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[Zjarcal]

What I would like to know is how exactly did this Alistair discussion came about? The last post was Godfather related before someone started talking about Alistair... I'm confused.

EDIT: Damn, that doesn't bode well for this thread staying on topic!

Modifié par Zjarcal, 05 octobre 2010 - 03:25 .

[Sarah1281]

Zjarcal wrote...

What I would like to know is how exactly did this Alistair discussion came about? The last post was Godfather related before someone started talking about Alistair... I'm confused.

EDIT: Damn, that doesn't bode well for this thread staying on topic!

I think it was a matter of someone claiming that Alistair being raised by Eamon, who by all accounts wouldn't even let him stay in the castle, meant that he had all sorts of military training and he had a great view of the battle during Ostagar so when he insists afterwards that Cailan almost won we can trust this to be a statement of fact or, at the very least, an expert opinion.

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Did this whole spate of Alistair-bashing come about because we're debating his comments to Flemeth? It doesn't matter whether or not he has the military training to make a judgment about the battle- the point is that he had limited information, as everyone does. It's only natural and is also one way the writers keep us guessing. Everyone has their own angle.

I don't think we're trying to bash Alistair, just to point out exactly what you said. His claiming that Cailan almost won and thus Loghain is the most evil person ever doesn't make it so because he had a horrible view of the battle and may not have had training on strategy and tactics.

Which then got into a discussion about whether or not he's qualified to lead etc.  But his training is also irrelevant.  Even assuming he actually was talking about the final battle (I don't think he was- I interpret his statement as referring to the earlier battles which had all gone well), he couldn't have known what was going on on the battlefield.  If you can't see the battle, it doesn't matter what a military genius you are.

[Elhanan]

And some keep taking their eyes off the target.

It does not matter if Alistair is proficient at leadership, military strategy, tactics, etc. He is another witness, as is the Warden, Wynne, etc of Loghain leaving before the King is overwhelmed by the Darkspawn. And when Loghain fails to have them disgraced and killed, he is later forced into the Landsmeet.

He is of more noble character than his dog, Howe. But again, I try and hold better stanndards for pets.

[CalJones]

That's how I interpreted his comment, too. After all, when you first meet Cailan with Duncan, you hear about how they've won the past few battles fairly easily.

[CalJones]

Of course, to sympathise with that viewpoint, you'd have to agree that leaving Cailan to the mercy of the darkspawn was a bad thing.

There's also the neutral view that Loghain had to leave in order to prevent the entire army from being massacred in an impossible battle.

And there's the view that Cailan was a fool who had no business being king and Fereldan is better off without him.

(Given that Gaider revealed the plotline where Cailan was intent on dumping Anora to marry Celene, with the likely outcome that Fereldan would have become a vassal state of Orlais, I have to agree that Fereldan needed Cailan like a hole in the head. But even without that plotline, he still comes across as a gigantic idiot).

[Elhanan]

CalJones wrote...

That's how I interpreted his comment, too. After all, when you first meet Cailan with Duncan, you hear about how they've won the past few battles fairly easily.

Which is brought into doubt by Duncan while speaking to the Warden before we even meet Alistair. Possible, but not probable, IMO.

[Zjarcal]

CalJones wrote...

Of course, to sympathise with that viewpoint, you'd have to agree that leaving Cailan to the mercy of the darkspawn was a bad thing.
...
And there's the view that Cailan was a fool who had no business being king and Fereldan is better off without him.

Soooo true.

Idiot King is idiot.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 05 octobre 2010 - 04:02 .

[Elhanan]

But the idiot is still the King, which Duncan understands. Loghain decides to remove him for whatever reason, thus it is regicide.

[CalJones]

He doesn't "remove" him at all. He leaves him to die. There's a distinction. It wasn't pre-meditated - after all he did suggest to Cailan that fighting on the front lines was a ****** move and Cailan chose to ignore him.

The king died in battle, plain and simple - a victim of his own bravado. Whether Loghain might have saved him had he charged is still debatable.

