12857 réponses à ce sujet

[CalJones]

Hrodic: to save some time, I'll just refer you to the definitive Loghain thread and, specifically, David Gaider's answer to the Ostagar question.

There's more from him on the following page also.

You might have noticed that this is a Loghain appreciation thread, so we do tend to be rather defensive here, and we don't apologise for that. Most of us have been arguing these points for up to a year so we are a little battle fatigued. However, terms like "Luv-Boi" make you appear like an adolescent Avril Lavigne fan. A little more eloquence would create a better impression and thus a less hostile reception.

[Hrodric]

To Sarah and CalJones:

I find it rather silly to be defensive about a fictional character. The thread title says "deepest character;" not "We Loghain," after all.



I, for one, was glad to have Loghain as an antagonist in the game and pondered the believability of the psychology and motivations of the character. It was certainly fun to have him in the game; I just stop short from joining the WWLD bracelet club.



But, perhaps after 150 pages and a year of battle fatigue--maybe there isn't much more to discuss about this character in the series.



Thanks to Monica anyways.

[Sarah1281]

I'm not feeling particularly defensive, just a little tired of this. Did you know that there are two Loghain arguments going on on the front page right now? And it keeps popping up in the Howe thread? And that this thread can't go one freaking weak without someone posting an 'Everything that ever went wrong in the entire game is ALL LOGHAIN'S FAULT' comment? And that your post pretty much had everything Loghain did in the entire game (well, your perspective of it and I disagree with most of it) thus meaning addressing it would take FOREVER?

[Monica21]

Hrodric wrote...

To Sarah and CalJones:
I find it rather silly to be defensive about a fictional character. The thread title says "deepest character;" not "We

I, for one, was glad to have Loghain as an antagonist in the game and pondered the believability of the psychology and motivations of the character. It was certainly fun to have him in the game; I just stop short from joining the WWLD bracelet club.

But, perhaps after 150 pages and a year of battle fatigue--maybe there isn't much more to discuss about this character in the series.

Thanks to Monica anyways.

It is much more a case of battle fatigue than anything else. Not to mention the debates on Loghain's motives and character have been raging since release. This thread is only a bit more than a month old. There is quite a lot in this thread the "somthing I've noticed" thread on this same page. Not saying no one will respond to you, but I will admit to not looking forward to going over the same ground again.

[Zjarcal]

Hrodric wrote...

To Sarah and CalJones:
I find it rather silly to be defensive about a fictional character. The thread title says "deepest character;" not "We

I, for one, was glad to have Loghain as an antagonist in the game and pondered the believability of the psychology and motivations of the character. It was certainly fun to have him in the game; I just stop short from joining the WWLD bracelet club.

But, perhaps after 150 pages and a year of battle fatigue--maybe there isn't much more to discuss about this character in the series.

Thanks to Monica anyways.

Yeah, about the thread title, we sort of hijacked this thread (since it was one of the few positive Loghain threads) as the "Loghain appreciation thread". So it's understandable why there would be some confusion for people that are new to the thread.

For the record, no one blames you for not being a Loghain fan. Hey, to each their own. It's just that, as was mentioned, the Loghain debate has been done so many times by most of the regulars in this thread, that it does get tiresome, especially since the people involved in the debate never reach a consensus.

Right now there's another Loghain thread floating around, and just last week a debate was still taking place in another thread. Both of them are a case of back and forth and back and forth ad infinitum. That's the reason why personally, I just avoid getting into the debates. The other regulars in this thread have a lot more resilience for the discussion, something for which I admire them.

EDIT: Yikes, I was double ninja'd.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 05 octobre 2010 - 09:52 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Hrodric wrote...
Please explain  how it would have been a "miracle" to win at Ostagar with the professional armies of the King, other nobles (including your Luv-Boi, Loghain), the Circle of Magi, and a platoon of Gray Wardens when a ragged, half-manned, make-shift army did just that against the Archdemon itself with just 3 Gray Wardens.

