil acts in your view, or is he, himself, evil?

IMO; both.

When one does an act of evil, then that idividual is evil; guilty of the crime, sin, act, etc. Same goes for all.

Do I believe that Loghain has evil intent? No; not always, but the character is one that has allowed himself to be caught in the mire of his own hatred, and has chosen actions out of expediency and justification. he may or may not see them as evil any longer, but his POV is tainted thru his hatred of Orlais.

Do I believe in redemption? Yes. I believe in repentence, atonement, mercy, and love. I also believe in justice. As the Warden, we are allowed to be involved with the law of Ferelden, and as players, may choose how such justice is delivered.

I disagree with "doing something evil makes you evil". If that were so, we'd all be evil to an extent. I do not believe in rigid good vs. evil scenarios. But that's just me, I suppose.

[Elhanan]

Persephone wrote...
And Loghain had to deal with that vacuum for brains for Maker knows how long.

What does Isolde have to do with this? *bazinga*

[CalJones]

Addai67 wrote...

For those reading along, chapter four of The Arrangement is up.  This one is M for sexytime.  Not all chapters will be R rated, I promise.  Of course, some might be disappointed at that.  LOL

And with that, I think I'll stop spamming this thread with blatantly self-promoting chapter updates.  If you want to continue to follow it, ffnet does story update alerts or you could check the Community Creations thread.

Oh no, please feel free to spam links here.
You have an eager readership in this thread. (And I enjoyed this chapter, though I expect it wasn't the eaiest to write. You definitely write well).

[Persephone]

Elhanan wrote...

Persephone wrote...
And Loghain had to deal with that vacuum for brains for Maker knows how long.

What does Isolde have to do with this? *bazinga*

Egads, not her. The only Orlesian (by blood) we meet in the game and she makes me understand Loghain. Keep those idiots OUT! 

[Obadiah]

Addai67 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

From the toolset...

Cailan: I'm not even sure this is a true Blight. There are plenty of darkspawn on the field, but alas, we've seen no sign of an archdemon. (Dismissively. This game isn't as fun as he'd hoped.)
Duncan: Disappointed, your Majesty? (Wry. He's played the game before, and knows it's *never* fun)
Cailan: I'd hoped for a war like in the tales! A king riding with the fabled Grey Wardens against a tainted god! But I suppose this will have to do. (Light. He knows if he said this too strong, he'd look childish) I must go before Loghain sends out a search party. Farewell, Grey Wardens! (Satisfied. He's done his duty, and is only half-joking about the search party)

Wow, his VO notes make him look even worse than I'd thought. I do like the part about only be  half-joking about Loghain sending out a search party for him, though. And I think it's quite clear that Cailan DID want it to be a Blight because he's an idiot.

Wants a Blight?!  That would be more than just stupid, it would be evil.  I don't read the VO notes that way.  He's dismissing the darkspawn threat out of bravado, the way a military or athlete type would say "what, is that all you've got?"  Bravado is part of motivating soldiers, for one thing, though Cailan takes it too far. 

I agree. Cailin would have to be insane to want a Blight. If he was that was not my impression of him.

Addai67 wrote...
And let's not forget that Loghain also underestimates the danger they are in.

Did Loghain have another plan for the darkspawn attack, or did he just object to the King being on the front lines?

[Persephone]

CalJones wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

For those reading along, chapter four of The Arrangement is up.  This one is M for sexytime.  Not all chapters will be R rated, I promise.  Of course, some might be disappointed at that.  LOL

And with that, I think I'll stop spamming this thread with blatantly self-promoting chapter updates.  If you want to continue to follow it, ffnet does story update alerts or you could check the Community Creations thread.

Oh no, please feel free to spam links here.
You have an eager readership in this thread. (And I enjoyed this chapter, though I expect it wasn't the eaiest to write. You definitely write well).

Indeed, Addai. You better keep spamming links.

[Persephone]

Obadiah wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

From the toolset...