Modifié par CalJones, 05 octobre 2010 - 04:12 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Elhanan wrote...

But the idiot is still the King, which Duncan understands. Loghain decides to remove him for whatever reason, thus it is regicide.

If I saw someone leading a group of people to their doom, then you can damn well certain his life expectancy just went down. Even if he was my boss/king.

There comes a time when listening to an idiot is over, and you get rid of him.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Don't people get tired of repeating the same nonsense over and over again?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 05 octobre 2010 - 04:19 .

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Don't people get tired to repeating the same nonsense over and over again?

I am.
The Loghain haters keep trying to show that Loghain is evil,even though they are using the SAME arguments over and over again.

[CalJones]

Indeed. Time for a picture. It's October...almost time for this...







(By Aimo)

[Elhanan]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

If I saw someone leading a group of people to their doom, then you can damn well certain his life expectancy just went down. Even if he was my boss/king.

There comes a time when listening to an idiot is over, and you get rid of him.

Loghain's choice and move, too. Thing is, it is still murder.

He could have waited for Oleasian troops as Cailan suggested. Or perhaps he could have conceived a better plan. But his foolish hatred of Orlais was as mind grabbing as was Cailan's dreams of fighting a dragon. In the end, both lost their lives.

And what if Ser Cauthrian thought Loghain was wrong, and had ordered the men to attack? Would she be guilty of disobeying her commander? Yes, at least initially. If they had survived the fracus, Loghain could have brought charges, I believe.

Same goes for LOghain, he betrayed his place, and usurped the plans that were started in motion. His plans; his failures; his crimes.

[Sarah1281]

It does not matter if Alistair is proficient at leadership, military strategy, tactics, etc. He is another witness, as is the Warden, Wynne, etc of Loghain leaving before the King is overwhelmed by the Darkspawn. And when Loghain fails to have them disgraced and killed, he is later forced into the Landsmeet.

Simply being at Ostagar does not automatically make you a witness to Loghain leaving before Cailan is overwhelmed. It makes you a witness to Cailan not charging which everyone freely admits. Alistair can't see Cailan. You can't see Cailan. Wynne cannot personally see Cailan or she would have been close enough to save him. Duncan looks up to see the beacon being lit after Cailan died. Loghain wasn't even supposed to charge until then.

He could have waited for Oleasian troops as Cailan suggested.

Waiting or not was not Loghain's call. It was Cailan. Cailan chose not to wait which makes his suggestion that they wait more of a 'shut up, Loghain' than anything else.

Or perhaps he could have conceived a better plan.

If he had to come up with a plan that involved only their current forces, an actual battle, and that location then what, besides moving Cailan, could he have done differently? And Cailan was the one to force those conditions on him.

[alschemid]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Don't people get tired of repeating the same nonsense over and over again?

Don't think they are yet... but I'm tired of reading it all over and over and over and over again.

[Giggles_Manically]

Elhanan wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

If I saw someone leading a group of people to their doom, then you can damn well certain his life expectancy just went down. Even if he was my boss/king.

There comes a time when listening to an idiot is over, and you get rid of him.

Loghain's choice and move, too. Thing is, it is still murder.

He could have waited for Oleasian troops as Cailan suggested. Or perhaps he could have conceived a better plan. But his foolish hatred of Orlais was as mind grabbing as was Cailan's dreams of fighting a dragon. In the end, both lost their lives.

And what if Ser Cauthrian thought Loghain was wrong, and had ordered the men to attack? Would she be guilty of disobeying her commander? Yes, at least initially. If they had survived the fracus, Loghain could have brought charges, I believe.

Same goes for LOghain, he betrayed his place, and usurped the plans that were started in motion. His plans; his failures; his crimes.

You actually think that Calian was right?
He was an imbecile who was so obsessed with glory, he was a child in a mans body who never grew up.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...
You actually think that Calian was right?
He was an imbecile who was so obsessed with glory, he was a child in a mans body who never grew up.