Disregarding the fact that our army in Denerim could have been potentially more powerful than that of Ostagar, the argument is invalid for a very simple reason. The ONLY reason you won at Denerim is because you killed the Archdemon. We see that the darkspawn flee immediately after its death, obviously because we know that the darkspawn can only be organised under it. Otherwise, they would have probably won.
At Ostagar, there was no Archdemon to kill, to neutralise the entire darkspawn army.

So the comparision is invalid.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 05 octobre 2010 - 10:13 .

[Costin_Razvan]

As someone with knowledge of military tactics, I can safely say that fighting a Blight is possibly one of the worst kind of situations a general might find himself in: Fighting against an enemy that knows no fear, has vastly superior numbers, does not tire or need to eat or drink, that sickens your soldiers and the very land and with the only way to stop them by killing their leader after he has constantly worn you down.

Not to defend Loghain's ignorance....but I do not think ANY general would be willing to accept without cold hard facts that he is about to fight such a war, it's bloody nightmare.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 05 octobre 2010 - 11:37 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Its like dealing with endless Zerg rushes, where you have to kill one single specific unit that may or may not show up, but until it does you will constantly be dealing with an endless swarm of foes.



I think I just got a little sick inside at that though.

[Carmen_Willow]

Please forgive me if this has already been discussed - this is a huge thread and I may have missed it. I don't wish to debate whether or not Loghain was a hero a villain or an anti-hero. I merely wanted to add a possible unconscious motivation for his decision at Ostagar one of which he may not have been cognizant.



SPOILER WARNING:









In THE STOLEN THRONE, we discover that Loghain deeply loved Maric's future wife, Rowan. I would suggest that even though he encouraged her to marry Maric and fullfill her role as Queen, a part of him would have wanted her to say "to hell with that" and run off with him.



Being the man that he was, Loghain kept his feelings of loss, jealousy and rage in check our of his sense of duty and his love for both Rowan and Maric. However, a part of him would have hated them both as well. It could not have been easy for him to look at Cailan and know that the woman he loved had been with another man in order to have this child. No man wants to know that.



So long as Cailan treated Loghain with the respect that Loghain felt was his due, the Teryn was able to keep his darker feelings in check. But when Cailan began to rebel, when Cailan began to ignore his advice and dismiss it and when Cailan appeared to be planning to divorce his daughter, I would suggest that Loghain's darker feelings of rage bubbled up on that night at Ostagar He saw not the child of two people he loved, but the living symbol of everthing he'd lost. The rage he felt at Cailan's parents albiet unconscious rage, was projected onto the ungrateful, rebellious young man who looked so much like the man who stole Loghain's most loved Rowan.



It was easy for him in that context to let Cailan die. Loghain's military and political reality dovetailed very nicely with his rage, long held in check, unleashed.



Just a thought.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Eh no. I don't think that's Loghain, imho. Cailan is his daughter's husband, I don't see him being motivated by this in the slightest. Nice thought though.

[TJPags]

Carmen_Willow wrote...

Please forgive me if this has already been discussed - this is a huge thread and I may have missed it. I don't wish to debate whether or not Loghain was a hero a villain or an anti-hero. I merely wanted to add a possible unconscious motivation for his decision at Ostagar one of which he may not have been cognizant.

SPOILER WARNING:




In THE STOLEN THRONE, we discover that Loghain deeply loved Maric's future wife, Rowan. I would suggest that even though he encouraged her to marry Maric and fullfill her role as Queen, a part of him would have wanted her to say "to hell with that" and run off with him.

Being the man that he was, Loghain kept his feelings of loss, jealousy and rage in check our of his sense of duty and his love for both Rowan and Maric. However, a part of him would have hated them both as well. It could not have been easy for him to look at Cailan and know that the woman he loved had been with another man in order to have this child. No man wants to know that.

