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[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Getting a good relationship with Anora by sparing her father, keeping a good general of Fereldan alive. Showing mercy for mercy's sake.

Did I miss anything? Just like with the Collector base, it just makes sense to spare Loghain ( as it makes sense to preserver the base ).

Also repaying a hero and giving him a second chance, I owe him this much. 
All those reasons of course don't have the same level of priority. Him being needed and my image are the most important two.

And preserving the base is even easier, I did it instantly. I can find rational compelling reasons to kill Loghain, Dain certainly did the smart thig. But I have to think a lot harder to justify destroying the base and even then, I can't find an adequate enough argument that wouldn't make me tear my hair out as Shepard says iin his annoying voice "na, we don't need it".

Dunno about the base. Trusting the IM with it? Sorry for being OT. I just got flamed at the IMDB DAO board because clearly, the Tower Of Ishal was a trap set by Loghain and never mind the delayed signal, the flanking strategy ALWAYS works.

[Herr Uhl]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Getting a good relationship with Anora by sparing her father, keeping a good general of Fereldan alive. Showing mercy for mercy's sake.

Did I miss anything? Just like with the Collector base, it just makes sense to spare Loghain ( as it makes sense to preserver the base ).

No, not even remotely similar.

[Costin_Razvan]

Certainly if you are planning on ruling Fereldan then killing Loghain and Anora is certainly the smart move, but if you do not then it just make sense to place Anora on the throne and spare Loghain. Certainly Anora having no heir would be a problem, but it's not like she can't name someone to become her heir once she dies. An heir doesn't automatically become ruler in Fereldan, even if he/she is from the same lineage as the previous ruler.

As for the base....eh. The whole "We'll fight and win without it. I won't let fear compromise who I am." just sounds like Shepard is making himself look macho, as if he doesn't fear the possibility of the Reapers winning.

I just "facepalmed" when I saw it for the first time, only did it to check out. As for the whole "I won't sacrifice the soul of our species...." now that's just....

 Dunno about the base. Trusting the IM with it? Sorry for being OT

Trusting the only person in the entire Galaxy who will do whatever it takes to stop a threat only he and Shepard ( besides your crew ) is coming? Yeah sounds smart enough.

How about not destroying a cache of information about your greatest enemies?

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 04 octobre 2010 - 04:31 .

[Persephone]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

 Dunno about the base. Trusting the IM with it? Sorry for being OT

Trusting the only person in the entire Galaxy who will do whatever it takes to stop a threat only he and Shepard ( besides your crew ) is coming? Yeah sounds smart enough.

How about not destroying a cache of information about your greatest enemies?

I dunno. The IM and Cerberus have done things in ME1 and ME2 that I find to be disgusting. Their racist attitude doesn't help either. I usually cut ties with Cerberus ASAP.

[Elhanan]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Oh, so it's all personal game for you? People who make Bhelen king are naive fools I take it?

Excuse me there, but I do not care much for personal revenge. ( To copy a favorite quote from Kpax: The expression an eye for an eye is known throughout the Universe for it's stupidity ) If Bhelen was indeed going to make the situation worse for Orzammar then I would have killed him, but since he is driven by the desire to make it better ( and for personal power ) then I place him as a king.

As for Howe, regardless of what is said as rumors in game. Why should I CARE for the Couslands and the Alienage as a Dwarf Noble?

Personal? Not at all. One I learned of my Dwarven brothers deception, and how he planned to eridicate all those that could interfere with his future plans, at the very least I would have been able to apply said lessons to Howe and stop him before he stops me. You call it mercy; some may call it ignorance of lessons learned.

Personal revenge is not neded to want to remove Howe. Justice, preventive action, self defense, social or racial superiority, etc; motives are plentiful.  I could care less for Bhelen in this thread one way or another; has no merit in the discussion other than the one mentioned of background.

As for Howe, why you would wish to save him is beyond me; not motives for wanting him dead. My only reason to spare him death at the Estate would be to see him seen tried publically, or in this case, to be used as a tool to stop another Blight on mankind. EDIT: my bad; wrong topic. Same for sparing Loghain other than he is of a more zealous mind; not as corrupt.

Modifié par Elhanan, 04 octobre 2010 - 04:39 .

[Costin_Razvan]

And the Alliance and Council are really that much better. Oh wait.



If you want to go freelance, then ye I suppose it would be a smart to cut all ties with Cerberus. But to spit on your single ally is just foolish to me. As for the racist attitude, huh? What part did you miss about Kelly and Miranda saying that Cerberus is looking out for humanity?



