12857 réponses à ce sujet

[Elhanan]

Aeowyn wrote...

Elhanan, from what I gather the cutscene with Duncan and Cailan happens straight after Loghain leaves. I'm not sure where the injuries came from, but Duncan was definitely injured.
If Loghain entered the battle field, would they have made it to Cailan's rescue in time? Doubt it. And from how I interpreted it, Duncan was dying either way.
Besides, he'd already begun to have nightmares again and would've no doubt gone for his Calling shortly afterwards.

We have a report given to the Noble found in Howe's dungeon that states the withdraw was made before the armiy was overwhelmed.

As for Duncan, I would have grabbed a pinch of Ashes for him, too; my personal choice for the Calling as well.

[Giggles_Manically]

Ostagar is to grey to judge fully though.

We dont have exact numbers, or details really to nail it down.



Although:

Loghain admits that the battle might not be won.

In RTO the quest giver says that Calian didnt think it could be won.

Gaider says that the Loghain decided to leave after he saw more darkspawn.

Everyone says that there were more darkspawn then expected.

etc...



While there is no real definitive proof as to what would have happened if Loghain would have charged, he did the sound thing and pulled back instead of wasting his army on a maybe.

[Wulfram]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

While there is no real definitive proof as to what would have happened if Loghain would have charged, he did the sound thing and pulled back instead of wasting his army on a maybe.

Instead he condemned the other part of the army to die on a maybe.

[Giggles_Manically]

I know that Bioware likes to reuse VO artists but its wierd hearing Loghain everywhere!

In ME2 I keep having to remind myself that Han Gerrel and Dr Archer are not Loghain.



Its so wierd to be playing Overlord and all of the sudden hearing someone who sounds like Loghain warn me about Geth.



That being said I love listening to Han Gerrel describe Tali's father. It almost comes off like Loghain talking about Maric.

[Persephone]

Wulfram wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

While there is no real definitive proof as to what would have happened if Loghain would have charged, he did the sound thing and pulled back instead of wasting his army on a maybe.

Instead he condemned the other part of the army to die on a maybe.

One "Maybe" saved half the army. The other "maybe" might have killed them ALL: Hmmmmmmm.........

[Giggles_Manically]

Wulfram wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

While there is no real definitive proof as to what would have happened if Loghain would have charged, he did the sound thing and pulled back instead of wasting his army on a maybe.

Instead he condemned the other part of the army to die on a maybe.

Sadly it is war, and Loghain had to decide between losing half of the army, or ALL the army on a risk.
I did it a few times in Rome Total War. Even though I remind myself that they are just pixels it still smarts having to withdraw and leave them behind.

Its military tactics that he was using, honor on the battlefield dosent count for much if it gets your head loped off.

[Elhanan]

Persephone wrote...

One "Maybe" saved half the army. The other "maybe" might have killed them ALL: Hmmmmmmm.........

Or one Maybe might have saved the majority, the Wardens, and the King. But that would have opposed the point of the retreat after all. Hmmmm....

[Giggles_Manically]

Elhanan wrote...

Persephone wrote...

One "Maybe" saved half the army. The other "maybe" might have killed them ALL: Hmmmmmmm.........

Or one Maybe might have saved the majority, the Wardens, and the King. But that would have opposed the point of the retreat after all. Hmmmm....

You cant decide things on a maybe.
Especially when a battle is going on.

[Elhanan]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

Persephone wrote...

One "Maybe" saved half the army. The other "maybe" might have killed them ALL: Hmmmmmmm.........

Or one Maybe might have saved the majority, the Wardens, and the King. But that would have opposed the point of the retreat after all. Hmmmm....

You cant decide things on a maybe.
Especially when a battle is going on.

But is that not what Loghain supposedly chose? To save half of the army on a Maybe?

You right though; best stick to the plan especially when their is a loss of comuunication. And in this case, it appears that the plan was to withdraw.

[Wulfram]

Persephone wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

While there is no real definitive proof as to what would have happened if Loghain would have charged, he did the sound thing and pulled back instead of wasting his army on a maybe.

Instead he condemned the other part of the army to die on a maybe.

One "Maybe" saved half the army. The other "maybe" might have killed them ALL: Hmmmmmmm.........

One maybe meant disobeying orders, betraying his King and sparking a civil war.  The other might have struck a major blow against the blight.

