12857 réponses à ce sujet

[Monica21]

Zjarcal wrote...
"Support the KoP minion army" maybe with a silhouette of a bunch of people on the background.

I like that one. Like the DA2 ads, but with KoP instead of Hawke. And I like Cal's too.  *thumbs up*

[DragonRacer13]

Awesome banner...! *steals*

[Costin_Razvan]

Zjarcal, Phaonica: Ty.

You/your Warden has every right to decide that Loghain deserves execution. That's what the game wants you to do, in a way.

And in that regard I consider the game shallow. Even as Mary Kirby put it ( you don't have to be completely insane to spare Loghain's life ), apparently there is some insanity in sparing man's life? Seriously? I tire of the Western BS.

[Elhanan]

Shallow? To have a partial conclusion to one of the primary characters that took you possibly 40 hrs to reach? I have to disagree.While I kill Loghain most of the time, neither his character, the landsmeet, nor the varied tales of the warden can be defined accurately as shallow.

Now politics as a whole is another matter. But even here, I am more intrigued with ther workings of this game than most other settings seen in the past.

[Persephone]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Zjarcal, Phaonica: Ty.

You/your Warden has every right to decide that Loghain deserves execution. That's what the game wants you to do, in a way.

And in that regard I consider the game shallow. Even as Mary Kirby put it ( you don't have to be completely insane to spare Loghain's life ), apparently there is some insanity in sparing man's life? Seriously? I tire of the Western BS.

I hear you and I agree. Brilliant men like Caesar have used clemency to their advantage. Actually, sparing your enemies often makes more sense than slaughtering them. Even if it's just for the reason Sten mentions: Don't waste resources, none are are as precious as lives.

Some of my Wardens, including Couslands, would have spared Howe and conscripted them. AH, the banter and dialogue options! (And hey, it's Tim Curry!) 

[CalJones]

I'll agree. It's not like deciding whether to save Kaiden or Ashley on Virmire in ME - both had been with you from the first mission and so it's a real gut-churner of a choice.

Choosing between Alistair and Loghain is completely different. One is either your buddy or your lover and has been with you from the start. The other is the antagonist - a man whose various hirelings have been trying to kill you from the get go. The fact that he is a deep and fabulously nuanced character is lost on most people. The dice are loaded heavily against him.

Edit: double ninja'd. I was replying to Costin's post.

Modifié par CalJones, 04 octobre 2010 - 11:17 .

[Persephone]

CalJones wrote...

I'll agree. It's not like deciding whether to save Kaiden or Ashley on Virmire in ME - both had been with you from the first mission and so it's a real gut-churner of a choice.

Choosing between Alistair and Loghain is completely different. One is either your buddy or your lover and has been with you from the start. The other is the antagonist - a man whose various hirelings have been trying to kill you from the get go. The fact that he is a deep and fabulously nuanced character is lost on most people. The dice are loaded heavily against him.

Edit: double ninja'd. I was replying to Costin's post.

Oh God, Virmire. That is about the most gutwrenching decision Bioware ever forced upon me. When my Fem Shep abandoned Kaidan (Whom she was romancing) ,,,,,,,I cried. That music afterwards....(Their love theme) GAH!

Loghain is, in my opinion, way more interesting than the version of Alistair Bioware gave us. (I much prefer their original idea but yeah...) Alistair's easy to like. He'll yell at you but backs off far too easily. :innocent:

[Costin_Razvan]

Shallow? To have a partial conclusion to one of the primary characters that took you possibly 40 hrs to reach?

What is shallow is that the game does not present you with any ocassion before the Landsmeet where your PC can lay down their thoughts if they want to spare Loghain as every single line of dialogue before that is for killing him.



So yes, it's just the usual western BS about executing people and not understanding the concept of mercy.

[Persephone]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Shallow? To have a partial conclusion to one of the primary characters that took you possibly 40 hrs to reach?

What is shallow is that the game does not present you with any ocassion before the Landsmeet where your PC can lay down their thoughts if they want to spare Loghain as every single line of dialogue before that is for killing him.

So yes, it's just the usual western BS about executing people and not understanding the concept of mercy.

There are two very obscure dialogue options in that regard: One is at Redcliffe once Eamon is ready to call in the Landsmeet. It goes "And what if we supported Loghain...." (Paraphrased) and the other is the "If you really want to save this land, fight with us!" to Loghain line at Eamon's estate.

[CalJones]

Yup and that's it. There's no positive come back to Alistair's "why would Loghain do this?" after the battle (such as, "we were late with the beacon, perhaps the battle was already lost" or somesuch), or to any of his other anti-Loghain diatribes.