So long as Cailan treated Loghain with the respect that Loghain felt was his due, the Teryn was able to keep his darker feelings in check. But when Cailan began to rebel, when Cailan began to ignore his advice and dismiss it and when Cailan appeared to be planning to divorce his daughter, I would suggest that Loghain's darker feelings of rage bubbled up on that night at Ostagar He saw not the child of two people he loved, but the living symbol of everthing he'd lost. The rage he felt at Cailan's parents albiet unconscious rage, was projected onto the ungrateful, rebellious young man who looked so much like the man who stole Loghain's most loved Rowan.

It was easy for him in that context to let Cailan die. Loghain's military and political reality dovetailed very nicely with his rage, long held in check, unleashed.

Just a thought.

Interesting.  I'm not much into psychology, but it sounds reasonable.

[Monica21]

Carmen_Willow wrote...
It was easy for him in that context to let Cailan die. Loghain's military and political reality dovetailed very nicely with his rage, long held in check, unleashed.

I actually think the opposite. I think he would have abhorred letting Rowan's only child die, because he did loved her.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Monica21 wrote...

Carmen_Willow wrote...
It was easy for him in that context to let Cailan die. Loghain's military and political reality dovetailed very nicely with his rage, long held in check, unleashed.

I actually think the opposite. I think he would have abhorred letting Rowan's only child die, because he did loved her.

Plus, I think he got over it. It's been more than 2 decades. Cailan is all that is left from his best friend Maric and his old love Rowan. I don't think he wanted him to die at all, but was prepared to make the hard choice, as always, for Ferelden's sake.

Except when he sees in the letters in RtO perhaps.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 octobre 2010 - 03:13 .

[EnchantedEyes1]

I won't lie, the thought crossed my mind at one time briefly. However, Loghain does not strike me as a man who blames others for his choices or his fortune. He became involved with Rowan knowing full well she was bethrothed to Maric - and Maric's dalliance aside - I suspect he always knew the time would come for them to part. I also don't feel that Loghain would have seen Maric as stealing Rowan. Maric made it clear early on that he was only interested in Rowan as a friend, nothing more.  But of course all these points are subjective on my part given what I think I understand about his character.

I would almost go so far as to say that Loghain's love of Ferelden surpasses any love he might have for any woman - except maybe Anora.

Nothing I read in either of the books or saw in the game led me to really consider this as a reason for leaving Ostagar. Just my $.02

[Carmen_Willow]

See, I think he suppressed it, but I don't think he got over it...and I think Cailan's disrespect of his daughter (and the idea that he may divorce her) would have pushed him nearer the edge. As to him not wanting to hurt Cailan because he was Rowan's son, I would suggest that it often works the opposite way. He was more likely to feel rage against Maric's son than love for Rowan's son.

Males tend to destroy offspring of potential mates unless the offspring are also their own. Sadly, the statistics about child abuse perpetrated by step-fathers tend to support the idea that this is true for humans as well. (Please know I am not saying ALL step-fathers or even MOST step-fathers -- just that stepfathers are more likely to abuse than natural fathers.)

Modifié par Carmen_Willow, 06 octobre 2010 - 03:22 .

[phaonica]

I don't know. I don't remember Loghain expressing any rage towards Maric, Rowan, or Cailan over their relationships. He believes in duty, and even if duty did sometimes anger him, Ostagar seems like really bad timing to forget all that and let your emotions get away from you. And even if he had, I think if he had an inkling that he had done such a thing, he would eventually admit it (to someone with warm approval). If you say it's 'unconscious' rage, then that's an easy way to say that it exists without any evidence.

edit: And Loghain didn't know about Cailan divorcing Anora until RtO, so that couldn't have influenced the decision.