Cailan: I'm not even sure this is a true Blight. There are plenty of darkspawn on the field, but alas, we've seen no sign of an archdemon. (Dismissively. This game isn't as fun as he'd hoped.)
Duncan: Disappointed, your Majesty? (Wry. He's played the game before, and knows it's *never* fun)
Cailan: I'd hoped for a war like in the tales! A king riding with the fabled Grey Wardens against a tainted god! But I suppose this will have to do. (Light. He knows if he said this too strong, he'd look childish) I must go before Loghain sends out a search party. Farewell, Grey Wardens! (Satisfied. He's done his duty, and is only half-joking about the search party)

Wow, his VO notes make him look even worse than I'd thought. I do like the part about only be  half-joking about Loghain sending out a search party for him, though. And I think it's quite clear that Cailan DID want it to be a Blight because he's an idiot.

Wants a Blight?!  That would be more than just stupid, it would be evil.  I don't read the VO notes that way.  He's dismissing the darkspawn threat out of bravado, the way a military or athlete type would say "what, is that all you've got?"  Bravado is part of motivating soldiers, for one thing, though Cailan takes it too far. 

I agree. Cailin would have to be insane to want a Blight. If he was that was not my impression of him.

Addai67 wrote...
And let's not forget that Loghain also underestimates the danger they are in.

Did Loghain have another plan for the darkspawn attack, or did he just object to the King being on the front lines?

"But, ALAS, there's been no sign of an archdemon." (Cailan) Very clear, no? 

[phaonica]

Persephone wrote...

I disagree with "doing something evil makes you evil". If that were so, we'd all be evil to an extent. I do not believe in rigid good vs. evil scenarios. But that's just me, I suppose.

I don't, either. My definition of "evil" is pretty narrow. 

[Sarah1281]

If the Warden wasn't there, a lot more stuff would be going down besides survivor torture, and that alienage/slavery thing in the name of uniting Ferelden and keeping the Orlesians out.

...How do you figure that? I mean, without the Warden Ferelden would be doomed because no one else can kill the Archdemon but Loghain could be the nicest regent ever and that wouldn't change the fact that there's a Blight.



Look, I agree that Cailan has to be a crazy moron to want a Blight. His own dialogue insists that he does, never mind his VO notes that confirm it.

[Obadiah]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Obadiah wrote...
I think if a person A behaves a certain way for pragmatic only reasons, then person B cannot trust that A will change his mind and betray him for those same reasons. Allies have to trust each other. That can't happen if the one party has no integritry. Doesn't always work out that way.

Well I'd very much like for you to show me when an alliance has ever been established by trust alone.
It's based on mutual interest and not trust.
One can predict their allies based on internal and international politics, balance of power shifts...etc.

That's how politics works. Unconditional trust doesn't exist in politics. Integrity? Meh.

So what person B should do is make sure that he and person A can mutually assist each other, in other words give A incentives to not change his mind. Or person B can ally with person C to deter A.
And a whole list of things he should do.

Alliances are not made soley on trust, there is normally some mutually benefit if it is just not outright subjugation. However, there cannot be a mutual alliance without trust. There can be one, but it would be a paranoid one. There is no trust if one side will betray you for pragmatic reasons. One party has to be able to count on the other's word.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I didn't say every illegal act was evil. I judged Loghain's actions. I don't knwo why you're bringing this up if you don't want an ethical discussion.

I am not. You did.
You can believe what you want.

I did not. I said laws were indicative of right and wrong, not that they equated. Obviously legality does not equate to morality.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yes, I thought I was. Pragmatically, it makes more enemies. Sure, it might quell/scare them temporarily, but once those enemies have been made they'll pounce the first chance they get. Is your position that torture is right, merely that it is done, or useful?

The usefullness of torture depends heavily on the circumstances of its use. So I won't say that torture is absolutely uselful or useless. It depends on when, how and why.

If torture is useful and necessary, I won't see it as "evil".

