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[Giggles_Manically]

Hrodric wrote...

A 148 pages for Loghain... wow.

All this for a man that:
1. hired an apostate to poison the Arl of Redcliff--a noble of high standing
2. had the Circle of Magi nearly destroyed by abominations and demons
3. conspired to eliminate the Templar order
4. sold his own countrymen as slaves to the Tevinter Imperium in order to fund his coup d'etat
5. imprisoned the Queen of Ferelden against her wishes
6. illegally usurped the Throne as he tried to get other races to recognize him as king
7. set up the King of Ferelden and the Gray Wardens into an ambush by darkspawn that the king would not survive
8. had others kill and torture any surviving Gray Wardens during a Blight

and he did all this because "he loved his country?" No, he did it because he feared Orlais more than the Blight due to his massive fixation over his own navel.

King Cailan was more the "patriot" by making the true "hard choice" of recognizing (maybe he was just lucky) that the Blight is a far graver threat than Orleasian Gray Wardens--who were coming to help fight the very darkspawn that had been only attacking Fereldans!

The catharsis I got out of killing Rendon Howe was not something I would deprive my brother-in-arms and rightful King of Ferelden: I let Alistair give Loghain a death that the treacherous, murdering, slavering, failed-farmer-boy didn't deserve.

Regarding the Battle of Ostagar:
No doubt the King and the allies would have won the day--Loghain's forces would have caught the darkspawn from the flank. However, unless the Archdemon had shown itself in that battle, the Blight would not have been stopped at the conclusion of the fight.

Wow you happen to win the award for biggest and most failed Loghain hater of the day!
Dont you feel special!

2) ULDRED destroyed the circle by himself.
3)He at no point did anything to destroy the templars, only ones that got in his way. Which is like one.
5)HOWE imprisoned Anora, by himself.

Ostagar is to grey to judge and to be honest you sound like Calian.
Even if by some GLORIOUS miracle they won the battle, they would not win the ones that would have followed.

[Monica21]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Elhanan wrote...
but what do you expect from me; right?

After all this time, I can safetly say we expect very little.

Indeed.

[Elhanan]

Monica21 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Elhanan wrote...
but what do you expect from me; right?

After all this time, I can safetly say we expect very little.

Indeed.

And here I thought you were going to ignore me. But then, you are a fan of Loghain, so your word may mean nothing....

[Giggles_Manically]

Elhanan wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Elhanan wrote...
but what do you expect from me; right?

After all this time, I can safetly say we expect very little.

Indeed.

And here I thought you were going to ignore me. But then, you are a fan of Loghain, so your word may mean nothing....

And youre a hater who keeps regurgitating the same views that every other hater has, and that we have all seen.
So youre words are equally meaningless bub.

[CalJones]

So, Elhanan, let's say you see someone being beaten up by a gang of thugs. You could rush in to try and save them, but there are a lot of them, and chances are they'd kick the crap out of you too. So you stay out of it. You later find out the person died. Does that make you a murderer?

[Wulfram]

CalJones wrote...

So, Elhanan, let's say you see someone being beaten up by a gang of thugs. You could rush in to try and save them, but there are a lot of them, and chances are they'd kick the crap out of you too. So you stay out of it. You later find out the person died. Does that make you a murderer?

Had the person attacked the thugs based on the promise of your support?

[Monica21]

Elhanan wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Elhanan wrote...
but what do you expect from me; right?

After all this time, I can safetly say we expect very little.

Indeed.

And here I thought you were going to ignore me. But then, you are a fan of Loghain, so your word may mean nothing....

When did I say I was going to ignore you? I said your arguments can be ignored, which is different from ignoring the person.

And really? You've attempted to turn liking Loghain into a lame personal attack? Fail.

[Elhanan]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

And youre a hater who keeps regurgitating the same views that every other hater has, and that we have all seen.
So youre words are equally meaningless bub.