Modifié par phaonica, 06 octobre 2010 - 03:24 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Loghain was the one who made Rowan marry Maric, when he didn't want to. He knew what he was doing and he knew they will have an heir. I don't think it fits Loghain's character to embrace a petty hatred of something of his own doing. He was able to stomp on his love and heart for Ferelden's sake. I don't see him failing to do that with petty hatred (that I don't think ever existed) when Ferelden is in peril.

But that's just my interpretation of the character.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 octobre 2010 - 03:26 .

[Carmen_Willow]

My contention is that because Loghain is basically a good man, he would have pushed these dark feelings down and away. And it would have been easier for him to do so when Maric, whom he truly loved as a brother was alive. But I seriously doubt that he felt the same way about Cailan.



I've just always wondered why someone as intelligent as Loghain would make such a mistake. To paraphrase Flemeth, Men's hearts hold secrets darker than any darkspawn.

[TJPags]

Monica21 wrote...

Carmen_Willow wrote...
It was easy for him in that context to let Cailan die. Loghain's military and political reality dovetailed very nicely with his rage, long held in check, unleashed.

I actually think the opposite. I think he would have abhorred letting Rowan's only child die, because he did loved her.

See, this sounds reasonable too.

I'm just not smart enough on psychology to have an opinion.

Modifié par TJPags, 06 octobre 2010 - 03:29 .

[Monica21]

Carmen_Willow wrote...

My contention is that because Loghain is basically a good man, he would have pushed these dark feelings down and away. And it would have been easier for him to do so when Maric, whom he truly loved as a brother was alive. But I seriously doubt that he felt the same way about Cailan.

I've just always wondered why someone as intelligent as Loghain would make such a mistake. To paraphrase Flemeth, Men's hearts hold secrets darker than any darkspawn.

Well, I think this possible reason only comes into play if you believe Loghain made a mistake at Ostagar, and I don't believe he did.

[Carmen_Willow]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Loghain was the one who made Rowan marry Maric, when he didn't want to. He knew what he was doing and he knew they will have an heir. I don't think it fits Loghain's character to embrace a petty hatred of something of his own doing. He was able to stomp on his love and heart for Ferelden's sake. I don't see him failing to do that with petty hatred (that I don't think ever existed) when Ferelden is in peril.

But that's just my interpretation of the character.

The most common reason for murder is revenge for mate poaching.  I know that Loghain made Rowan marry Maric -- but that was his head talking!  Doing what you THINK is right can have terrible consequences when it conflicts with your feelings.

And being forced to watch the woman you love be someone else's wife is not, in my opinion a "petty hatred."  It's is a major motivation for everthing from murder to war(I'm thinking Troy here). 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Carmen_Willow wrote...
The most common reason for murder is revenge for mate poaching.  I know that Loghain made Rowan marry Maric -- but that was his head talking!  Doing what you THINK is right can have terrible consequences when it conflicts with your feelings.

And being forced to watch the woman you love be someone else's wife is not, in my opinion a "petty hatred."  It's is a major motivation for everthing from murder to war(I'm thinking Troy here). 

It becomes petty when you are the one who force them to marry. And Troy was for honor, a wife running from her husband king for another man, is not the same as Loghain convincing Rowan to marry Maric.

Loghain's primary feelings are for Ferelden and that's what pushed him to sacrifice his own personal happiness. Because of his feelings and love for Ferelden. So it's not only his head.
I am sorry, I really don't see Loghain being like that.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 octobre 2010 - 03:35 .

[Hrodric]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Hrodric wrote...
Please explain  how it would have been a "miracle" to win at Ostagar with the professional armies of the King, other nobles (including your Luv-Boi, Loghain), the Circle of Magi, and a platoon of Gray Wardens when a ragged, half-manned, make-shift army did just that against the Archdemon itself with just 3 Gray Wardens.

Disregarding the fact that our army in Denerim could have been potentially more powerful than that of Ostagar, the argument is invalid for a very simple reason. The ONLY reason you won at Denerim is because you killed the Archdemon. We see that the darkspawn flee immediately after its death, obviously because we know that the darkspawn can only be organised under it. Otherwise, they would have probably won.
At Ostagar, there was no Archdemon to kill, to neutralise the entire darkspawn army.