I think it is an abhorent act. I think it is evil. Loghain didn't tell anyone the people that were caught were being tortured. The Warden had to spring them for anyone to find out. Deterrent failed.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Obadiah wrote...
Why do you think Loghain doesn't like doing them? Because his actions are dispicable by any measure, even his own - he knows he is doing something wrong, at least I hope so.

He can do something, feel it's necessary and not like doing it. There is no necessary corrolation between that and an ethical position. Anymore than there is a corrolation about a parent feeling bad about punishing a boy and thinking that what they did is "wrong".

Loghain says in the redeemer ending, "I've done so much wrong." I think he knows that what he did was wrong.

Obadiah wrote...
An act being pleasant or unpleasant has little to do with whether it's right or wrong.
Cutting the arm of a loved one to save them is unpleasant (aka won't give you pleasure). That doesn't make it wrong.

The difference there is the loved one probably agrees with you or forgives you eventually.

[Sarah1281]

Loghain says in the redeemer ending, "I've done so much wrong." I think he knows that what he did was wrong.

And I think that he's talking about the mistakes that he's made and that most of us are willing to admit that he made.

[Monica21]

Elhanan wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Okay then. Does Loghain commit evil acts in your view, or is he, himself, evil?

IMO; both.

When one does an act of evil, then that idividual is evil; guilty of the crime, sin, act, etc. Same goes for all.

Do I believe that Loghain has evil intent? No; not always, but the character is one that has allowed himself to be caught in the mire of his own hatred, and has chosen actions out of expediency and justification. he may or may not see them as evil any longer, but his POV is tainted thru his hatred of Orlais.

Do I believe in redemption? Yes. I believe in repentence, atonement, mercy, and love. I also believe in justice. As the Warden, we are allowed to be involved with the law of Ferelden, and as players, may choose how such justice is delivered.

And this is where I can't track the thinking anymore and conversation becomes "nuh uh" and "uh huh."

I don't think that people and their actions can be defined so simplistically. I also don't believe that one evil act makes one evil. If I lie to make something easier, am I evil, or is lying evil, or are their degrees of lying? What about telling an Alzheimer's patient who can't remember that her husband is dead that he'll be there soon? That's a lie, but it's to ease a pain.

As for justice, you are given the right to deliver justice, but you don't know the laws of Ferelden. None of us do. As I said, there's only one law that we know Loghain has broken and we don't know what the penalty for that is. And justice is not execution of the law. Justice in this sense is what your character decides and not what the law says. The laws of Ferelden have next to nothing to do with your decision at the Landsmeet.

[Addai]

CalJones wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

For those reading along, chapter four of The Arrangement is up.  This one is M for sexytime.  Not all chapters will be R rated, I promise.  Of course, some might be disappointed at that.  LOL

And with that, I think I'll stop spamming this thread with blatantly self-promoting chapter updates.  If you want to continue to follow it, ffnet does story update alerts or you could check the Community Creations thread.

Oh no, please feel free to spam links here.
You have an eager readership in this thread. (And I enjoyed this chapter, though I expect it wasn't the eaiest to write. You definitely write well).

Yes, I hate writing sex scenes.  LOL  There are a lot of pitfalls.

Glad you liked it and if you insist , I'll keep posting updates.

[Elhanan]

Persephone wrote...

I disagree with "doing something evil makes you evil". If that were so, we'd all be evil to an extent. I do not believe in rigid good vs. evil scenarios. But that's just me, I suppose.

This is not the place for a discussion of RL religion, but using myself only and my belief, I am Evil; guilty of my sins and crimes. The good news is that I have a great attorney, as he is also the judge, and has pardoned me of my guilt.

In the game, I am uncertain of the varied beliefs and religions, let alone of the truth of the higher powers used in the game. Thus I use what I know, and make the best decisions I can from the information I have for any particulkar character.