Not a hater. I actually have agreed with the original title and tone of this thread, and believe that Loghain may be the richest, deepest, and most well scripted character and villain I have seen in any CRPG.

Where I tend to alter paths is that I fail to admire a character as bent and fallen as this one, or side with those that like those tendancies in the personality.

[Hrodric]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Hrodric wrote...

A 148 pages for Loghain... wow.

All this for a man that:
1. hired an apostate to poison the Arl of Redcliff--a noble of high standing
2. had the Circle of Magi nearly destroyed by abominations and demons
3. conspired to eliminate the Templar order
4. sold his own countrymen as slaves to the Tevinter Imperium in order to fund his coup d'etat
5. imprisoned the Queen of Ferelden against her wishes
6. illegally usurped the Throne as he tried to get other races to recognize him as king
7. set up the King of Ferelden and the Gray Wardens into an ambush by darkspawn that the king would not survive
8. had others kill and torture any surviving Gray Wardens during a Blight

and he did all this because "he loved his country?" No, he did it because he feared Orlais more than the Blight due to his massive fixation over his own navel.

King Cailan was more the "patriot" by making the true "hard choice" of recognizing (maybe he was just lucky) that the Blight is a far graver threat than Orleasian Gray Wardens--who were coming to help fight the very darkspawn that had been only attacking Fereldans!

The catharsis I got out of killing Rendon Howe was not something I would deprive my brother-in-arms and rightful King of Ferelden: I let Alistair give Loghain a death that the treacherous, murdering, slavering, failed-farmer-boy didn't deserve.

Regarding the Battle of Ostagar:
No doubt the King and the allies would have won the day--Loghain's forces would have caught the darkspawn from the flank. However, unless the Archdemon had shown itself in that battle, the Blight would not have been stopped at the conclusion of the fight.

Wow you happen to win the award for biggest and most failed Loghain hater of the day!
Dont you feel special!

2) ULDRED destroyed the circle by himself.
3)He at no point did anything to destroy the templars, only ones that got in his way. Which is like one.
5)HOWE imprisoned Anora, by himself.

Ostagar is to grey to judge and to be honest you sound like Calian.
Even if by some GLORIOUS miracle they won the battle, they would not win the ones that would have followed.

2) Please, play the game in full to gain the rationale behind Uldred's actions.
3) See comment #2
5) You already made me laugh at your Loghain-Fan-Boi of the Year comments earlier--don't further embarrass yourself with this one.

Please explain (if you can muster the brain cells) how it would have been a "miracle" to win at Ostagar with the professional armies of the King, other nobles (including your Luv-Boi, Loghain), the Circle of Magi, and a platoon of Gray Wardens when a ragged, half-manned, make-shift army did just that against the Archdemon itself with just 3 Gray Wardens.

Regards,

[KnightofPhoenix]

Wulfram wrote...

CalJones wrote...

So, Elhanan, let's say you see someone being beaten up by a gang of thugs. You could rush in to try and save them, but there are a lot of them, and chances are they'd kick the crap out of you too. So you stay out of it. You later find out the person died. Does that make you a murderer?

Had the person attacked the thugs based on the promise of your support?

After she warned him time and time again not to and to stop being an idiot?

[Giggles_Manically]

Hrodric wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Hrodric wrote...

A 148 pages for Loghain... wow.

All this for a man that:
1. hired an apostate to poison the Arl of Redcliff--a noble of high standing
2. had the Circle of Magi nearly destroyed by abominations and demons
3. conspired to eliminate the Templar order
4. sold his own countrymen as slaves to the Tevinter Imperium in order to fund his coup d'etat
5. imprisoned the Queen of Ferelden against her wishes
6. illegally usurped the Throne as he tried to get other races to recognize him as king
7. set up the King of Ferelden and the Gray Wardens into an ambush by darkspawn that the king would not survive
8. had others kill and torture any surviving Gray Wardens during a Blight

and he did all this because "he loved his country?" No, he did it because he feared Orlais more than the Blight due to his massive fixation over his own navel.