[Giggles_Manically]

Wulfram wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

While there is no real definitive proof as to what would have happened if Loghain would have charged, he did the sound thing and pulled back instead of wasting his army on a maybe.

Instead he condemned the other part of the army to die on a maybe.

One "Maybe" saved half the army. The other "maybe" might have killed them ALL: Hmmmmmmm.........

One maybe meant disobeying orders, betraying his King and sparking a civil war.  The other might have struck a major blow against the blight.

You are using maybes in your reasoning as well.

Ostagar was not a battle that looked winnable from the brief overhead shot we got.
Its a bad position, any plan that does not leave an easy exit strategy is.

[Elhanan]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

You are using maybes in your reasoning as well.

Ostagar was not a battle that looked winnable from the brief overhead shot we got.
Its a bad position, any plan that does not leave an easy exit strategy is.

Looked winnable for both Alsistair and the Warden, at least in some origins where the Warden has such strategic knowledge. Looked winnable for Ser Cauthrian, as she was ordered into the retreat

But again, we will never know other than it would not have a 50 hr game otherwise.

[Sarah1281]

Looked winnable for both Alsistair and the Warden, at least in some origins where the Warden has such strategic knowledge. Looked winnable for Ser Cauthrian, as she was ordered into the retreat

Cauthrien said nothing of the sort. She was just concerned about Cailan. You can't say that the Warden did or did not feel any which way as that's up to the player and players can assume any number of things that aren't true so the Warden's testimony is really nothing more than your own and Alistair was on top of a freaking tower not paying the slightest attention to the battle (if he could even see it) as he had a beacon to light and was then promptly overwhelmed. Additionally, since when has Alistair shown any signs of having any strategic skill that we can take his assessment seriously?

[Elhanan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Cauthrien said nothing of the sort. She was just concerned about Cailan. You can't say that the Warden did or did not feel any which way as that's up to the player and players can assume any number of things that aren't true so the Warden's testimony is really nothing more than your own and Alistair was on top of a freaking tower not paying the slightest attention to the battle (if he could even see it) as he had a beacon to light and was then promptly overwhelmed. Additionally, since when has Alistair shown any signs of having any strategic skill that we can take his assessment seriously?

Alistair may or may not have the expertise to determine it, but he does state it to Flemeth, and the Warden does not appear to disagree thru dialogue. And then the choice to take his perspective seriously is up to the indv Player. I choose to do so; others do not. Again, he may not be correct, but it still stated within the game that everyone does not agree with Loghain's choice to flee... er, stragically retreat.

Modifié par Elhanan, 04 octobre 2010 - 06:33 .

[Aeowyn]

Elhanan wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Cauthrien said nothing of the sort. She was just concerned about Cailan. You can't say that the Warden did or did not feel any which way as that's up to the player and players can assume any number of things that aren't true so the Warden's testimony is really nothing more than your own and Alistair was on top of a freaking tower not paying the slightest attention to the battle (if he could even see it) as he had a beacon to light and was then promptly overwhelmed. Additionally, since when has Alistair shown any signs of having any strategic skill that we can take his assessment seriously?

Alistair may or may not have the expertise to determine it, but he does state it to Flemeth, and the Warden does not appear to disagree thru dialogue. And then the choice to take his perspective seriously is up to the indv Player. I choose to do so; others do not. Again, he may not be correct, but it still stated within the game that everyone does not agree with Loghain's choice to flee... er, stragically retreat.

I'm sorry but you're not seriously using that argument to say that lots of people thought the battle could be won. Just because we weren't given the option to disagree it doesn't mean we agree.

[CalJones]

I took Alistair's comments to Flemeth as meaning the previous battles. Also, the fact he's upset and grieving will skew his judgement a fair bit.

Certainly, it wasn't possible for the Warden or Alistair to see the battle from the tower since there were no windows that I could see. That may be down to poor level design, however.

[Wulfram]

The truth is, we've probably got even less information than what Loghain was acting on, which makes judging the wisdom of his actions pretty difficult.



If Loghain was acting purely by military logic, then we'd probably have to defer to his reasoning, since he is a great general. So the question becomes whether we can trust that his motives were pure - and both Ser Cauthrien and Anora seem to doubt them.

[Elhanan]

Aeowyn wrote...