For Loghain, I always see him as guilty. As a precognative mage, I sense that allowing him to die later than the Landsmeet may be advantagious for the Warden. Then as a rule, the rest of my Warden's choose to administer justice there in Denerim.

[CalJones]

Zjarcal wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
It's possible that Cailan was masturbating to the letter and crumpled it in ecstasy. 
But I really don't see Anora doing this.

There's a mental image that I didn't want... :sick::sick::sick:

I can even picture the ending.... GLORIOUS!

Bwahahaha! You gave me my first laugh of the day (and it's not even 7am over here in Blighty). Poor Anora, I can just imagine their wedding night.

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Look, I agree that Cailan has to be a crazy moron to want a Blight. His own dialogue insists that he does, never mind his VO notes that confirm it.

Well for one, VO notes are meant as guide to the actor and not canon information.  Secondly, Ostagar was giving us a very limited view so that the player could make their own determination on what happened.  There was not a lot of god perspective on what was going on.  Which is good, really, since Buzz Warden the new recruit is not going to know what is going on, just rumors and impressions.  So I agree that you get that impression of Cailan, but I think it is meant to put doubt in your mind as to whether Loghain is justified or not in withdrawing.  If Cailan was "bigtime hero" without any faults, it wouldn't be as interesting a story setup.

I just put faith in the writers, however, that they don't create characters who are that plasticky and ridiculous.  They are more well-rounded than that.

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...

I just put faith in the writers, however, that they don't create characters who are that plasticky and ridiculous.  They are more well-rounded than that.

I think Cailan is rounded out just fine. He's not an idiot for no reason, or for comic relief, he's written as someone who thinks he has something to prove and a legend to live up to.

[Persephone]

Addai67 wrote...

CalJones wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

For those reading along, chapter four of The Arrangement is up.  This one is M for sexytime.  Not all chapters will be R rated, I promise.  Of course, some might be disappointed at that.  LOL

And with that, I think I'll stop spamming this thread with blatantly self-promoting chapter updates.  If you want to continue to follow it, ffnet does story update alerts or you could check the Community Creations thread.

Oh no, please feel free to spam links here.
You have an eager readership in this thread. (And I enjoyed this chapter, though I expect it wasn't the eaiest to write. You definitely write well).

Yes, I hate writing sex scenes.  LOL  There are a lot of pitfalls.

Glad you liked it and if you insist , I'll keep posting updates.

You wrote that very intimate moment VERY well. Not sleazy, yet still passionate and realistic.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Obadiah wrote...
Alliances are not made soley on trust, there is normally some mutually benefit if it is just not outright subjugation. However, there cannot be a mutual alliance without trust. There can be one, but it would be a paranoid one. There is no trust if one side will betray you for pragmatic reasons. One party has to be able to count on the other's word.

Give me examples of such an alliance. 
The only thing one party can do is trust that the ally has the same interests as you (thus no interests in betraying you). If they don't and your interests are opposed, then there is no alliance in the first place or it oulived its purpose.
Where does trust factor in?

If a country is too foolish to trust an "ally", when that said ally has an interest in back stabbing them, that would make them idiots.

An alliance is instrumental by definition and with clear goals. Once the alliance has no use, it's done.    

And if you think countries actually count on each other's words simply because it was given, then that's naive.  They need reasons to think that the ally will remain true to his word and that';s not trust, that's based on the ally benefitting from it as well.  

I think it is an abhorent act. I think it is evil. Loghain didn't tell anyone the people that were caught were being tortured. The Warden had to spring them for anyone to find out. Deterrent failed.

Good for you.
If you are referring to the noble, it's Howe's work. It's not even clear Loghain knew about it. I think all those in fort drakon are known to be there. And what he did to the hunters in Highever was known to all.

Loghain says in the redeemer ending, "I've done so much wrong." I think he knows that what he did was wrong.

I think he he was being emotional and referring to mistakes. And he does know he is guilty, he said war makes all parties guilty. 
Regardless, he can believe that he did wrong. I don't have to agree with him.