King Cailan was more the "patriot" by making the true "hard choice" of recognizing (maybe he was just lucky) that the Blight is a far graver threat than Orleasian Gray Wardens--who were coming to help fight the very darkspawn that had been only attacking Fereldans!

The catharsis I got out of killing Rendon Howe was not something I would deprive my brother-in-arms and rightful King of Ferelden: I let Alistair give Loghain a death that the treacherous, murdering, slavering, failed-farmer-boy didn't deserve.

Regarding the Battle of Ostagar:
No doubt the King and the allies would have won the day--Loghain's forces would have caught the darkspawn from the flank. However, unless the Archdemon had shown itself in that battle, the Blight would not have been stopped at the conclusion of the fight.

Wow you happen to win the award for biggest and most failed Loghain hater of the day!
Dont you feel special!

2) ULDRED destroyed the circle by himself.
3)He at no point did anything to destroy the templars, only ones that got in his way. Which is like one.
5)HOWE imprisoned Anora, by himself.

Ostagar is to grey to judge and to be honest you sound like Calian.
Even if by some GLORIOUS miracle they won the battle, they would not win the ones that would have followed.

2) Please, play the game in full to gain the rationale behind Uldred's actions.
3) See comment #2
5) You already made me laugh at your Loghain-Fan-Boi of the Year comments earlier--don't further embarrass yourself with this one.

Please explain (if you can muster the brain cells) how it would have been a "miracle" to win at Ostagar with the professional armies of the King, other nobles (including your Luv-Boi, Loghain), the Circle of Magi, and a platoon of Gray Wardens when a ragged, half-manned, make-shift army did just that against the Archdemon itself with just 3 Gray Wardens.

Regards,

Listen little boy and learn:
Uldred was possessed by a pride demon, and tried to turn the mages into mosters, Loghain just wanted their support.
Anora went to confront Howe and he imprisoned her, when she accused him.
You are on obvious idiot if you seem to believe that Ostagar was winnable when we are told by people in the game all over that it was not.

Please try to act with some intelligence, or get your mother to type it up for you, but in game there are more sides to things, and guess what,  NO ONE outside of yourself here even cares what you think.

I dont at least. Maybe you should go back and play with you luv boi Alistair rather then waste time here.
Also I have beaten the game 15 times, with 4 more PT running.

 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ugh, did it have to turn ugly?

Just yesterday this thread was awesome (partially thanks to my sig).

[CalJones]

Well, point is, no, you wouldn't be a murderer. You'd probably feel awful about it - you might even feel guilty, but you'd also know deep down you could also be dead now if you hadn't walked away. But there's no way a court of law would convict you of murder - not in a million years. The thugs killed the person in question, not you.

This is how I view Loghain's decision to leave Ostagar. He's not a regicide. He didn't kill the king, nor did he orchestrate the king's death. He simply decided to withdraw and save his men.

[Monica21]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ugh, did it have to turn ugly?
Just yesterday this thread was awesome (partially thanks to my sig).

Which sig? Don't you have something like 7 rotating ones now?

[Hrodric]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Hrodric wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Hrodric wrote...

A 148 pages for Loghain... wow.

All this for a man that:
1. hired an apostate to poison the Arl of Redcliff--a noble of high standing
2. had the Circle of Magi nearly destroyed by abominations and demons
3. conspired to eliminate the Templar order
4. sold his own countrymen as slaves to the Tevinter Imperium in order to fund his coup d'etat
5. imprisoned the Queen of Ferelden against her wishes
6. illegally usurped the Throne as he tried to get other races to recognize him as king
7. set up the King of Ferelden and the Gray Wardens into an ambush by darkspawn that the king would not survive
8. had others kill and torture any surviving Gray Wardens during a Blight

and he did all this because "he loved his country?" No, he did it because he feared Orlais more than the Blight due to his massive fixation over his own navel.

