12857 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Aww sorry DragonLancer :/

And don't worry TJPags. Everything will go back to normal soon enough.

[TJPags]

Okay, I'll keep my eyes open for intelligent discussion.



And keep my eyes closed to Loghain pics . . . .

[Persephone]

TJPags wrote...

Wow, this went all crazy after I left, I see.

So, is this now officially a "gush" thread? Because, ummm . . yea, no WAY I belong in a Loghain gush thread.

*Snerks* We were gushing/crying over that cut dialogue I posted.

[TJPags]

Persephone wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Wow, this went all crazy after I left, I see.

So, is this now officially a "gush" thread? Because, ummm . . yea, no WAY I belong in a Loghain gush thread.

*Snerks* We were gushing/crying over that cut dialogue I posted.

I saw that.  Nice sentiment there . . I think every kid wants to hear that kind of thing from their parents.

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
I saw that.  Nice sentiment there . . I think every kid wants to hear that kind of thing from their parents.

I don't know if you are being sarcastic, because Loghain is all cold. But for someone who knows Loghain intimately, like Anora, it might mean a lot that otherwise wouldn't to someone who doesn't know him.

My dad for instance is very similar to Loghain in the sense he never said to me or any of my siblings "I love you" outright. He has his own ways to convey that and we, being his children, understand it and it does mean a lot to us.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 28 septembre 2010 - 01:00 .

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
I saw that.  Nice sentiment there . . I think every kid wants to hear that kind of thing from their parents.

I don't know if you are being sarcastic, because Loghain is all cold. But for someone who knows Loghain intimately, it might mean a lot that otherwise wouldn't to someone who doesn't know him.

My dad for instance is very similar to Loghain in the sense he never said to me or any of my siblings "I love you" outright. He has his own ways to convey that and we, being his children, understand it and it does mean a lot to us.

I was not being sarcastic at all, I promise you.  Is your opinion of me that low? 

My parents were not very verbally demonstative either, and I worked hard for every "good job" I ever got.  I do think kids, even when grown, want to hear something like that, even if love is shown in other ways, and perhaps especially if their parents were more distant.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I apologise TJPags.

And yea I agree with what you said fully.

[TJPags]

No need to apologize.

I mean, I think the guys a criminal, but I can still recogonize when he does something cool. 

Modifié par TJPags, 28 septembre 2010 - 01:17 .

[Obadiah]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Since NATO was built with the strategy of containement and later on roll back, then no, cutting even weak allies loose won't help. Especially when said ally can turn to the Eastern bloc as an altenative.

NATO exists without trust. Who is foolish enough to trust that the USA won't deal with them if they go against its interests?
In fact, we have seen the USA threaten Britain with economic collapse in the 1956 war, because Britain was going against American interests.

Cutting an ally could help. The alliance may just think it is a waster of resources to defend them, and it may be able to portray them as an example of what happens to belligerant members(truthful or not) to keep others in line. Countries didn't exactly flourish under USSR or Russia.

The US can only deal with betrayers if it finds out about them. A small poorer country may have more mitigating circumstances to consider (like starvation, or freezing to death) when considering whether to secretly betraying the US. I thinjk it is obvious that the US has to trust that countries will not betray them if it is suddenly in their better interest. Circumstances change very quickly.

Clearly I see trust where you don't.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Half the nation sided with Loghain. Only the bannorn think they can't be protected by him. And the other side leaves him once it's clear that you can do a better job.

I don't see Loghain committing needless torture and deaths.

I am not American.
And you think politicians are honest? Yea, no common ground to discuss this at all then.
As a political sicence student, I can safetly tell you that politics has nothing to do with honesty and integrity (just the appearance of being that), regardless if invididuals think that they are those things.

Loghain is many things, stupid is not one of them. I think he knew what Howe was doing, maybe he didn't ask specifics so he could maintain some deniability, maybe he just didn't want to deal with Howe, but I think that makes Loghain responsible for his actions. If he had dealt with Howe, and stood up for what was right, I think some of the Banns would have been more ready to trust and ally with him.

How do you know? The bannorn revolted despite not knowing what Howe was doing. Yes, Loghain is not stupid. Certainly not stupid enough to turn against Howe, the one who controls Amaranthine, Highever and Denerim, making him an enemy, because some banns *might* join him.

The Bann's *might* join him? First, I don't believe that Loghain's retreat at Ostagar was a strategic reteat, I think it was cold blooded murder.

But let's assume for the sake of argument that it was an honorable strategic retreat.

The Banns revolted because Loghain tried to assume power with rumors abounding that he had let the King die. Their allegiance was to themselves and the Therin line, not Loghain. However, Loghain was a war hero. Everyone knew who he was and what he had done for Ferelden. The man did not lack in popular support. He's Loghain: the common bandit/poacher/rebel raised to Teryn. The man literally had an entire army that even when faced with death couldn't shut up about how Loghain had saved them at Ostagar. Even with the rumors, half the leaders were on his side. The only reason the Warden is even kept constantly at odds with Loghain is that Loghain's men keep trying to kill him. This is completely unecessary since they theoritically have the same goal.