I'm sorry but you're not seriously using that argument to say that lots of people thought the battle could be won. Just because we weren't given the option to disagree it doesn't mean we agree.

Nope; am saying that THIS person is using it to agree. Others may silently disagree as they will. This just makes it easier for me to stay focused upon Loghain for the entire game, and make my call for judgement as I am able.

[Elhanan]

CalJones wrote...

I took Alistair's comments to Flemeth as meaning the previous battles. Also, the fact he's upset and grieving will skew his judgement a fair bit.
Certainly, it wasn't possible for the Warden or Alistair to see the battle from the tower since there were no windows that I could see. That may be down to poor level design, however.

We both had the oversight when crossing the bridge, at the very least.

[Persephone]

Elhanan wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

I'm sorry but you're not seriously using that argument to say that lots of people thought the battle could be won. Just because we weren't given the option to disagree it doesn't mean we agree.

Nope; am saying that THIS person is using it to agree. Others may silently disagree as they will. This just makes it easier for me to stay focused upon Loghain for the entire game, and make my call for judgement as I am able.

You're basing your judgment on the words on an untrained (In strategy & warfare, he is a templar!), inexperienced boy who is grieving and seething? Who did not see the battlefield? Who only sees his personal loss? Seriously? 

[Persephone]

Elhanan wrote...

CalJones wrote...

I took Alistair's comments to Flemeth as meaning the previous battles. Also, the fact he's upset and grieving will skew his judgement a fair bit.
Certainly, it wasn't possible for the Warden or Alistair to see the battle from the tower since there were no windows that I could see. That may be down to poor level design, however.

We both had the oversight when crossing the bridge, at the very least.

And it surely did not look good to my Warden. The cutscene of the battle shows a soldier flinching and even Cailan looks doubtful at the sight of the much larger horde.

[Elhanan]

Persephone wrote...

You're basing your judgment on the words on an untrained (In strategy & warfare, he is a templar!), inexperienced boy who is grieving and seething? Who did not see the battlefield? Who only sees his personal loss? Seriously? 

Seriously.

Prove to me me he is untrained. He is a Templar, reared in a Noble home, and was known to be the son of Maric. Yes, I can see how easily he could have evaded lessons of strategy and tactics in his short lifetime.

But as long as you know how he thinks and feels, I can rest easier that I will always be wrong....

[Addai]

Elhanan wrote...

Alistair may or may not have the expertise to determine it, but he does state it to Flemeth, and the Warden does not appear to disagree thru dialogue.

I took Alistair's statement to Flemeth to be referring to the earlier battles.  You were in the Tower, you can't have known how the final battle was progressing.  In fact your view from the Tower, in light of the Tower itself being infiltrated, is that the forces of good are in deep sh*t.

Modifié par Addai67, 04 octobre 2010 - 07:20 .

[CalJones]

Have to agree with Persephone. Eamon didn't set out to train him to be a spare king in case Cailan kicked the bucket - Alistair was more of an embarrassing secret to be kept out of sight. He may have had some rudimentary tactics training as a templar but much of the training he got would have related to how to deal with mages and such. He wasn't there long enough to get the full training - he never made full templar so I can't see how they would have trained him for any sort of command position. Put bluntly, Alistair was a noober. And then he got conscripted into the Wardens, where he remained a noober until the warden replaced him as most junior.

As for the battle, you run across the bridge right at the beginning. I'm not sure how long it's supposed to take you to light the beacon but the battlefield would have changed by the point you reached the top of the tower. The only hint you get as to how long it would have taken is Alistair saying that you'd surely missed the signal by now.

Certainly, when you do run across the bridge, the archers there are almost all killed by ballistas or what have you, and all but a couple of the tower guards are dead. I doubt it'd look too good on the ground.

[Persephone]

Elhanan wrote...

Persephone wrote...

You're basing your judgment on the words on an untrained (In strategy & warfare, he is a templar!), inexperienced boy who is grieving and seething? Who did not see the battlefield? Who only sees his personal loss? Seriously? 

Seriously.

Prove to me me he is untrained. He is a Templar, reared in a Noble home, and was known to be the son of Maric. Yes, I can see how easily he could have evaded lessons of strategy and tactics in his short lifetime.

But as long as you know how he thinks and feels, I can rest easier that I will always be wrong....

He never finished his templar training. He is untrained in strategy and warfare. He grew up sheltered and with little education outside the chantry.