I have said it before and I will say it again. Cerberus is only doing what the other species are doing themselves.

[Persephone]

Elhanan wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Oh, so it's all personal game for you? People who make Bhelen king are naive fools I take it?

Excuse me there, but I do not care much for personal revenge. ( To copy a favorite quote from Kpax: The expression an eye for an eye is known throughout the Universe for it's stupidity ) If Bhelen was indeed going to make the situation worse for Orzammar then I would have killed him, but since he is driven by the desire to make it better ( and for personal power ) then I place him as a king.

As for Howe, regardless of what is said as rumors in game. Why should I CARE for the Couslands and the Alienage as a Dwarf Noble?

Personal? Not at all. One I learned of my Dwarven brothers deception, and how he planned to eridicate all those that could interfere with his future plans, at the very least I would have been able to apply said lessons to Howe and stop him before he stops me. You call it mercy; some may call it ignorance of lessons learned.

Personal revenge is not neded to want to remove Howe. Justice, preventive action, self defense, social or racial superiority, etc; motives are plentiful.  I could care less for Bhelen in this thread one way or another; has no merit in the discussion other than the one mentioned of background.

As for Howe, why you would wish to save him is beyond me; not motives for wanting him dead. My only reason to spare him death at the Estate would be to see him seen tried publically, or in this case, to be used as a tool to stop another Blight on mankind.

I'd have preferred a trial for Howe. The Warden constantly taking the law into his own hands (Because people would totally sanction a shadow organization murdering a corrupt politician nowadays...) isn't something that I'd call justice.

[Persephone]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

And the Alliance and Council are really that much better. Oh wait.

If you want to go freelance, then ye I suppose it would be a smart to cut all ties with Cerberus. But to spit on your single ally is just foolish to me. As for the racist attitude, huh? What part did you miss about Kelly and Miranda saying that Cerberus is looking out for humanity?

I have said it before and I will say it again. Cerberus is only doing what the other species are doing themselves.

Did you play ME1? Miranda is a loyalist. She'll leave Cerberus in a heartbeat if you have her loyalty and destroy the base. Kelly is an idealist IMO. But I'll try saving the base in my next playthrough to see what happens. Maybe I'm wrong.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Persephone wrote...
I dunno. The IM and Cerberus have done things in ME1 and ME2 that I find to be disgusting. Their racist attitude doesn't help either. I usually cut ties with Cerberus ASAP.

I don't want to the thread to go off topic. But just a quick obejction.
Cerberus is not racist. Some of its members might be racist, but all those we personally deal with, including TIM, do not display any racism.

They are human survivalists and they seek human interests, yes. And they (or at least TIM) seek to make humanity the most powerful force in the galaxy, yes. That does not mean they think aliens are inferior or humans are racially superior.

[Costin_Razvan]

Personal? Not at all. One I learned of my Dwarven brothers deception, and how he planned to eridicate all those that could interfere with his future plans, at the very least I would have been able to apply said lessons to Howe and stop him before he stops me. You call it mercy; some may call it ignorance of lessons learned.

He plans to eradicate them? No, there is no evidence to suggest that Bhelen goes on a killing spree, but rather that he is sending the sons of House Harrowmont to fight on the surface. In my opinion Bhelen was planning to establish his dominance over the nobility, not slaughter them.

That's the way I would see inducting Howe in the order. If he could not be put in his place, then I would assassinate him, or exile him to another country.

 Did you play ME1? Miranda is a loyalist. She'll leave Cerberus in a heartbeat if you have her loyalty and destroy the base. Kelly is an idealist IMO

I did play ME1. Though if you think I care about Toombs and the other marines in such a way that it would affect the decisions I make in ME2, then no it does not.

Maybe using Miranda was a poor argument on my part...M "ahem" DAT ASS is really not the greatest person to judge people by. DAT ASS has the personality of a teenager, so yeah go figure.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 04 octobre 2010 - 04:46 .

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Persephone wrote...
I dunno. The IM and Cerberus have done things in ME1 and ME2 that I find to be disgusting. Their racist attitude doesn't help either. I usually cut ties with Cerberus ASAP.

I don't want to the thread to go off topic. But just a quick obejction.
Cerberus is not racist. Some of its members might be racist, but all those we personally deal with, including TIM, do not display any racism.

They are human survivalists and they seek human interests, yes. And they (or at least TIM) seek to make humanity the most powerful force in the galaxy, yes. That does not mean they think aliens are inferior or humans are racially superior.