If Loghain had come out after Ostagar from the start and said, "I am sorry my friends. The darkspawn were too much, the battle was lost and I had to retreat lest we lose all our forces. I welcome what survivors there are to aid us in this hour of crisis (hint: that means the Grey Warden) because we need all the soldiers we can get, and we need to unite for the coming Blight." He would have been a much more compelling regent, and probably swayed the other half of the Banns outright.

Instead Loghain does what he does which alienates most everyone except that snake Howe when all of his and Howe's actions come to light. And make no mistake, those secrets of his and Howe's would not survived for long - there were too many people that knew about them. Even if Loghain didn't get killed by Howe in another of his friendly visit power grabs, if the Blight was won Ferelden was headed into civil war once the truth came out anyway.

Howe controlled Highever, Denerim, and Amaranthine with one army meant for Amaranthine alone, now stretched because of it's overextended deployment and filled with untrained recruits. Howe could have been dealt with for his crimes (yes, I'm pretty sure that at least attacking Highever as Howe did was a crime by any measure in Ferelden - I believe "butchered" was Loghain's characterization of such an act). The Warden certainly does it, and still manages to stop the Blight. That would have only bolstered Loghain's support, since by all accounts the Couslands were popular, and it would have shown the other Banns and Arls that Loghain was willing to defend them. When Teagan says, "Did he also do what was best for your husband?" that is trust gone - Ferelden alliance in jeapardy.

Now, suppression of facts (to his own daughter no less - yeah, I'm sure his retreat was "strategic"), lack of remorse (shows up in a conversation with Wynne and at the end of a conversation at one dialog option in the Landsmeet - too little too late), demands (not requests) of support, assassination plots, poisoning and torture of nobles, and slavery, that is supposed to be effective leadership, or even a sequence of mildy good ideas?

After Ostagar Loghain's hand was not forced. He made the choice to alienate the Wardens and force the nobles to follow him using brutal and repressive tactics, rather than attempt to convince them and win support. I see cruelty, needless torture and needless death in his actions. Loghain's actions were unnecessary and driven by his stubborn pride.

That is why I think Loghain is evil.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Well, I don't believe that. Righteousness can rally a population and get one allies. It can get one friends as well, which is kind of nice. I'd rather do that that force them or rely on mutual benefit. That's just a statement of principle, and perhaps if faced with the decision that Loghain was I might think different. I hope not - certainly I hope my "ally" doesn't.

Then politics is evidently not for you.
And further discussion of this subject is pointless.

Even the most idealist paradigms (such as neo-liberalism) admit that it's all based on mutual interest.

Well boo...

Modifié par Obadiah, 28 septembre 2010 - 02:20 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Obadiah wrote...
Cutting an ally could help. The alliance may just think it is a waster of resources to defend them, and it may be able to portray them as an example of what happens to belligerant members(truthful or not) to keep others in line. Countries didn't exactly flourish under USSR or Russia.

If it's a waste of ressource to protect them, then what's the point of allying with them or keep allying wiht them?
Why would you expect nations to go against common sense and help a country they have no interest in helping? Give me an example of a real life alliance that risked everything for an inconsequential country (you wouldn't find any, as there would be no alliance in the first place if the country is inconsequential to them).

Obadiah wrote...
The US can only deal with betrayers if it finds out about them. A small poorer country may have more mitigating circumstances to consider (like starvation, or freezing to death) when considering whether to secretly betraying the US. I thinjk it is obvious that the US has to trust that countries will not betray them if it is suddenly in their better interest. Circumstances change very quickly.

The USA provides economic benefits to shut them up. Point moot.
And they know how to pick their allies. Almost all of their regimes are anti-communist, hence the forceful removal of many pro-communist (or socialist) regimes within their sphere of influence.

So the domestic regimes have no interest in selling out the USA in favor of the USSR (who can provide much more economic benefits than the USSR), as this would pose a threat to their own domestic system.

This is completely unecessary since they theoritically have the same goal.

No, they don't. Loghain thinks the Wardens are Orlesian agents. And doesn't think they are necessary.

Obadiah wrote...
If Loghain had come out after Ostagar from the start and said, "I am sorry my friends. The darkspawn were too much, the battle was lost and I had to retreat lest we lose all our forces. I welcome what survivors there are to aid us in this hour of crisis (hint: that means the Grey Warden) because we need all the soldiers we can get, and we need to unite for the coming Blight." He would have been a much more compelling regent, and probably swayed the other half of the Banns outright.

Except that Ostagar was not really the issue (it was the spark). The issue was "The bannorn will not bow to you simply because you demand it" and because "the civil war brought many old grudges to a boil". And I think we all agreed that he handled it wrong.
But it would make little sense for him to welcome the Wardens back if he thinks they are part of an Orlesian plot and if he needs scapegoats.

