12857 réponses à ce sujet

[Monica21]

Wulfram wrote...

If you judge Loghain by the morals of Dragon Age Ferelden, then freeing a maleficar from the templars is probably his worst crime.

And people aren't judged by morals. They're judged by law, of which we know next to nothing about in Ferelden.

[CalJones]

What is it Caladrius says about trying to erode Loghain's support being akin to trying to wash away a mountain? I do wonder why people come in to a Loghain gush thread with the sole purpose of trying to prove what a bad, bad man he is. It must be like beating one's head against a breeze block.

[Elhanan]

From the Landsmeet, "We are discussing your crimes now". Seems the Warden may be lodging criminal accusations while at the Landsmeet. Fit your narrow parameters now?

As far as the other nits that some may wish to pick; just gonna stick to Loghain and DA.

[Monica21]

Elhanan wrote...

From the Landsmeet, "We are discussing your crimes now". Seems the Warden may be lodging criminal accusations while at the Landsmeet. Fit your narrow parameters now?
As far as the other nits that some may wish to pick; just gonna stick to Loghain and DA.

That is a dialogue option, but that's not why the Landsmeet was called.

As for nits to pick, I think that clearly identifying what a war crime is when one is throwing that accusation around is hardly unjustified. Apparently you don't think it's all that important and just want to stick to your guns, truth be damned.

[Elhanan]

The truth is available in the links provided, and of course I do not think that this is all that important cause this is a fictional character in a game. It is a great character, and one worth discussing.

What I do find troublsome is some admire said character, and this world has enough like him in it now.

And I joined this 'Gush' thread late because the discussions in others became so many PM's to others in the Forums.

Do I judge Loghain thru modern eyes? Perhaps, as this is where my eyes have been. I do not know the laws of Ferelden, nor do I wish to learn. Only thing I can fathom worse than an RPG rules lawyer is one that does it IG, too. So to me, and with my experiences, I see Loghain as a war criminal, and impose the sentence such merits, as available.

[Monica21]

Elhanan wrote...

The truth is available in the links provided, and of course I do not think that this is all that important cause this is a fictional character in a game. It is a great character, and one worth discussing.

It is important, because if you're going to use modern day terms to characterize a man in a medieval setting, then you need to understand those modern day terms. And since you're living in the modern day, it's not a bad idea to understand them in any case.

What I do find troublsome is some admire said character, and this world has enough like him in it now.

Really? Because I find far too many cowards in the world today. Loghain is not.

Do I judge Loghain thru modern eyes? Perhaps, as this is where my eyes have been. I do not know the laws of Ferelden, nor do I wish to learn. Only thing I can fathom worse than an RPG rules lawyer is one that does it IG, too. So to me, and with my experiences, I see Loghain as a war criminal, and impose the sentence such merits, as available.

Of course no one can stop you from judging him through modern eyes, but I still think it's a mistake. And again, if you're going to do that, you should trouble yourself to understand the terms. By saying you don't wish to know the laws of Ferelden you're saying that you're content to continue judging him by your personal moral standard and words you don't understand. Basically, you're content with your own ignorance. Indeed, you are certainly not a lawyer.

You have your own personal view on what a war criminal is now, do you? That's handy.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Obadiah wrote...
I think that an agreement to send an army and potentially scrifice them because an ally was invaded does depend on trust. A lot of it actually. Especially if a smaller weaker nation is invaded, and it might just be more pragmatic for the alliance to just cut them loose.

Since NATO was built with the strategy of containement and later on roll back, then no, cutting even weak allies loose won't help. Especially when said ally can turn to the Eastern bloc as an altenative.

NATO exists without trust. Who is foolish enough to trust that the USA won't deal with them if they go against its interests?
In fact, we have seen the USA threaten Britain with economic collapse in the 1956 war, because Britain was going against American interests.

Aside from me just thinking that they were morally wrong, pagmatically the basic problem with Loghain's actions at Ostagar is that after that, no one would want to trust him with protecting them. This is part of the reason why he can't rally them. He is just untrustworthy, and so he and Howe keep trying to suppress the truth.

I have nothing against pragmatism - I have a problem with torture and needless death. Of course it can be justified - it can always justified, especially if the person doing it wins and they write history. It shouldn't be done, and Loghain didn't have to do what he did.

It seems like the popular arguement is to tear down politicians in the US. I think that is just a tactic used by some (their "allies" or "other interested parties") to rally support or get power. In truth I think politicians themselves are mostly truthful and honest - some of them are just wrong. No need for me to bismerch their integrity as well.

Half the nation sided with Loghain. Only the bannorn think they can't be protected by him. And the other side leaves him once it's clear that you can do a better job.

I don't see Loghain committing needless torture and deaths.

I am not American.
And you think politicians are honest? Yea, no common ground to discuss this at all then.
As a political sicence student, I can safetly tell you that politics has nothing to do with honesty and integrity (just the appearance of being that), regardless if invididuals think that they are those things.

Loghain is many things, stupid is not one of them. I think he knew what Howe was doing, maybe he didn't ask specifics so he could maintain some deniability, maybe he just didn't want to deal with Howe, but I think that makes Loghain responsible for his actions. If he had dealt with Howe, and stood up for what was right, I think some of the Banns would have been more ready to trust and ally with him.

How do you know? The bannorn revolted despite not knowing what Howe was doing. Yes, Loghain is not stupid. Certainly not stupid enough to turn against Howe, the one who controls Amaranthine, Highever and Denerim, making him an enemy, because some banns *might* join him.

Well, I don't believe that. Righteousness can rally a population and get one allies. It can get one friends as well, which is kind of nice. I'd rather do that that force them or rely on mutual benefit. That's just a statement of principle, and perhaps if faced with the decision that Loghain was I might think different. I hope not - certainly I hope my "ally" doesn't.