He was king, right or wrong. <_<

And yay, we are back at why Loghain refused Orlesian reinforcements, despite it being the politically prudent thing to do. Especially after it's clear that Celene was planing something.

[Sarah1281]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...
You actually think that Calian was right?
He was an imbecile who was so obsessed with glory, he was a child in a mans body who never grew up.

He was king, right or wrong. <_<

And yay, we are back at why Loghain refused Orlesian reinforcements, despite it being the politically prudent thing to do. Especially after it's clear that Celene was planing something.

What I don't understand is why people insist that Cailan genuinely wanted Orlesian reinforcements and, as king, was somehow being forced by Loghain to fight a battle Loghain didn't want to fight instead.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...
What I don't understand is why people insist that Cailan genuinely wanted Orlesian reinforcements and, as king, was somehow being forced by Loghain to fight a battle Loghain didn't want to fight instead.

Cailan was just using the Orlesians as a way to arm twist Loghain.
He refused waiting for reinforcements from Eamon because they would steal his thunder. He wouldn't have waited for the Orlesians.

[Monica21]

Elhanan wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

If I saw someone leading a group of people to their doom, then you can damn well certain his life expectancy just went down. Even if he was my boss/king.

There comes a time when listening to an idiot is over, and you get rid of him.

Loghain's choice and move, too. Thing is, it is still murder.

Your definition of murder is incredibly ridiculous and beyond ignorant. Not only do you not care what it actually means, you keep trying to impose a false definition on an act that no sane person would call murder. Your definition renders the rest of your arguments invalid, because you prove that you don't know what you're talking about with your very first conclusion. Everything that follows can be ignored.

[Hrodric]

A 148 pages for Loghain... wow.

All this for a man that:
1. hired an apostate to poison the Arl of Redcliff--a noble of high standing
2. had the Circle of Magi nearly destroyed by abominations and demons
3. conspired to eliminate the Templar order
4. sold his own countrymen as slaves to the Tevinter Imperium in order to fund his coup d'etat
5. imprisoned the Queen of Ferelden against her wishes
6. illegally usurped the Throne as he tried to get other races to recognize him as king
7. set up the King of Ferelden and the Gray Wardens into an ambush by darkspawn that the king would not survive
8. had others kill and torture any surviving Gray Wardens during a Blight

and he did all this because "he loved his country?" No, he did it because he feared Orlais more than the Blight due to his massive fixation over his own navel.

King Cailan was more the "patriot" by making the true "hard choice" of recognizing (maybe he was just lucky) that the Blight is a far graver threat than Orleasian Gray Wardens--who were coming to help fight the very darkspawn that had been only attacking Fereldans!

The catharsis I got out of killing Rendon Howe was not something I would deprive my brother-in-arms and rightful King of Ferelden: I let Alistair give Loghain a death that the treacherous, murdering, slavering, failed-farmer-boy didn't deserve.

Regarding the Battle of Ostagar:
No doubt the King and the allies would have won the day--Loghain's forces would have caught the darkspawn from the flank. However, unless the Archdemon had shown itself in that battle, the Blight would not have been stopped at the conclusion of the fight.

Modifié par Hrodric, 05 octobre 2010 - 06:14 .

[Elhanan]

Monica21 wrote.....

Your definition of murder is incredibly ridiculous and beyond ignorant. Not only do you not care what it actually means, you keep trying to impose a false definition on an act that no sane person would call murder. Your definition renders the rest of your arguments invalid, because you prove that you don't know what you're talking about with your very first conclusion. Everything that follows can be ignored.

Not being a lawyer, this'll do:

http://www.reference...rder?&qsrc=2890

My guess is that the act of regicide by Ogre falls into depraved indifference or some such, but what do you expect from me; right?

Modifié par Elhanan, 05 octobre 2010 - 06:19 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Elhanan wrote...
but what do you expect from me; right?

After all this time, I can safetly say we expect very little.