Sorry about the OTness. I guess we'll know for sure in ME3.

So, Loghain....er, yes, Loghain.

What do you guys think of the "The Tower of Ishal clearly was a setup" theory? (And wasn't it confirmed to be untrue?)

[Elhanan]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

He plans to eradicate them? No, there is no evidence to suggest that Bhelen goes on a killing spree, but rather that he is sending the sons of House Harrowmont to fight on the surface. In my opinion Bhelen was planning to establish his dominance over the nobility, not slaughter them.

That's the way I would see inducting Howe in the order. If he could not be put in his place, then I would assassinate him, or exile him to another country.

Trian; dead. The Warden; exiled to the Deep Roads w/o trial. Harrowmont after gaining the crow; executed, unless one has imagination. Etc. The final act of Bhelen I kinda hope to hear about is that he dies quietly in his sleep watched over by his bride while she protects their son.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Persephone wrote...
What do you guys think of the "The Tower of Ishal clearly was a setup" theory? (And wasn't it confirmed to be untrue?)

Yes, it's confirmed as false.

It's as ridiculous as other theories that claimed that Loghain was controlled by the Archdemon.

Although I am curious as to how the Archdemon found out about it. We know that Wardens, especially old ones, can hear the Archdemon better. So conversely, the Archdemon must hear and sense them better. I theorise that the Archdemon learned of the plan from Duncan. 

Or there was simply an avenue of attack and the spawn took it without really knowing what they were doing.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 octobre 2010 - 04:54 .

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Persephone wrote...
What do you guys think of the "The Tower of Ishal clearly was a setup" theory? (And wasn't it confirmed to be untrue?)

Yes, it's confirmed as false.

It's as ridiculous as other theories that claimed that Loghain was controlled by the Archdemon.

Although I am curious as to how the Archdemon found out about it. We know that Wardens, especially old ones, can hear the Archdemon better. So conversely, the Archdemon must hear and sense them better. I theorise that the Archdemon learned of the plan from Duncan. 

Or there was simply an avenue of attack and the spawn took it without really knowing what they were doing.

I thought so. People are basing this on "But the Tower was inaccessible because Loghain said so." .....*Snorts*

Wait, there's a theory that Loghain was controlled by Archie? Loggy Haters keep surprising me.......

[Costin_Razvan]

Trian; dead. The Warden; exiled to the Deep Roads w/o trial. Harrowmont after gaining the crow; executed, unless one has imagination. Etc. The final act of Bhelen I kinda hope to hear about is that he dies quietly in his sleep watched over by his bride while she protects their son.

Trian's death and the Warden's exile were all part of a plot to gain power, killing Harrowmont after he had proven to be a threat to his rule was to show that he was indeed as ruthless as he was indicating in his campaign to gain the throne.

But to suggest that he goes on a killing spree among the nobility is stretching it out a lot. It would be foolish of him to do so. I would like to figure how he would retain his throne if he did that.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 04 octobre 2010 - 04:57 .

[Elhanan]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Trian's death and the Warden's exile were all part of a plot to gain power, killing Harrowmont after he had proven to be a threat to his rule was to show that he was indeed as ruthless as he was indicating in his campaign to gain the throne.

But to suggest that he goes on a killing spree among the nobility is stretching it out a lot. It would be foolish of him to do so. I would like to figure how he would retain his throne if he did that.

For them, he simply disbands the Assembly, or at least that we do know. But this is also the main reason I save Bhelen in any of my campaigns.

Now back to Loghain....

[Sarah1281]

CalJones wrote...

Meeting Howe as a non-HN is about as perplexing as a non-dwarf being asked to pick a king in Orzammar.

I actually had no problem with that. Anora couldn't get out of the room until the mage with Howe was either dead or persuaded to drop the force-field. Howe had kidnapped and tortured several people under questionable circumstances showing that he was not a nice guy. Howe attacks you on sight. I didn't have to personally feel one way or another about his death, it was something that had to happen because everyone insisted I save Anora and saving her required getting to that mage. Howe wouldn't get out of the way.

[Aeowyn]

If you speak to the guard standing outside the Tower before the battle doesn't he say something that there's a new "hole in the ground and we're investigating it. It wasn't there before."?

I honestly still don't get why people are so persistent on blaming Loghain for the loss. Cailan was foolish enough to fight in the front lines despite Loghain's warnings and considering how many darkspawn there were at that Battle, I doubt Duncan would have lived.