Admittedly, finding out you have a price on your head at Lothering doesn't pain Loghain in the most positive light, but you know what? When you encounter those soldiers in the tavern, I'd have loved for one of the messages you could send back to Loghain to be "I'm not your enemy."

[Sarah1281]

CalJones wrote...

I'll agree. It's not like deciding whether to save Kaiden or Ashley on Virmire in ME - both had been with you from the first mission and so it's a real gut-churner of a choice.

Choosing between Alistair and Loghain is completely different. One is either your buddy or your lover and has been with you from the start. The other is the antagonist - a man whose various hirelings have been trying to kill you from the get go. The fact that he is a deep and fabulously nuanced character is lost on most people. The dice are loaded heavily against him.

Edit: double ninja'd. I was replying to Costin's post.

I found Virmire a much more difficult decision (my Earth-born Akuze Shepard actually let Kaidan die even though she was romancing him because Ashley had a huge family that she didn't want to destroy and he was alone like her and didn't that screw her up) than Loghain vs. Alistair if only because Alistair always ends up ruling with Anora and so it's not like anything bad happens to him except he has to live with the fact that someone he hates is alive, hates you now, and feels guilty about not being at the final battle.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Persephone wrote...
There are two very obscure dialogue options in that regard: One is at Redcliffe once Eamon is ready to call in the Landsmeet. It goes "And what if we supported Loghain...." (Paraphrased) and the other is the "If you really want to save this land, fight with us!" to Loghain line at Eamon's estate.

You can also tell Anora that you'd rather have him live.

Too bad we can't discuss this with Alistair, though I doubt it would actually be a discussion. More shouting I guess.

[CalJones]

Funny, Sarah - I very much like Ash as a character (I know some people dismiss her as a racist, but she has her reasons for distrusting non-humans, as much as Loghain has his for distrusting the Orlesians) but I usually save Kaiden, even if I'm romancing her. My reasons are more pragmatic - Kaiden outranks Ashley, and as a biotic, he is more valuable. It pains me to do it but that's what I'd do in real life.

I do have one Shepard who saved her and remained true to her in ME2. I liked her enough for that.

And that's pretty much how I feel, KoP - but at least a pre-Landsmeet shouting match would have meant Anora's new husband not looking like a complete jackass in front of the assembled Fereldan nobility.

[Sarah1281]

CalJones wrote...

Funny, Sarah - I very much like Ash as a character (I know some people dismiss her as a racist, but she has her reasons for distrusting non-humans, as much as Loghain has his for distrusting the Orlesians) but I usually save Kaiden, even if I'm romancing her. My reasons are more pragmatic - Kaiden outranks Ashley, and as a biotic, he is more valuable. It pains me to do it but that's what I'd do in real life.
I do have one Shepard who saved her and remained true to her in ME2. I liked her enough for that.

I usually save Kaidan. That was just my severely psychologically damaged Shepard.

[KnightofPhoenix]

CalJones wrote...
And that's pretty much how I feel, KoP - but at least a pre-Landsmeet shouting match would have meant Anora's new husband not looking like a complete jackass in front of the assembled Fereldan nobility.

Not sure if it would have helped much, but yes we should definitely have had the option to give him a heads up.

[Elhanan]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

What is shallow is that the game does not present you with any ocassion before the Landsmeet where your PC can lay down their thoughts if they want to spare Loghain as every single line of dialogue before that is for killing him.

So yes, it's just the usual western BS about executing people and not understanding the concept of mercy.

Culturally, I see this as a global/world issue; not West vs East. Too many possible examples of man's inhumanity overall to start up division here.

But as the game follows thru the life of the Warden for the most part, why would anything besides the occasional codex entry be introduced for a character known to us as the villain? For those that desire to show mercy, you are given a little info by Anora prior to the event, and there at the Landsmeet the basics of why this would be an option at all. If we had received the info made available post-Landsmeet, it would have weakened the revelation of what Loghain once was, and possibly spoiled one of the finer pieces of writing in the game, IMO.

[Costin_Razvan]

It's **** writing as it is, for you who kill Loghain it might good, for us that do spare him...well it's another situation.

As for Loghain being a villain, believe that if you will. But the reality is that he is a secondary antagonist who is doing what he thinks is right. The main antagonist is the Archdemon period, regardless of what some people here might to think, and that's ****** poor writing on Bioware's part in my opinion.