Obadiah wrote...
if the Blight was won Ferelden was headed into civil war once the truth came out anyway.

Or they would be grateful to Loghain and not be able to do sh*t. He would be the savior of Ferelden again and other than a few insignificant banns, I think most would fall back in line, especially since the bannorn would be devastated by the Blight (because they are so stupid they'd rather fight Loghain). So this is pure speculation with no evidence.

Obadiah wrote...
The Warden certainly does it, and still manages to stop the Blight. That would have only bolstered Loghain's support, since by all accounts the Couslands were popular, and it would have shown the other Banns and Arls that Loghain was willing to defend them. When Teagan says, "Did he also do what was best for your husband?" that is trust gone - Ferelden alliance in jeapardy.

The Warden does not do anything against Howe expect when you murder him in his home.
And so you suggest that Loghain could have been able to fight Howe while simultaneously fight off the Bannorn, because of some belief that the bannorn would shut up and follow him when he does it. When it's clear that the rebel sergeant said that they will not be taking orders from Denerim (he did not specify Loghain). Maybe you should read about the Bannorn more and you will find out that they are not a force attracted by "rigtheousness". They constantly fight each other over small acres of land because they think they are important. Loghain's only mistake was in uniting them against him. 

Furthermore, the bannorn does not know about what Howe did to the Couslands. There are small rumours that are to be expected in such a chaotic environement. But no one *knows*.

Obadiah wrote...
 He made the choice to alienate the Wardens and force the nobles to follow him using brutal and repressive tactics, rather than attempt to convince them and win support.

A political mistake, for sure. Not one that deserves execution, imo.
As for the Wardens, like I said, he didn't know they were necessary and he suspected they were dealing with Celene. Which wouldn't be too far off from the truth as we know that the First warden has a political agenda and that the Orlesian WArden commander was in the Imperial court.

That is why I think Loghain is evil.

Good for you.

Well boo...

No offense, but I am discussing from a Neo-classical Realist perspective and you are arguing with a paradigm that doesn't exist in Political Science literrature,  and so we don't agree on the same premise, as such discussion is useless.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 28 septembre 2010 - 01:41 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Kittens, baby wolves, rats eating cream, and cut Loggy dialogue?

Is this a ploy to make me get in touch with my softer side? because it isn't working!

........awwwww! Kitteh!:wub::wub:

[CalJones]

I thought this was a gush thread. I know it didn't start out as one but it became one, barring the odd invasion from the haters.

[DragonRacer13]

CalJones wrote...

I thought this was a gush thread. I know it didn't start out as one but it became one, barring the odd invasion from the haters.

I second this. Thought it started out as a positive thread that turned into yet another Loghain debate thread, that we then took over as a gush thread and have had to fend off the occasional re-emergence of the debate thread mentality.

Just my perspective, though.

[CalJones]

Perhaps we need to dig a moat and set up Mabari patrols, no?

[Morwen Eledhwen]

I thought it was general gush/love/respect with occasional forays into both debate and outright squee.

[DragonRacer13]

CalJones wrote...

Perhaps we need to dig a moat and set up Mabari patrols, no?

But there aren't that many of us, so it is a small camp. Wouldn't digging a moat make it a bit difficult to pitch tents?

(And no, I was physically incapable of resisting that comment...  )

[CalJones]

Hee hee!

[flexxdk]

CalJones wrote...

I thought this was a gush thread. I know it didn't start out as one but it became one, barring the odd invasion from the haters.

Fun fact is that I WAS a hater... until I spared Loghain.

Loghain's a nice guy once you get to know him.

[Elhanan]

Whacka wrote...

Fun fact is that I WAS a hater... until I spared Loghain.

Loghain's a nice guy once you get to know him.

Somewhat agree; nice that he steps in to take the last hit on Archie anyway.

[CalJones]

He has got a sense of humour, at least. He's a funny guy, if you're not an ass to him.

[phaonica]

I think it's an all purpose appreciation thread, for gushing and discussion both. I don't want to encourage trolls, but I don't want to run off a good debate, either.

[Monica21]

phaonica wrote...

I think it's an all purpose appreciation thread, for gushing and discussion both. I don't want to encourage trolls, but I don't want to run off a good debate, either.

Agreed. Emphasis on good debate though.

[Giggles_Manically]

Monica21 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

I think it's an all purpose appreciation thread, for gushing and discussion both. I don't want to encourage trolls, but I don't want to run off a good debate, either.

Agreed. Emphasis on good debate though.

I agree, a good -
ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL!

Loghain left Calian to die OMG!!



Sorry, that happens sometimes.

[CalJones]

Yeah I don't mind well-mannered debate, but certain people don't seem to grasp the well-mannered part.

[KnightofPhoenix]

CalJones wrote...

He has got a sense of humour, at least. He's a funny guy, if you're not an ass to him.

He's actually very funny. Almost like Sten, except more...human.