Then politics is evidently not for you.
And further discussion of this subject is pointless. 

Even the most idealist paradigms (such as neo-liberalism) admit that it's all based on mutual interest.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 27 septembre 2010 - 04:18 .

[Giggles_Manically]

MariSkep wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

What I do find troublsome is some admire said character, and this world has enough like him in it now.

Really? Because I find far too many cowards in the world today. Loghain is not.

Yes, let's add more meaningless words to the mix. How's about honor and commitment, hm? That sounds awfully nice.

To what a bimbo of a king? 

[Monica21]

MariSkep wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

What I do find troublsome is some admire said character, and this world has enough like him in it now.

Really? Because I find far too many cowards in the world today. Loghain is not.

Yes, let's add more meaningless words to the mix. How's about honor and commitment, hm? That sounds awfully nice.

If you really want, I can get into it more, but I don't think you do. That said, it's better than throwing around words like "war criminal" when you admit that you have no idea what they mean and don't really care.

[Giggles_Manically]

MariSkep wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

MariSkep wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

What I do find troublsome is some admire said character, and this world has enough like him in it now.

Really? Because I find far too many cowards in the world today. Loghain is not.

Yes, let's add more meaningless words to the mix. How's about honor and commitment, hm? That sounds awfully nice.

To what a bimbo of a king? 

It was just a small joke for my own amusement. It really didn't have anything to do with Loghain or Cailan.

My cynicism tends to get the better of me.

Ah so you were just trolling then?

[KnightofPhoenix]

MariSkep wrote...
Spamming actually, which you're more then welcome to report.

Then why are you here? Since you have nothing more to add except spamming.

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

MariSkep wrote...
Spamming actually, which you're more then welcome to report.

Then why are you here? Since you have nothing more to add except spamming.

Trolls gonna troll KoP.
Best to let him marinate in his supposed victory and ignore him.

[KnightofPhoenix]

MariSkep wrote...
I had 40 minutes to kill and then noticed a reference to 'courage' as an admirable trait. But my 40 minutes are up. 

Good. Next time, kill them somewhere else.

[Zjarcal]

Hey, if he's inviting us to report him, who are we to deny him?

[Sarah1281]

Elhanan wrote...

From the Landsmeet, "We are discussing your crimes now". Seems the Warden may be lodging criminal accusations while at the Landsmeet. Fit your narrow parameters now?
As far as the other nits that some may wish to pick; just gonna stick to Loghain and DA.

Yeah, that's when you're trying to deflect attention away from that whole Anora situation since you broke into Howe's estate, Loghain's claiming you kidnapped her, and she's nowhere to be seen. Plus calling it 'crimes' makes it sound worse than 'we're talking about your actions' and does in no way mean that you're lodging criminal accusations. That's a job for a senechal not a Landsmeet. If you'll notice, Loghain says that instead of killing Howe you should have brought him before the senechal NOT the Landsmeet. Granted, Loghain didn't appear to be planning on doing that but that's still how crimes are judged.

[Elhanan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

From the Landsmeet, "We are discussing your crimes now". Seems the Warden may be lodging criminal accusations while at the Landsmeet. Fit your narrow parameters now?
As far as the other nits that some may wish to pick; just gonna stick to Loghain and DA.

Yeah, that's when you're trying to deflect attention away from that whole Anora situation since you broke into Howe's estate, Loghain's claiming you kidnapped her, and she's nowhere to be seen. Plus calling it 'crimes' makes it sound worse than 'we're talking about your actions' and does in no way mean that you're lodging criminal accusations. That's a job for a senechal not a Landsmeet. If you'll notice, Loghain says that instead of killing Howe you should have brought him before the senechal NOT the Landsmeet. Granted, Loghain didn't appear to be planning on doing that but that's still how crimes are judged.

Generally, I simply mention that I rescued her, and Anora reveals herself and blames her Father. Sometimes, she reveals herself to be as truthful as Loghain, and blames the Warden. In either case, Loghain is met in a duel, and rarely walks away.

As far as Howe and Cauthrian are concerned, Loghain was fully aware of much of their crimes, and bears the responsibility as an accomplice to their trangressions. And in front of witnesses, he pays for said crimes most of the time right then and there..

[Sarah1281]

I think we've all learned something here. The people who thought that Loghain was evil and deserved to die a couple of weeks ago still think that and the ones who feel that maybe there might have been some sort of mitigating factors involved or that Loghain might have been right to do what he did in certain instances still feel that way. This was truly very productive.

[Monica21]

Elhanan wrote...
Generally, I simply mention that I rescued her, and Anora reveals herself and blames her Father. Sometimes, she reveals herself to be as truthful as Loghain, and blames the Warden. In either case, Loghain is met in a duel, and rarely walks away.

As far as Howe and Cauthrian are concerned, Loghain was fully aware of much of their crimes, and bears the responsibility as an accomplice to their trangressions. And in front of witnesses, he pays for said crimes most of the time right then and there..

You either missed or ignored the point of Sarah's post. Willful ignorance is a less admirable trait than you may realize.

As for Howe, the only thing you know he was aware of was Highever. The rest you don't. And I'm missing whatever crime it was that Cauthrien committed. You keep confusing your legal terms too. That's not what an accomplice is.

[Elhanan]

In Howe's case, Loghain was responsible for every action since Highever, as his continued rewards kept growing. And Cauthrian was complicit in the events at Ostagar, as well as any related crimes since that occasion.

And accomplice must mean, 'sliced deli thin', since that is what both of them are by the time of the Landsmeet.

[CalJones]