King Cailan was more the "patriot" by making the true "hard choice" of recognizing (maybe he was just lucky) that the Blight is a far graver threat than Orleasian Gray Wardens--who were coming to help fight the very darkspawn that had been only attacking Fereldans!

The catharsis I got out of killing Rendon Howe was not something I would deprive my brother-in-arms and rightful King of Ferelden: I let Alistair give Loghain a death that the treacherous, murdering, slavering, failed-farmer-boy didn't deserve.

Regarding the Battle of Ostagar:
No doubt the King and the allies would have won the day--Loghain's forces would have caught the darkspawn from the flank. However, unless the Archdemon had shown itself in that battle, the Blight would not have been stopped at the conclusion of the fight.

Wow you happen to win the award for biggest and most failed Loghain hater of the day!
Dont you feel special!

2) ULDRED destroyed the circle by himself.
3)He at no point did anything to destroy the templars, only ones that got in his way. Which is like one.
5)HOWE imprisoned Anora, by himself.

Ostagar is to grey to judge and to be honest you sound like Calian.
Even if by some GLORIOUS miracle they won the battle, they would not win the ones that would have followed.

2) Please, play the game in full to gain the rationale behind Uldred's actions.
3) See comment #2
5) You already made me laugh at your Loghain-Fan-Boi of the Year comments earlier--don't further embarrass yourself with this one.

Please explain (if you can muster the brain cells) how it would have been a "miracle" to win at Ostagar with the professional armies of the King, other nobles (including your Luv-Boi, Loghain), the Circle of Magi, and a platoon of Gray Wardens when a ragged, half-manned, make-shift army did just that against the Archdemon itself with just 3 Gray Wardens.

Regards,

Listen little boy and learn:
Uldred was possessed by a pride demon, and tried to turn the mages into mosters, Loghain just wanted their support.
Anora went to confront Howe and he imprisoned her, when she accused him.
You are on obvious idiot if you seem to believe that Ostagar was winnable when we are told by people in the game all over that it was not.

Please try to act with some intelligence, or get your mother to type it up for you, but in game there are more sides to things, and guess what,  NO ONE outside of yourself here even cares what you think.

I dont at least. Maybe you should go back and play with you luv boi Alistair rather then waste time here.
Also I have beaten the game 15 times, with 4 more PT running.

 

Aww, did I make the lil boi crai... did you crai a lil when the object of your affection got called a name? Aww... so very sad. So very, very sad. 



I'm still waiting for your analysis on the battle at Ostagar--with bated breath!

Modifié par Hrodric, 05 octobre 2010 - 07:06 .

[Monica21]

Hrodric wrote...
Aww, did I make the lil boi crai... did you crai a lil when the object of your affection got called a name? Aww... so very sad. So very, very sad. 



I'm still waiting for your analysis on the battle at Ostagar--with baited breath!

It's "bated" breath. Unless you're putting fish hooks in your mouth.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Monica21 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ugh, did it have to turn ugly?
Just yesterday this thread was awesome (partially thanks to my sig).

Which sig? Don't you have something like 7 rotating ones now?

The KoP minion army sig in parcticular

[Hrodric]

Monica21 wrote...

Hrodric wrote...
Aww, did I make the lil boi crai... did you crai a lil when the object of your affection got called a name? Aww... so very sad. So very, very sad. 



I'm still waiting for your analysis on the battle at Ostagar--with baited breath!

It's "bated" breath. Unless you're putting fish hooks in your mouth.

It's what happens when I type in l33t speak first--good catch.

[Zjarcal]

@Hrodric:



If you're going to resort to insults then it's pointless to argue with you. At least the other Loghain haters can do their "hating" without insulting the people on the other side of the argument.

[Monica21]

Hrodric wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Hrodric wrote...
Aww, did I make the lil boi crai... did you crai a lil when the object of your affection got called a name? Aww... so very sad. So very, very sad. 



I'm still waiting for your analysis on the battle at Ostagar--with baited breath!