So the comparision is invalid.

Thanks for the reply, mate, however I disagree with your assessment on the main point: the army at Denerim was clearly composed of the 'left-overs;' they were, in football parlance, the third string. There was a even a very moving scene where you see these civilians partly dressed in armor saying good-bye to their loved ones before heading to battle. That was done, of course, for dramatic effect to show the odds really stacked against the PC hero. 

At Denerim you had the left-over mages not caught in Uldred's coup, a sword-for-hire contingent left-over from the abomination and undead assault, the dwarves that decided to turn up on the surface and not stay behind to play more politics, and the Dalish elves that weren't wiped by the werewolf curse. It's almost as bad as having to fight with conscripted rather than volunteer soldiers in real life--trust me, you want the volunteers fighting in your unit.

Now, if you claim that the victory in Denerim was a miracle and that both battles should have resulted in routs in favor of the darkspawn--perhaps a case could be made for that.

Or, who knows, maybe fighting for Denerim was much more compelling than fighting in Ostagar--maybe the 'cornered-rat' theory holds here instead.

But, I would take my chances with the professional army. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Hrodric wrote...
At Denerim you had the left-over mages not caught in Uldred's coup, a sword-for-hire contingent left-over from the abomination and undead assault, the dwarves that decided to turn up on the surface and not stay behind to play more politics, and the Dalish elves that weren't wiped by the werewolf curse. It's almost as bad as having to fight with conscripted rather than volunteer soldiers in real life--trust me, you want the volunteers fighting in your unit.

Yes, but how many mages can we summon? 16 I believe (or was it 12?). And that's only what you can summon, the army probably has more. How many mages were at Ostagar? 7. In that sense, your army is definately superior.

Dwarves are highly experienced against the darkspawn (they've been fighting them for millenia), but you can argue that them fighting on unfamiliar ground reduces their effectiveness. I would say it balances itself out (and
in-game, they are pretty powerful). Plus, you might have Legionnaires fighting for you.
Also, you might have had golems, who are also very powerful.

About the elves, I agree with you, I don't think they were decisive. Neither would be the werewolves.

And also remember that you can finance and improve your army. Unfortunately what we had in-game was very rudementary. But still, you can donate a lot of gold (I donated 400+ sovereigns). Which is quite a lot. And judging from in-game, the redcliff mercenaries seem to have superior equipment than the rest.   

Hrodric wrote...
Now, if you claim that the victory in Denerim was a miracle and that both battles should have resulted in routs in favor of the darkspawn--perhaps a case could be made for that.

Or, who knows, maybe fighting for Denerim was much more compelling than fighting in Ostagar--maybe the 'cornered-rat' theory holds here instead.
But, I would take my chances with the professional army. 

Well miracle in the sense of cutting off the Blight's head. That was the whole point of the march to Denerim, to sieze the opportunity of the Archdemon finally revealing itself and strike at it (one wonders why it did show itself).

And your army is also made of professionals, though perhaps not entirely.
While the redcliff cutscene does show militias, the cutscenes at the battle itself show an army mostly made of professional well armed and armored men and women. Dwarves also have a professional army. Elves, we might hesitate to use that term.  If you have Templars, they too are an army and the only one that can fight both melee and ranged (too bad they lack numbers).

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 octobre 2010 - 04:29 .

[CalJones]

Regarding the Cailan question...it's an interesting hypothesis but I don't think it's correct. Rowan and Maric were the two people Loghain loved the most, and whilst his decision to have them marry would have been painful, I think he would have cared a great deal for Cailan, at least at first. I imagine his feelings towards the adult Cailan would have been disappointment rather than suppressed hatred, since Cailan doesn't seem to have inherited either of his parent's best qualities.