The difference there is the loved one probably agrees with you or forgives you eventually.

What if they don't? And you do it against their will?
What if Loghain succeeded. Wouldn't Ferelden forgive him?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 27 septembre 2010 - 06:01 .

[CalJones]

Oof I've finally caught up with the night's posts - it got busy in here didn't it?

I see Cailan as a young man desperate to fill his father's shoes. He's over excited at the Blight because, finally, he has a situation that allows him to do just that. I do think he has an over idealised view of the world (when Loghain tells him to attend to reality, I get the feeling it's not the first time he's said that) which proves his undoing. But I don't think being Maric the Saviour's son would be the easiest burden to bear.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ugh, I am so tired. I think I'll finally go to bed. Goodnight everyone!

[CalJones]

Night Knight! (I'm just starting my day...)

[phaonica]

CalJones wrote...

Oof I've finally caught up with the night's posts - it got busy in here didn't it?
I see Cailan as a young man desperate to fill his father's shoes. He's over excited at the Blight because, finally, he has a situation that allows him to do just that. I do think he has an over idealised view of the world (when Loghain tells him to attend to reality, I get the feeling it's not the first time he's said that) which proves his undoing. But I don't think being Maric the Saviour's son would be the easiest burden to bear.

Agreed. I do think that he wants a Blight. But I don't see it as evil. Misguided and insensitive, perhaps, but not evil.

[Obadiah]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Obadiah wrote...
Alliances are not made soley on trust, there is normally some mutually benefit if it is just not outright subjugation. However, there cannot be a mutual alliance without trust. There can be one, but it would be a paranoid one. There is no trust if one side will betray you for pragmatic reasons. One party has to be able to count on the other's word.

Give me examples of such an alliance. 
The only thing one party can do is trust that the ally has the same interests as you (thus no interests in betraying you). If they don't and your interests are opposed, then there is no alliance in the first place or it oulived its purpose.
Where does trust factor in?

If a country is too foolish to trust an "ally", when that said ally has an interest in back stabbing them, that would make them idiots.

An alliance is instrumental by definition and with clear goals. Once the alliance has no use, it's done.    

And if you think countries actually count on each other's words simply because it was given, then that's naive.  They need reasons to think that the ally will remain true to his word and that';s not trust, that's based on the ally benefitting from it as well.  

What about NATO. They have to trust that the other members will defend them if attacked. They have to trust that the others won't give away their military secrets, even if some countries are poorer than others and would benefit from such a secret deal. You don't think there is trust there based on integrity? Obviously it's not the ONLY factor, but do you think a country could join if their word couldn't be trusted?

Modifié par Obadiah, 27 septembre 2010 - 06:17 .

[Obadiah]

[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...
[quote]
I think it is an abhorent act. I think it is evil. Loghain didn't tell anyone the people that were caught were being tortured. The Warden had to spring them for anyone to find out. Deterrent failed.[/quote]

Good for you.
If you are referring to the noble, it's Howe's work. It's not even clear Loghain knew about it. I think all those in fort drakon are known to be there. And what he did to the hunters in Highever was known to all.
[/quote]
Is the fact that Howe was torturing people with the authority of Loghain supposed to absolve Loghain? Come on. Loghain is the Rejent, he was wasn't going to punish Howe even if he found out. He's guilty.

[quote]
The difference there is the loved one probably agrees with you or forgives you eventually.
[/quote]

What if they don't? And you do it against their will?
[/quote]
Then you'd have to be pretty sure of your righteousness in that situation. Specifically, in the case of selling elves to Tevinter to bolster his army and save the country, Loghain was wrong. He should have found another way.
[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...
What if Loghain succeeded. Wouldn't Ferelden forgive him?
[/quote]
I suspect that they'd live with it, and rewrite history in their shame. A lot of countries do that. They'd probably start by trying to say the elves were in league with Orlais or some such nonesense.