It's "bated" breath. Unless you're putting fish hooks in your mouth.

It's what happens when I type in l33t speak first--good catch.

So maybe just type like a normal person, instead of attempts at ridicule.

[Zjarcal]

Monica21 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ugh, did it have to turn ugly?
Just yesterday this thread was awesome (partially thanks to my sig).

Which sig? Don't you have something like 7 rotating ones now?

No, no, that's me! Actually I lost count of how many I have in rotation. And I plan to add more!

[Hrodric]

Zjarcal wrote...

@Hrodric:

If you're going to resort to insults then it's pointless to argue with you. At least the other Loghain haters can do their "hating" without insulting the people on the other side of the argument.

I do not recall my first post containing any insults. I am still waiting for someone to come out and explain away how a general that shirks his duties on the battlefield and gets the ruler killed in action is a "hero." I don't figure the "well, the president is a silly-head" would go far in the court-martial--at least not in the real world.

The tears of the other kid--well, that was just icing on the cake. I'll ignore him since he really doesn't have an argument to make--for the sake of discussion and what-ifs scenarios. Deal?

[Monica21]

Hrodric wrote...
I do not recall my first post containing any insults. I am still waiting for someone to come out and explain away how a general that shirks his duties on the battlefield and gets the ruler killed in action is a "hero." I don't figure the "well, the president is a silly-head" would go far in the court-martial--at least not in the real world.

There are 140+ pages of discussion on Loghain, but here's an attempt to sum up some of our arguments:

- Loghain didn't make the decision to leave until after the beacon was lit, per Gaider
- Loghain did not orchestrate the battlefield loss so that Cailan would die, per Gaider
- Loghain attempted to keep Cailan from the front lines, per in-game dialogue
- Loghain retreated because the horde was too large, per Gaider
- A tactical retreat to save half your army is not "shirking one's duty", per any military standard
- Loghain's duty is to Ferelden and not to his king, per Loghain and Maric

Modifié par Monica21, 05 octobre 2010 - 07:31 .

[Hrodric]

Monica21 wrote...

Hrodric wrote...
I do not recall my first post containing any insults. I am still waiting for someone to come out and explain away how a general that shirks his duties on the battlefield and gets the ruler killed in action is a "hero." I don't figure the "well, the president is a silly-head" would go far in the court-martial--at least not in the real world.

There are 140+ pages of discussion on Loghain, but here's an attempt to sum up some of our arguments:

- Loghain didn't make the decision to leave until after the beacon was lit, per Gaider
- Loghain did not orchestrate the battlefield loss so that Cailan would die, per Gaider
- Loghain attempted to keep Cailan from the front lines, per in-game dialogue
- Loghain retreated because the horde was too large, per Gaider
- A tactical retreat to save half your army is not "shirking one's duty", per any military standard
- Loghain's duty is to Ferelden and not to his king, per Loghain and Maric

Finally, a serious, well-thought out response; thank you, Monica.

Thoughts:
1. I'm sure the first point deals with the 'premeditated' and 'calculated' accusations; not sure it would save him from court-martial, but it's something.
2. I am not sure I agree with this one. His forces were to flank the enemy and make them fight on two fronts. His absence kept the king's forces trapped. He didn't have to "orchestrate" anything; the darkspawn were doing all the dirty work for him. All he had to do was not turn up to guarantee defeat and seal the deal.

The 3rd-5th point are interesting to me because here is where there appears to be a very bad circular reasoning loop (with Loghain's rationale--not yours).

I'll try to explain the perceived inconsistency below:

Modifié par Hrodric, 05 octobre 2010 - 09:19 .

[Sarah1281]

@Hrodric: This is a huge thread. It is one of many. We've been over each and every one of those points, heard the rebuttals, and kept debating it. People may or may not choose to get into it AGAIN but please don't assume that if you're not going to read the answers that have already been posted time and time again that there's an obligation to indulge your desire to start from scratch.