He was clearly injured before he got killed and even if Loghain and his armies would have gone through with the plan who's to say he still wouldn't have gotten his head chopped off or died from his injuries?

[Elhanan]

Aeowyn wrote...

If you speak to the guard standing outside the Tower before the battle doesn't he say something that there's a new "hole in the ground and we're investigating it. It wasn't there before."?
I honestly still don't get why people are so persistent on blaming Loghain for the loss. Cailan was foolish enough to fight in the front lines despite Loghain's warnings and considering how many darkspawn there were at that Battle, I doubt Duncan would have lived.
He was clearly injured before he got killed and even if Loghain and his armies would have gone through with the plan who's to say he still wouldn't have gotten his head chopped off or died from his injuries?

So it was a bad plan? I have my doubts as it was agreed to all by those present in the War Council. And Loghain withdrew before both the King and Duncan were overwhelmed, so we will never know what would have happened if he had kept his word, his oath, and his allegiance to the crown and throne.

No; his greatest mistake was in allowing the cameras to capture his betrayal for cutscenes.....

[Costin_Razvan]

Agreed by all? Loghain thought that Cailan had no place on the battlefield, and the guard at the gate says that Loghain has his doubts the troops will be enough to win the battle.

[Persephone]

Aeowyn wrote...

If you speak to the guard standing outside the Tower before the battle doesn't he say something that there's a new "hole in the ground and we're investigating it. It wasn't there before."?
I honestly still don't get why people are so persistent on blaming Loghain for the loss. Cailan was foolish enough to fight in the front lines despite Loghain's warnings and considering how many darkspawn there were at that Battle, I doubt Duncan would have lived.
He was clearly injured before he got killed and even if Loghain and his armies would have gone through with the plan who's to say he still wouldn't have gotten his head chopped off or died from his injuries?

The game implies a lot of things that David Gaider only debunked later. "Yes, Cailan. A glorious moment, for us all." comes across as rather smug if you WANT to see it that way. He doesn't look particularly distressed when leaving the field. Even though he CAN look distressed  ("I want to LOSE nothing else.....") Him putting a bounty on the Wardens while you travel with an emotionally distraught Alistair. The game follows a rather old formula in that regard. Sadly.

[Persephone]

Elhanan wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

If you speak to the guard standing outside the Tower before the battle doesn't he say something that there's a new "hole in the ground and we're investigating it. It wasn't there before."?
I honestly still don't get why people are so persistent on blaming Loghain for the loss. Cailan was foolish enough to fight in the front lines despite Loghain's warnings and considering how many darkspawn there were at that Battle, I doubt Duncan would have lived.
He was clearly injured before he got killed and even if Loghain and his armies would have gone through with the plan who's to say he still wouldn't have gotten his head chopped off or died from his injuries?

So it was a bad plan? I have my doubts as it was agreed to all by those present in the War Council. And Loghain withdrew before both the King and Duncan were overwhelmed, so we will never know what would have happened if he had kept his word, his oath, and his allegiance to the crown and throne.

No; his greatest mistake was in allowing the cameras to capture his betrayal for cutscenes.....

Loghain clearly does not agree. Neither does Uldred.

[Elhanan]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Agreed by all? Loghain thought that Cailan had no place on the battlefield, and the guard at the gate says that Loghain has his doubts the troops will be enough to win the battle.

But all knew of the plans, and as some have mentioned, certain parties (eg; Duncan & the Wardens) were not required to fight other than that they had given their word. But to them, it meant something of worth, as they were willing to die to keep it.

But to Loghain, it was a means to an end of his choosing. And he chose poorly.

[Persephone]

Elhanan wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Agreed by all? Loghain thought that Cailan had no place on the battlefield, and the guard at the gate says that Loghain has his doubts the troops will be enough to win the battle.

But all knew of the plans, and as some have mentioned, certain parties (eg; Duncan & the Wardens) were not required to fight other than that they had given their word. But to them, it meant something of worth, as they were willing to die to keep it.

But to Loghain, it was a means to an end of his choosing. And he chose poorly.

Willing to die to keep it. Hmmmmmmm........ Romantic idea. Hardly practical, however.

[Aeowyn]

Elhanan, from what I gather the cutscene with Duncan and Cailan happens straight after Loghain leaves. I'm not sure where the injuries came from, but Duncan was definitely injured.

If Loghain entered the battle field, would they have made it to Cailan's rescue in time? Doubt it. And from how I interpreted it, Duncan was dying either way.

Besides, he'd already begun to have nightmares again and would've no doubt gone for his Calling shortly afterwards.