In fact I would go even further and say that I am not impressed by the over arching plot of Dragon Age Origins, I have seen it all done before. What stands out however are your relationships with your companions and some of the Origin stories.

For me personally I really didn't have a good reason to want Loghain. What that he outlawed the Grey Wardens? Hardly a compelling reason after Bhelen ( was playing a DN ) had just played me and Trian to kill each other and then had me exiled, and then I placed Bhelen on the throne without a doubt.

That he sent assassins after me? Nope, not a good reason for me to kill him as I was being forced by the game to become his foe, and I understand why he did it ( I am simply stating my personal opinion that I had on my first playthrough here ).

That he left at Ostagar thus resulting in Duncan's and Cailan's deaths? Could hardly CARE for either Duncan or that idiotic "GLORIOUS" Cailan.

That he sold elves in slavery? I don't care for them either, and I would have done it myself if I had been in Loghain's shoes. That he allied Howe? Seriously? I didn't even know who Howe was exactly before I entered Denerim, let alone that he massacred the Couslands. Killing Howe was a "what?!" moment for me. I seriously had no reason to want to kill Howe, even if I had wanted Loghain dead why should I want to kill a man just for allying the Regent when other nobles have as well? Or should I perhaps want Sighard, Wulf, Alfansa dead as well?

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 04 octobre 2010 - 03:08 .

[Elhanan]

As I played both Dwarven Origins as well, I guess it is a matter of listening to the information you are given, I knew that Howe had taken his new position in Highever, and over the Alienage, plus another if I remember correctly. And if you are playing a character that is as forgiving as your brother Bhelen, and did not kill Howe, you are one that does not learn from hard lessons.

But we could argue over RP differences all week long, and go nowhere. But I found the writing for Loghain to be some of the best CRPG tale telling to date. You may not like it for whatever reasons, but I believe it is pure gold.

[Costin_Razvan]

Oh, so it's all personal game for you? People who make Bhelen king are naive fools I take it?



Excuse me there, but I do not care much for personal revenge. ( To copy a favorite quote from Kpax: The expression an eye for an eye is known throughout the Universe for it's stupidity ) If Bhelen was indeed going to make the situation worse for Orzammar then I would have killed him, but since he is driven by the desire to make it better ( and for personal power ) then I place him as a king.



As for Howe, regardless of what is said as rumors in game. Why should I CARE for the Couslands and the Alienage as a Dwarf Noble?

[CalJones]

Meeting Howe as a non-HN is about as perplexing as a non-dwarf being asked to pick a king in Orzammar.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I don't think there is anything wrong with the writing when it comes to Loghain. Just like in real life, we can't know everything and we can only settle with stories and what we personally perceive. As it stands, I think the game offers enough reasons to spare him, I didn't have to think a lot about the choice it was easy.

And while yes, I only rarely had the opportunity to tell Alistair and others that, I also had the option to not agree with him / them and just move on. Which is what I would do, I didnt' cae about convincing him before the Landsmeet.

[Costin_Razvan]

I didn't have to think a lot about the choice it was easy.

For me as well.



I take it you were interested in preserving stability in Fereldan, and by sparing Loghain you do not come off as a ruthless leader right off the bat, and do gain some favor with the commoners and Fereldan soldiers.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
I take it you were interested in preserving stability in Fereldan, and by sparing Loghain you do not come off as a ruthless leader right off the bat, and do gain some favor with the commoners and Fereldan soldiers.

My image was a primary motivator yes. But there are many other reasons. I rarely do somethign with one reason in mind.

[Costin_Razvan]

Getting a good relationship with Anora by sparing her father, keeping a good general of Fereldan alive. Showing mercy for mercy's sake.

Did I miss anything? Just like with the Collector base, it just makes sense to spare Loghain ( as it makes sense to preserver the base ).

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 04 octobre 2010 - 04:08 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Getting a good relationship with Anora by sparing her father, keeping a good general of Fereldan alive. Showing mercy for mercy's sake.

Did I miss anything? Just like with the Collector base, it just makes sense to spare Loghain ( as it makes sense to preserver the base ).

Also repaying a hero and giving him a second chance, I owe him this much. 
All those reasons of course don't have the same level of priority. Him being needed and my image are the most important two.

And preserving the base is even easier, I did it instantly. I can find rational compelling reasons to kill Loghain, Dain certainly did the smart thig. But I have to think a lot harder to justify destroying the base and even then, I can't find an adequate enough argument that wouldn't make me tear my hair out as Shepard says iin his annoying voice "na, we don't need it".

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 octobre 2010 - 04:15 .